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LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/6/2010 6:28:22 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		Would it be possible to shed some light on some of the values used for LCU devices.

In particular, I'm going through the IJA army devices in preparation for making changes for my mod, and I keep stumbling across certain values that arent what I expect. For example;

Device 780 - IJA "Type 2 Light Tank"
Accuracy - 9
Penetration - 60
Effect - 4
Anti-Armour - 60
Anti-Soft - 4

Yet, the gun mounted on this tank;

Device 735 - IJA "37mm Type 01 AT Gun"
Accuracy - 9
Penetration - 44
Effect - 1
Anti-Armour - 36
Anti-Soft - 4

Why the difference in Penetration? I can understand the difference in Anti-Armour as I assume this value also takes into account mobility and other factors. Likewise, why is there no difference in Anti-Soft, when the tank mounts an LMG which the gun does not.

As you can see, I'm somewhat foggy as to what all of these values mean when dealing with LCUs, and would appreciate it if anyone could clear things up. Like, which of Anti-Armour or Penetration is used against another tanks Armour?? And so forth.

Last related question; which device types are able to act as coastal defences? Anythings besides the Naval Gun and DP Gun types?

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Post #: 1
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/7/2010 2:19:44 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Pretty sure that basic artillery will fire as CD if it has the range.  However, since most of the artillery has range of only 7 or so, this means only the big stuff (+100) will actually work.

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(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 2
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/7/2010 3:19:30 PM   
Don Bowen


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Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Naval Guns, DP Guns, and Torpedoes can be used against ships during the pre-invasion phase. That is, return fire against bombarding ships and opportunity fire against transports that are unloading within range.

ALL weapons can be used during the actual invasion, firing primarily at troops in landing craft. During this phase, Naval Guns, DP guns, and torpedoes only can still fire at larger warships offshore.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 3
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/7/2010 3:24:12 PM   
JuanG


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Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Naval Guns, DP Guns, and Torpedoes can be used against ships during the pre-invasion phase. That is, return fire against bombarding ships and opportunity fire against transports that are unloading within range.

ALL weapons can be used during the actual invasion, firing primarily at troops in landing craft. During this phase, Naval Guns, DP guns, and torpedoes only can still fire at larger warships offshore.



Thanks for the answer, that clears things up nicely!

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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 4
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/7/2010 4:04:17 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Naval Guns, DP Guns, and Torpedoes can be used against ships during the pre-invasion phase. That is, return fire against bombarding ships and opportunity fire against transports that are unloading within range.

ALL weapons can be used during the actual invasion, firing primarily at troops in landing craft. During this phase, Naval Guns, DP guns, and torpedoes only can still fire at larger warships offshore.



So basically, if a base force is equipped with a Long Lance Launcher, it can utilize it for shore defense. Granted, this was not done to my knowledge, but it is interesting that the game alloys it.

I assume this is where the Kaitan and Shin'yo devices would come into play then?

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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 5
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 11/7/2010 6:43:54 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Naval Guns, DP Guns, and Torpedoes can be used against ships during the pre-invasion phase. That is, return fire against bombarding ships and opportunity fire against transports that are unloading within range.

ALL weapons can be used during the actual invasion, firing primarily at troops in landing craft. During this phase, Naval Guns, DP guns, and torpedoes only can still fire at larger warships offshore.



So basically, if a base force is equipped with a Long Lance Launcher, it can utilize it for shore defense. Granted, this was not done to my knowledge, but it is interesting that the game alloys it.

I assume this is where the Kaitan and Shin'yo devices would come into play then?



There is one example, the Blücher which was sunk by Norwegian torpedoes launched from a fixed position. It's not an weapon you'd want to give to any odd base force, but some fixed positions could be outfitted with this. (I'm not sure if there were actually such position anywhere in the Pacific, but for mods it's a possibility.)

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 6
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 7:14:43 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Naval Guns, DP Guns, and Torpedoes can be used against ships during the pre-invasion phase. That is, return fire against bombarding ships and opportunity fire against transports that are unloading within range.

ALL weapons can be used during the actual invasion, firing primarily at troops in landing craft. During this phase, Naval Guns, DP guns, and torpedoes only can still fire at larger warships offshore.




Sorry to grave dig an old thread.

If I'm reading this right, army guns (ie, say a battery of 15cm guns) do not fire at transport ships or at bombarding ships, but only at the troops during the LCU bombardment phase?

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 8:41:28 PM   
HansBolter


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Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Pretty sure that basic artillery will fire as CD if it has the range.  However, since most of the artillery has range of only 7 or so, this means only the big stuff (+100) will actually work.


I just had a report over the weekend that a 2.95" pack howitzer got a hit on an invader ship at Cagayan.

Even the peas shooters get hits if the enemy comes in close enough.

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Hans


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Post #: 8
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 8:46:09 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Firstly, there is nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread if it remains the best on topic.  I do it all the time and will provide you with an even older thread that provides the complete answer to your query.

Secondly, you have not read it right.  Army guns will fire at the approaching troops.  Their fire is not withheld until the LCU combat resolution stage.

The complete answer was provided by Don Bowen in his post #15 in this 2009 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2306670&mpage=1&key=invasions&#2306717

Some more recent threads discuss the effectiveness of shore suppression/shore counter fire but they are off topic re your query.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 9
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 9:16:14 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Pretty sure that basic artillery will fire as CD if it has the range.  However, since most of the artillery has range of only 7 or so, this means only the big stuff (+100) will actually work.


I just had a report over the weekend that a 2.95" pack howitzer got a hit on an invader ship at Cagayan.

Even the peas shooters get hits if the enemy comes in close enough.


I distinctly remember some similar occurances in my own games, with non-CD weapons (perhaps as part of a unit with CD guns, though?) hitting transports and the like, so obviously army weapons can hit the transports.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Firstly, there is nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread if it remains the best on topic. I do it all the time and will provide you with an even older thread that provides the complete answer to your query.

Secondly, you have not read it right. Army guns will fire at the approaching troops. Their fire is not withheld until the LCU combat resolution stage.

The complete answer was provided by Don Bowen in his post #15 in this 2009 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2306670&mpage=1&key=invasions�

Some more recent threads discuss the effectiveness of shore suppression/shore counter fire but they are off topic re your query.

Alfred


I suppose my question should have been simpler: "If I have a IJA battery (ie, non-CD unit) of Type 89 15 cm guns, will they shoot at unloading amphibious/bombarding ships or just at troops/landing craft?"

Don specifies CD guns only as firing at the transport ships, and army weapons as firing at the landing craft. I'm assuming that my IJA battery would reserve it's fire for the landing craft, even though it may be able to fire against shipping?

As a side note Don's point 5a is very interesting from a Japanese perspective.

Also, I'd welcome any and all links you can send regarding CD/bombardment/counter-fire. The Allies need to make a few amphibious invasions to get to Tokyo, so I'd welcome any info on how to make that process a little longer.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 10
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 9:59:51 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Because it is an abstraction, transport ships are landing craft for your purposes.  Your army devices will shoot at what is afloat with troops.  However the effectiveness and range of contact etc falls within those other parameters I mentioned.  Consequently you will mainly witness dedicated CD guns firing at the enemy invasion fleet.

In short, expect dedicated CD and naval guns to target combat and troop ships.  Surviving unsuppressed army weapons to target troop ships at close range.  Primary reliance to inflict a big "hurt" on the enemy landing must be the dedicated CD/naval guns.  The army weapons are quite secondary.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 11
RE: LCU Devices & Related Questions - 8/4/2014 10:36:52 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Because it is an abstraction, transport ships are landing craft for your purposes.  Your army devices will shoot at what is afloat with troops.  However the effectiveness and range of contact etc falls within those other parameters I mentioned.  Consequently you will mainly witness dedicated CD guns firing at the enemy invasion fleet.

In short, expect dedicated CD and naval guns to target combat and troop ships.  Surviving unsuppressed army weapons to target troop ships at close range.  Primary reliance to inflict a big "hurt" on the enemy landing must be the dedicated CD/naval guns.  The army weapons are quite secondary.

Alfred


Cheers, that clears things up some.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 12
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