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CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 1:30:38 PM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		I just noticed that the planes on some of my carriers are running up very high fatigue (some are 100+). Now my carriers have recently been involved in a fairly long campaign, little fighting but long time on post, and since their return to port the squadrons have been training 100% (carriers docked in taskforce, not disbanded). Land-based units at 100% training meanwhile seem to keep aircraft fatigue in the low 20s or so. My planes aren't falling out of the skies yet, but since I had planned to launch an invasion soon, I do not want to risk them all being stood down for maintenance at an inopportune time. Does anyone have an idea why the aircraft fatigue on my carrier based units is so hight? Should I take the planes off the carriers when in port or something?

Thanks,

Kris
Post #: 1
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:23:52 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Training up complete rookies on CV's might entail a lot more ops losses than usual and depending on your replacement settings might lead to higher fatigue, while leads to higher ops losses which leads to more rookies etc etc.

Actully i find training up on CV's no problem but dont start training when they have high fatigue as training 100% measn that fatigue won't go away. rest the group for a few days to get fatigue down 1st then set to train and you should be fine.



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Post #: 2
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:35:58 PM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not training new pilots on the carriers, just put the planes on training in hopes of increasing stats a bit still (pilots on carriers are mid-60s to low-70s primary skill mostly) or raising secondary skills. And pilot fatigue I can manage fine, it's the airplane fatigue that is getting very high. Ops losses so far have not been a problem, the planes seem to just keep flying normally despite aircraft fatigue around 100.

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Post #: 3
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:38:49 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		As a tag on to the above question: does anyone know how long it takes to reduce the fatigue of the airframes? From what I have seen, their fatigue will never go below about 10 no matter how long they are stood down. OTOH, planes that are stood down do seem to be able to reduce their fatigue down to about 10. I am just not sure how long that takes, since I have not monitored plane fatigue very closely.

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Post #: 4
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:42:23 PM   
TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline 		Will be following this as well, since it's a question I've often wondered about.

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Post #: 5
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:43:16 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Carrier planes can fly with higher fatigues but this also increases chance of op loss.
Normal forced standing down for maintenance is partially suspended for CVs in operation.

Also I suspect operating carrier planes puts more stress on planes than the similar operations on land.

[A plane may be gain damage rather than be stood down on the CV if forced maintenance is required.]

< Message edited by michaelm -- 11/4/2010 3:02:58 PM >

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RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:44:01 PM   
d0mbo

 

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline 		doe splane fatigue induce OP losses or does it (only) lead to planes "in maintenance"(e.g. not flying at all, but not lost either).

Post #: 7
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:46:46 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		fatigue is pilot fatigue, not plane fatigue.

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Post #: 8
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 2:49:46 PM   
jds1978


Posts: 114
Joined: 10/1/2010
Status: offline 		Interesting thread.....never realized I had to worry about air-frame stress along with pilot fatigue

Historically, carrier based crates were much stronger (extra shock absorbers etc) than land based AC. Anyone know if this is modeled in WitPAE?

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Post #: 9
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 3:04:25 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jds1978

Interesting thread.....never realized I had to worry about air-frame stress along with pilot fatigue

Historically, carrier based crates were much stronger (extra shock absorbers etc) than land based AC. Anyone know if this is modeled in WitPAE?


No.

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RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 3:18:06 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

fatigue is pilot fatigue, not plane fatigue.


See the Planes button on an air group screen. 'Plane Fatigue' is an abstraction of how badly the plane needs to be stood down for maintenance.

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Post #: 11
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 3:20:10 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		Gotcha. Mine generally don't last that long.

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"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
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Post #: 12
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 3:38:39 PM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		So how do you get the plane fatigued reduced for carrier planes. I have some CVs disbanded in port, some docked, all planes stood down, but I have not seen a reduction in plane fatigue over a couple of turns, no planes are being placed in maintenance status. Do I have to unload all the carrier planes, or will they eventually repair properly while on board the carrier?

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Post #: 13
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 8:02:50 PM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, there is no way to take planes away from an active air unit and replace them with new aircraft of the same type except through 'reserves', which fills only after the active aircraft are filled.  I understand this choice, though, as any aircraft taken out of an air unit immediately goes into the 'pool', which essentially would allow for some limited 'teleporting'.  Not the most ideal situation.

Another 'wish list' item.  We can already micromanage pilots (should be optional).  Why not be able to micromanage aircraft (should also be optional)?


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Post #: 14
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/4/2010 9:01:45 PM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, but in land based units the planes seem to get repaired during maintenance occasionally. I just tested with one of my carrier DB squadrons, it was stood down for a couple of turns with the carrier docked in port, but plane fatigue was not reduced. I then transferred the squadron to Brisbane, immediatly all of the planes' statuses changed to repairing/maintenance, and the next turn plane fatigue was massively lowered, with over 70 points on some planes (comming from 120). So what I'm wondering is whether this needs to be done manually to keep carrier planes in shape, or whether CV based planes also receive maintenance when rebased to airfields.

I also noticed that some of the planes were damaged, and only got repaired when rebased.

I'm also seeing high fatigue on my ship-based float planes, so I think the same dynamic is at work there.

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Post #: 15
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/5/2010 2:17:13 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		I noticed the same thing. As a test I transfered my British carrier squadrons to the airfield in Ceylon. The airframe fatigue dropped to 0. Frankly im now very curious if I load a non carrier air squadron onto a cargo ship then debark them if it will have the same effect. My land based squadrons dont seem to get the same sort of repair attention. At any rate this is good to know as most of my USN carrier squadrons have been in active service since the war began and the fatigue on those airframes is pretty high. So I will use the same drill, debark all of them at a land base to wipe the airframe fatigue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krikke100

Yeah, but in land based units the planes seem to get repaired during maintenance occasionally. I just tested with one of my carrier DB squadrons, it was stood down for a couple of turns with the carrier docked in port, but plane fatigue was not reduced. I then transferred the squadron to Brisbane, immediatly all of the planes' statuses changed to repairing/maintenance, and the next turn plane fatigue was massively lowered, with over 70 points on some planes (comming from 120). So what I'm wondering is whether this needs to be done manually to keep carrier planes in shape, or whether CV based planes also receive maintenance when rebased to airfields.

I also noticed that some of the planes were damaged, and only got repaired when rebased.

I'm also seeing high fatigue on my ship-based float planes, so I think the same dynamic is at work there.



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RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/5/2010 3:34:24 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Standing down a group on CV will cure some plane fatigue (per turn IIRC).

Repairing planes will cure some plane fatigue when it is moved back to ready status.

You shouldn't need to move groups off CVs to do this.

[Bug: The first statement SHOULD be correct, but that code is not being executed in current build.]


< Message edited by michaelm -- 11/5/2010 3:55:10 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/5/2010 10:24:39 AM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks Michaelm, that`s what I wanted to know. I guess occasional unloading it is then (until the code is executed).

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Post #: 18
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/5/2010 4:29:19 PM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krikke100

Thanks Michaelm, that`s what I wanted to know. I guess occasional unloading it is then (until the code is executed).


This would actually follow doctrine. When CV's approached port, the Air Group would take off and land at an airfield close by. If you follow this standard procedure, this should cure the problem.

Perhaps this was intentional and is WAD?

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Post #: 19
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/5/2010 4:47:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		IIRC, originally and in earlier versions, air unit training was not possible on CVs. It was added in one of the patches to reduce click-fest. But apparently damage/fatigue model for CV ops was not tweaked for it.

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Post #: 20
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/6/2010 9:43:46 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Interesting, I just checked my CV air units abroad CV Saratoga, who have been on 100% training since start of war in San Diego (it's Nov 1942 now, in DaBabes scen). VF with F4F-4s do not have much plane fatigue, all under 10 (0-9, median around 5, I'd say). VS/VB show much higher plane fatigue (SBD-3), 6-106. Biggest average plane fatigue is with VT (TBF-1) 63-95, with most planes over 80.

However, none of the units have lost any planes for Ops/Write offs.


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Post #: 21
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/6/2010 10:57:49 AM   
Krikke100

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Interesting, I just checked my CV air units abroad CV Saratoga, who have been on 100% training since start of war in San Diego (it's Nov 1942 now, in DaBabes scen). VF with F4F-4s do not have much plane fatigue, all under 10 (0-9, median around 5, I'd say). VS/VB show much higher plane fatigue (SBD-3), 6-106. Biggest average plane fatigue is with VT (TBF-1) 63-95, with most planes over 80.

However, none of the units have lost any planes for Ops/Write offs.


I had the same sort of random spread. Two carriers that had operated together most of the war and always had planes on the same setting, one had its fighters in good shape (20s or so I believe), while the other's fighters were high 60s. On one carrier one squadron would have acceptable fatigue while another would be dramatically high. And there was also a lot of variation within some squadrons, spreads from 20 or so to 123, only some of which can be explained by the few replacement planes the squadron took.

Otherwise I didn't notice any problems with ops losses so far. Some of my ship float planes also have very high plane fatigue but they keep flying fine. It's them I worry about the most though, there's no way I'm going to take of all my scout planes every time my capital ships make port.

< Message edited by Krikke100 -- 11/6/2010 10:59:14 AM >

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Post #: 22
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/6/2010 11:43:20 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I don't think it's an issue, unless Ops/WriteOffs start to happen. Switching from 100% Training to combat settings and checking the results couple of turns later may give some insight if it's problem or not. 

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 11/6/2010 11:45:58 AM >

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 23
RE: CV aircraft fatigue - 11/6/2010 1:14:17 PM   
amatteucci

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Unfortunately, there is no way to take planes away from an active air unit and replace them with new aircraft of the same type except through 'reserves'

I, once, replaced all the airframes in VF-3 "downgrading" to Buffalos and then re-upgrading to Wildcats. This, using twice in the same turn the "upgrade now" button.
Don't know whether this workaround is actually worth the effort...

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Post #: 24
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