The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu

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The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu - 8/19/2002 11:51:58 AM

Capt. Pixel

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These are cool German tanks (avail 8'44)

The enhanced spotting ability allows for a spotting range of 500m regardless of night visibility range. You can sit there and pluck away at your opponent before they can even hope to spot you.

My understanding (which may be flawed :rolleyes: ) is that this 'night vision' system also required a truck mounted ultraviolet spotlight source to illuminate the target area. The tanks were fitted with UV receivers which then allowed them to target and fire on those 'illuminated' targets.

In the game, the Panther G Uhu can also see through large amounts of smoke. They can penetrate 200 to 250m of solid smoke (more if the visibility range is higher). This enhancement, plus smoke dischargers, retreating unit's smoke, etc. makes them a deadly opponent on any battlefield, Night or Day.

Can anyone answer these questions? Was the system used as I described above? Is the system actually able to penetrate smoke as I described? What does 'Uhu' mean?

They may be expensive, but a platoon of Panther G Uhu can easily carry the day. :cool:

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- Stonewall Jackson

Post #: 1

- 8/19/2002 12:35:24 PM

Ivan

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now if what you say is true. all that in this game. my next hotseat game will be interesting.
see i always thought that panther uhu was some sort of infantry tank that unlike most german tanks, could actually carry a squad of infantry on the deck

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Post #: 2

- 8/19/2002 5:09:15 PM

Vetkin

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I think some 'modern' (actually obsolete) tanks like T-62 ++ and above have Infrared Searchlights. These might be the 'illuminating' devices mounted on those trucks you're mentioning except they're now built-in. To my understanding, infrared doesn't penetrate through smoke, especially 'hot' smoke used by modern tanks these days.

I might be wrong though.

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Post #: 3

Uhu I believe means... - 8/19/2002 7:01:29 PM

Orzel Bialy

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"Owl" in German....as the AFV could "see in the dark".

In fact, it was the same nickname given to the He-219 nightfigter that saw limited service towards the end of the war...which was, of course, christened with that title for the same reason. :)

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Post #: 4

- 8/19/2002 7:24:18 PM

Vetkin

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I reread the post and it said UV as in ultraviolet, the other end of the spectrum... I don't know of any tanks who use this technology now...

I wonder though, if UV can see through smoke and IR can't, then why have most tanks switched to IR?

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Post #: 5

- 8/19/2002 7:46:41 PM

Hades

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Can't UV be blocked with lead, like Superman's vision?:D

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Post #: 6

- 8/19/2002 8:03:24 PM

Vetkin

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How very logical :D

Smoke (ie. exhaust) blocks IR

Lead blocks UV

Smoke from vehicles = leaded gas/diesel

Therefore: Smoke blocks UV AND IR :D

hehehehe

Anybody a scientist here?

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Post #: 7

- 8/19/2002 10:19:37 PM

Heide

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Here's the IR Panther:

[URL=http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther]PzKfw V Night vision[/URL]

[IMG]http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/p5fg_1.jpg[/IMG]

"In mid 1943, first tests with infrared night-vision (Nacht Jager) devices and telescopic rangefinders mounted on Panther started. Two different arrangements / solutions were created and used on Panther tanks.

Solution A - Sperber (Sparrow Hawk) was made up of one 30cm infrared searchlight (with range of 600m) and image converter operated by the commander - FG 1250. From late 1944 to March of 1945, some Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausf G (and other variants) mounted with FG 1250, were succesfully tested. From March to April of 1945, approximately 50 Panthers Ausf G (and other variants) mounted with FG 1250, saw combat service on the Eastern Front and Western Front. Panthers with IR operated with SdKfz.251/20 Uhu (Owl) half-track with 60cm infra-red searchlight and Sd.Kfz.251/21 Falke (Falcon). This solution could be easily mounted on any type of armored fighting vehicle.

Solution B - Second more complicated arrangement / solution was "Biwa" (Bildwandler), which provided driver, gunner and commander with one 30cm infrared searchlight (with range of 600m) and image converter. Various variants of Panthers were converted and mounted with "Biwa". It was reported that tests were successful, but there is very few combat reports from the Eastern or Western Front.

Various units received IR Panthers including 116th Panzer Division (3rd company of 24th Panzer Regiment, Western Front, Summer of 1944), Sixth SS Panzer Army (Hungary, early 1945), Panzer Division Muncheberg and Clausewitz. One combat report is by a veteran of 1st SS Panzer Regiment of 1st SS Panzer Division "LSSAH", who states that few Panthers equipped with infrared night-vision devices possibly from 116th Panzer Division were used in 1944/45 during the Ardennes Offensive. In April of 1945, Panthers equipped with IR equipment (solution B) joined Panzer Division Clausewitz and in mid April near Uelzen destroyed entire platoon of British Comet cruiser tanks. Also on April 21st of 1945, same Panthers overran an American anti-tank position on the Weser-Elbe Canal.

In addition, it is reported that single unit equipped with Jagdpanthers also received and used infrared night-vision devices.

Crews of infrared night-vision devices mounted vehicles were also armed with MP44 assault rifles fitted with infrared night-vision device - Vampir (Vampire)."

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- 8/20/2002 2:04:36 AM

Katana

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RE: UV/IR
The problem with UV is that, unlike IR, it's[PHP]always[/PHP]an 'active' system. Think of it as just a glorified searchlight, ie you may be able to see a little ahead, but everyone around will notice you.

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Post #: 9

- 8/20/2002 9:06:09 AM

G_X

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Sure, if they can see UV lights, or have White, or something that glows when struck by UV.

With Searchlights, all they have to do is look in your general direction.

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Post #: 10

- 8/20/2002 7:30:09 PM

jnievele

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Katana
[B]RE: UV/IR
The problem with UV is that, unlike IR, it's always an 'active' system. Think of it as just a glorified searchlight, ie you may be able to see a little ahead, but everyone around will notice you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, the same applies to the older IR systems, like the ones used on the Panthers.

Passive IR systems (thermal sights) were invented a lot later - in the 1970s, IIRC. Even in the early 1980s, US/Nato-tanks were still using either white or IR illuminators, usually mounted on the gun barrel in the form of a big green box that was opened at night.

Using UV of course would be VERY bad - it makes certain substances fluorescent, for example white clothes. Even worse, the glow-in-the-dark markers used for lots of stuff that normally can be only dimly seen in the dark light up like a christmas tree when exposed to UV light... tried it myself, got a roll of marker tape at home :-)

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- 8/20/2002 9:34:58 PM

Vetkin

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The most advanced special sight systems right now are thermal sights, i don't know how these work, but these are the things that show everything in green I think.

BTW what is a "stereoscopic coincidence rangefinder?" It was the technology used before using laser pulse rangefinders (now on virtually every tank)

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Post #: 12

- 8/20/2002 10:58:55 PM

Ivan

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but why is it called an infantry tank in spwaw*questionmark*

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Post #: 13

- 8/20/2002 11:04:05 PM

Kaakao

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Well maybe because it can spot infantry (and everything else) with ease...

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Post #: 14

- 8/20/2002 11:21:48 PM

Vetkin

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Maybe because it's meant for infantry support in the the dark, it has several MGs for anti-infantry and a main gun with HE and AP and APBC (I think)

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- 8/20/2002 11:58:29 PM

rbrunsman

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vetkin
BTW what is a "stereoscopic coincidence rangefinder?" It was the technology used before using laser pulse rangefinders (now on virtually every tank) [/B][/QUOTE]

It's an optical rangefinder which utilizes stereoscopic vision; it is essentially a large binoculars fitted with special reticles which allow a skilled user to superimpose the stereoscopic image formed by the pair of reticles over the images of the target seen in the eyepieces, so that the correct range is obtained when the reticle marks appear to be suspended over the target and at the same apparent distance. (Copied from my Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms.)

You've probably seen a picture of them in SPWAW unit info screen for some of the countries' FO units. They look like goofy binoculars.

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- 8/21/2002 6:51:48 PM

jnievele

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vetkin
[B]The most advanced special sight systems right now are thermal sights, i don't know how these work, but these are the things that show everything in green I think.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The colour is optional - I've seen the display in black/white and red/black, too.

The system has a detector for IR radiation (=heat) that usually is cooled either by liquid gasses or by electric cooling and is therefore much colder than the surrounding area. It's rather complicated and heavy, the smallest one I've seen so far was mounted on ATGM launchers (TOW and Milan), and it was like a very big telescopic sight with an electronics box attached.

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Post #: 17

- 8/21/2002 7:41:19 PM

Vetkin

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Arent' thermal sights almost the same as Image intensifiers (nV goggles)? what's the difference?

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Post #: 18

- 8/21/2002 8:01:49 PM

jnievele

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vetkin
[B]Arent' thermal sights almost the same as Image intensifiers (nV goggles)? what's the difference? [/B][/QUOTE]

Image intensifiers require light to work. It doesn't have to be much, the stars on a moonless sky are more than enough, but there has to be at least a little bit of light. Alternatively, they can use IR lights, because IR gets displayed just like normal light - but it has to be an active source of light.

Thermal sights don't require any external light or IR source, it displays the temperature of the object you are looking at. You can even look through thin walls with a thermal sight - a human will radiate some heat which will heat up the wall, so he will be visible to some degree. Also, some plastic sheets are completely transparent to IR, so even though you can't see something in broad daylight because it's covered with plastic, you can see it in the thermal sights - an example of this is camouflage nets, which usually are transparent for thermal sights. Of course, since everybody know uses thermal sights, the new generation of camouflage netting will also block IR :-)

One major drawback of thermal sights is that they require everything to have different temperatures. An old tree lying on the ground will have the same temperature as the ground, and will therefore be invisible on the thermal sight, but not on an Image Intensifier if there is enough ambient light around (or the device has a built-in illuminator).

That's why thermal sights are only used for targetting systems but not for night vision goggles - it would be rather inconvenient for people to walk into trees all the time.

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- 8/21/2002 10:33:39 PM

Vetkin

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I'm so screwed right now... I'm playing in the nighttime against Katana. Me Brits vs. Him Germans and the normal visibility is '5'. I definitely am limited to 5, but something suspiciously labeled "75mm KwK" is destroying my tanks from twice this range... GRRRR!!!!! PANTHER G UHUs!!!!!!
WHAT ELSE CAN THEY BE?

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- 8/21/2002 10:59:26 PM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jnievele
[B]That's why thermal sights are only used for targetting systems but not for night vision goggles - it would be rather inconvenient for people to walk into trees all the time. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not really. With thermal sights, you will still see every [I]living[/I] tree, as they radiate heat. Ofcourse you might still stumble upon dead things lying about on the ground.

A WAG on my part is that thermal sights are hard to manufacture in a person-carried version, and night vision goggles work for almost all circumstances.

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- 8/23/2002 2:09:47 AM

Warhorse

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They were given the 'infantry tank' class, only as a convenient seperator, as mpost other classes were already taken, to keep them from showing up in other formations, and vice-versa!!

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- 8/23/2002 5:20:54 AM

Major Destruction

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivan
[B]but why is it called an infantry tank in spwaw*questionmark* [/B][/QUOTE]

Infantry tank is the class used to place the Panther Uhu into its own formation.

In spwaw there are limited classes that can be used for tanks. They normally allow a particular type of tank, such as a Churchill to be placed into a particular formation while a different tank such as a Cromwell to be placed into a different formation.

I would guess that by the time we had created all of the German tank formations, all of the main tank classes had been used, so it was an expedient to use the next best class to assign to the Panther Uhu. It does not mean that anybody claims that the Panther Uhu was an infantry tank.

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Re: The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu - 8/23/2002 7:14:42 AM

tohoku

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel

My understanding (which may be flawed :rolleyes: ) is that this 'night vision' system also required a truck mounted ultraviolet spotlight source to illuminate the target area. The tanks were fitted with UV receivers which then allowed them to target and fire on those 'illuminated' targets.

In the game, the Panther G Uhu can also see through large amounts of smoke. They can penetrate 200 to 250m of solid smoke (more if the visibility range is higher

[/QUOTE]

It was infrared, not UV. It could not see through smoke, and certainly not through vehicle-generated smoke (as the Russians did with sprayed oil/fuel over the exhausts). Even modern systems have almost no ability to see through vehicle-generated smoke.

tohoku
YMMV

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- 8/23/2002 7:24:17 AM

tohoku

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jnievele

Passive IR systems (thermal sights) were invented a lot later - in the 1970s, IIRC. Even in the early 1980s, US/Nato-tanks were still using either white or IR illuminators, usually mounted on the gun barrel in the form of a big green box that was opened at night.

[/QUOTE]

Passive IR was first deployed on British tanks in 1952. Centurion MkIII had it fitted in Korea, although active IR was the much more common type there. British had (active) IR systems available to them in numbers in 1947. The US deployed a copy of the German system in 1948 and passive IR (illegally copied from the British) in numbers in 1955.

Thermal Imaging (think of it as 'improved passive IR') came out in the 1960's and was deployed from the very late 60's-early 70's.

tohoku
YMMV

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- 8/23/2002 7:30:42 AM

tohoku

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jnievele

Also, some plastic sheets are completely transparent to IR, so even though you can't see something in broad daylight because it's covered with plastic, you can see it in the thermal sights - an example of this is camouflage nets, which usually are transparent for thermal sights. Of course, since everybody know uses thermal sights, the new generation of camouflage netting will also block IR :-)

[/QUOTE]

You've got it back to front. The old, cloth camo nets could be seen through. The reason everyone swapped to plastic netting in the 1960's was that it was harder to see through with thermal sights - the colouring agents used in the plastics are opaque to low-end thermal/IR sights. The best modern netting has colours that bleeds heat at variable rates, meaning it's very hard to get a clear image of what's under them or even that it's netting - it just looks like a complex mess of heat patches, difficult to tell from background heat clutter.

tohoku
YMMV

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Re: Re: The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu - 8/24/2002 6:49:18 PM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by tohoku
[B]

It was infrared, not UV. It could not see through smoke, and certainly not through vehicle-generated smoke (as the Russians did with sprayed oil/fuel over the exhausts). Even modern systems have almost no ability to see through vehicle-generated smoke.

tohoku
YMMV [/B]

Maybe yours can't, but the Abrams can. so can the FLir's mounted on AH's. I think it is called "Raliegh scaterring"

http://explorepdx.com/ir.html
For those to lasy to click, It's all part of the electromagnetic spectrum. What your eyes can detect is called visible light. What your skin detects is infrared. For your eyes to 'see' something, radiation in the visible range has to bounce off it. The difference in frequency between what bounces and what is asorbed is what provides color(sort of, it will do for now. If you want precision, look it up). IR depends on something different. One of the Laws of thermodynamics is that the universe is trying to get to an even temperature(I forget which one, it's been almost 30 years). So warmer objects transfer heat to colder objects(think of why the old lady puts her ice cold feet in warm spots on your body). That transfer is by electromagnetic radiation in the infared range. Modern equipment is sensitive enough to detect the difference in air temperature over a human hiding behind something. The Advantage of IR is that all living thing put out heat. Some dead things do also. While modern smoke generators include heat producing elements, they burn at a different temperature(put out IR radation on a different frequency) from the targets that they want to obscure. This means that they can be filtered out(Like radio stations, All the stations are filling the air at the same time, but your radio is set to just pick up one at a time). Plus the burning elements in the smoke don't stay in the air as long as the smoke. So the new smoke screens will only work against old gear. In the Gulf war the IR gear was good enough to pick out hot gun barrels at 3 km's. Some smart Iraqi knew his night fighting and was laying doggo without engines running and the hatches closed. He had land lines laid to control his platoon w/o broadcasting and was group firing at the muzzle blasts of the Abrams. He's dead now. His hot tube gave him away.
T.

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Post #: 27

- 8/25/2002 11:48:48 AM

G_X

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Neat Sh!t T.

That Iraqi was pretty smart, but he should have made sure to make every shot count. If you only take one with you, it makes your death worthwhile, if you can get two before you go then you've done your job.

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Post #: 28

- 8/25/2002 12:42:39 PM

Capt. Pixel

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Yeah - that's some pretty cool info. Thanks!

So I guess the Panther G Uhu couldn't have actually seen through all the smoke. Probably some glitch in the vision routine. :rolleyes:

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Post #: 29

- 8/25/2002 9:07:18 PM

Vetkin

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Old IR systems can't see through smoke

But even modern ones can't see through Hot Smoke which advanced tanks like the Leopard, the Abrams, the Merkava and the T-90 carry.

I might be wrong though...

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