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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

 
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 12:03:42 PM   
NefariousKoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser

The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.


I don't expect something to be supported indefinitely and I don't think many here are arguing for that.

The source of contention is the varying opinions on how long and in what state should earlier versions be updated and, notably, how stable and relatively bug-free it should be before moving on to newer versions and charging anew.


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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 1:22:47 PM   
keeferon01


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I dont understand why this was released , Red Pill is just around the corner which kind of makes these two look silly .

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Post #: 62
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 1:36:40 PM   
jomni


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Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...


< Message edited by jomni -- 11/6/2010 1:37:55 PM >


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Post #: 63
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 1:39:51 PM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...

Red Pill and (the excellent) GCB are different projects being developed by two completely separate groups.

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Post #: 64
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 1:50:22 PM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Red Pill is looking good but what about the content? They tried to beat Harpoon before with Global Conflict Blue but there weren't much content (don't know the state of GCB now).
I think RP will take time to mature.  They're not even done with GCB and now they go developing RP...

Red Pill and (the excellent) GCB are different projects being developed by two completely separate groups.


Sorry didn't know that. I always though it's the same.
Anyway looking forward to see what RP has to offer.


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Post #: 65
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 5:56:51 PM   
rich12545

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.


I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?



This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?

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Post #: 66
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 7:29:32 PM   
billyjj

 

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quote:


This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.

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Post #: 67
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 7:55:15 PM   
U2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.


I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?



This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)



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Post #: 68
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 8:50:43 PM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.


I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?



This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)




Then give us new content to buy. If they would make a new game, then charge us then it's fine. We shouldn't have to pay extra patches that fix the game issues. If there is a bug in a game, I'm entitled to a free patch because I paid for the game to work as advertised. Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription.

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Post #: 69
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 8:54:25 PM   
rich12545

 

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From: Palouse, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.


I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?



This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



Reread my post, please. HPS earns money to support that series by using the same engine over and over again (they release new games). With that money they can continue to support the series. For how many years do you expect these guys to continue supporting Harpoon without earning more money???

If they did what you are asking them no one would buy this game, since there would be no point, so they would continue to work for free (and that means no patches for you!)




So you're saying there won't be purchases from new customers buying the repackaged Ultimate? Doesn't this compare to those new games?

And how much money do they need? Most of the work is done by volunteers who get a small cut of future sales. It's not like there's a full time dev (or team) who need to be paid.

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 70
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 9:08:38 PM   
TonyE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Then give us new content to buy. If they would make a new game, then charge us then it's fine. We shouldn't have to pay extra patches that fix the game issues. If there is a bug in a game, I'm entitled to a free patch because I paid for the game to work as advertised. Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription.


On the HC Side:
HCDB updates which tend to be new content because Brad does a good job the first time around...
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=235 (many updates there)

Game additions/improvements:
I post the release notes of each build as we crank it out... Link goes to first build after the last patch (2008.044)
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?s=&showtopic=2395&view=findpost&p=9285
I think you'll find many of the items are game improvements, not just bug fixes.

Even though the whole team on the HC side is volunteers, Matrix's business model demands they make some money on the production, manual formatting, pretty box creations, etc. I don't neccessarily like it but then their doing this keeps AGSI happy enough to let me and my team keep working on the game. It's a lot of layers of crap to deal with for a hobby!




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Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 71
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 1:17:01 AM   
rich12545

 

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Tony, it would be interesting to know what plans you have for HCE in the next year or two. What improvements are you looking at? Because that's really where the $35 is going. Future development not what's happened in the past. Those were patches for our original purchase. The $35 is for the future.

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Post #: 72
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 1:28:55 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Rich, you're in a good position right now. You've got that $35 in your pocket and will get the first set of patches.

I spent the $35; got through a rough install process; and can't run the platform editor, and no pics in ANW.

Actually, it's a miracle the two games run in this package. I'm not complaining per se, but I'm not thrilled either.

EDIT:

Tony got me straightened out on the Platform Editor on a Sat. Night, no less. I just had to download Access Runtime. So I just got my $35 worth of support already, and am now "thrilled."

< Message edited by rosseau -- 11/7/2010 5:58:04 AM >

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Post #: 73
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 1:53:01 AM   
rich12545

 

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Hmmm, actually it's more like $38. MG charges tax in WA. About 9%. Well, the patch will be good for a while, maybe indefinitely. Will there be $38 worth of HCE upgrades in the next couple of years? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Post #: 74
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 3:57:18 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



Agree with you. That was my very first reaction when I heard the news about ultimate. But to put it into perspective, it's the same thing done with WITP AE. They stopped updating WITP once AE was released. Game engine the same but AE has more improvements and squashed bugs which they say is almost a different game. I disagree but I just have to bite the bullet because I just love the game.

With regards to HPS, they release full priced games of the same engine but different scenarios and theaters. This makes the money for them to continue supporting the game engine and releasing new content.


< Message edited by jomni -- 11/7/2010 4:12:47 AM >


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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 4:45:25 AM   
TonyE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Tony, it would be interesting to know what plans you have for HCE in the next year or two. What improvements are you looking at? Because that's really where the $35 is going. Future development not what's happened in the past. Those were patches for our original purchase. The $35 is for the future.


I'm guessing you didn't bother to follow the links, both of which clearly show the development to date, long past the ultimate release (which we on the HC side had 99% finished over a year ago <grr>).

Check out the HarpGamer beta area and you'll see a lot of what is planned. Since it is a volunteer effort I can't say when things will be finished and I further can't say when Matrix will get around to releasing it. But at least you can see what we're working on.



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

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Post #: 76
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 2:54:55 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: billyjj

quote:


This was my point. Harpoon before and after Ultimate is the same engine. The patches will be made for Ultimate which is the same as non-ultimate. So why can't the patches be offered to non-ultimate buyers. They'll be made anyway. If HPS can do it, why can't Matrix?



This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.


Are you saying that Battles from the Bulge is crap ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx









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Post #: 77
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 3:17:16 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: billyjj

This all started with the Battle of the Bulge game, just like a few of us have warned. They see all you people as idiots now that will bend over and pay whatever they say for whatever crap they are selling.


There is no obligation to buy anything, and 'all us people' do make considered purchase decisions. Some have a price they will no go above for anything and others decide on a case by case example. In my own case I probably buy less than half the Matrix releases than I did a few years ago as due to a combination of exchange rates, sales tax and pricing policy I consider most not 'crap', but significantly over-priced. Despite enjoying CoG I refused to buy the EE because I thought the pathetic discount offered to existing owners verged on insulting.

BotB is expensive, but not overpriced. It is also, most certainly, not 'crap'! Ditto WitP and, in all probability, WitE. In the case of BotB the price was initially a shock as it was a significant increase on CotA, but the simple fact is that despite it's awesome owning-ness the series has never sold vast amounts of copies, even compared with other wargame series. If the higher price is needed to keep making games, so be it.

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Post #: 78
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 4:08:03 PM   
Terl


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I understand the economics of making the games and realize that the extra funds are needed for future development. I guess the point I would make back, is that there is a price point ceiling for me and Matrix has hit it. Unlike most larger gaming companies, Matrix prices never go down as the games age (heck, Battles in Normandy and the Italy one are still 50-60 bucks) and unlike other companies their sales are not as deep in the percent off. I understand why and have no issue with it. I vote with my wallet though and sadly I have not purchased a matrix game in quite some time. I was saving some money to get CoTA but then that price went up higher than it started so I just gave up altogether.

I am not saying the games are not worth the money, just not what I would pay; that's all. I waited a long time for BfTB but saw the price and watched CoTA's go up and figured I'd just stick with what I have. I have bought over 20 Matrix titles, just none new due to pricing.

I have learned also that rants about prices do little good. But, since those responded as to why they would buy, I thought it fair that those who do not buy get a chance to say way. Frankly for me it is just the money. I can buy two games (older ones) through another vendor that will make me smile and make me happy and while away the time just fine.



< Message edited by Terl -- 11/7/2010 4:09:48 PM >

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Post #: 79
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 5:23:52 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terl
Unlike most larger gaming companies, Matrix prices never go down as the games age (heck, Battles in Normandy and the Italy one are still 50-60 bucks) and unlike other companies their sales are not as deep in the percent off. I understand why and have no issue with it.


+1, but in addition I think Matrix is making a mistake by not deeply discounting older titles.

Just my 2 euro-cents

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


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Post #: 80
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 5:44:05 PM   
junk2drive


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I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.

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Post #: 81
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 5:48:23 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I see a few people here taking one or two games and jumping to conclusions about pricing policies, attitudes towards customers and future trends. With all due respect, while we welcome constructive criticism, some of these comments are ridiculous. We hold our customers in the highest regard and we do everything we can to continue to provide you with quality wargames at the most reasonable price that makes continuing this business possible for us and our developers. Whether you choose to buy a game at a particular price is entirely up to you, but I would appreciate if there were a bit more benefit of the doubt regarding our real costs and how we look on our customers.

The assumption that we are out to screw our customers, when I know what the real decision-making process is, gets on my nerves. We went out of our way with this release to offer two games combined (plus the bonus archival versions) for less than their previous combined price, with a substantial discount for existing customers that effectively gives more than one game away for free based on their previous prices and still provide free updates to the new release level. We hear the same thing from some posters whether a game is released that costs $80, $50 or $35. Apparently, there is a world where publishers and developers can develop, maintain and sell wargames for $5-$10 to a niche market and still make a living. Those of you who know where it is, please point me there, it sounds lovely.

In this reality, we are doing everything we can do to keep prices down and offer value. Customers regularly confuse what's possible in terms of pricing and development on mainstream computer games with huge markets and economies of scale that we don't have. Niche markets work differently. When you have a game that has a limited market and is developed with limited funding and a small team (in many cases, just one programmer), it makes a big difference in terms of what you can actually do in a year or two development-wise and how much the game has to cost in order to make it possible for even a single programmer to make a living working on the game full-time.

I think this reality is lost on many customers, who base their assumptions on what they see and hear of the mainstream games market, which may as well exist on another planet as far as out business realities are concerned. Frankly, for the budgets we have, I know that we do a heck of a lot more than most mainstream game publishers and developers could do with the same money. It is ultimately your decision whether we did a good enough job or not to deserve your money and that is the fair way that the market works. However, I would appreciate if some of you would make that decision without the unnecessary and incorrect assumptions about our motives, ethics or attitudes.

With all that said, I encourage previous customers again to try the free updates once they are available and I also hope that those of you with other theories on what goes on behind the scenes here will please leave them behind. The only thing we do, which is the only rational thing a business can do, is try to provide the most value we can for the price to encourage you to choose our products.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/7/2010 6:31:10 PM >


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Post #: 82
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 5:49:30 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.


If your business model is forfeiting a lot of additional income from gamers willing to give a game they're not really interested in a try for $20 to avoid that some cheapskates wait 5 years for a game they really want to play to come down to that price point, you're doing something wrong.

Everyone discounts older products. There's a reason for this.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 83
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 5:57:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Everyone discounts older products. There's a reason for this.


We have discounted older products and we also regularly discount pretty much all products (our holiday sale lasts for almost two months of every year, for example) to make sure we also make lower price points possible. We do not discount older products as quickly as mainstream game companies with a massive retail-based secondary market, for obvious reasons.

The discounting you see on mainstream titles is largely because they have a very narrow window of peak "voice" in the market and that's why they see most of their full-price sales very quickly and they then rapidly discount to get incremental profit through as many channels as possible. We do not see most of our full-price sales quickly and our games do not age the same way most mainstream games do. It takes much longer before there is time and money to develop the next greatest wargame that replaces a previous one on the same subject, often years, whereas it can be weeks or months for mainstream games. In the meantime, the original game remains the best on the subject and is often still recouping the developer's costs. Wargame development is often less technologically intensive, but more costly in terms of time and resources in many other areas due to the level of complexity and historical accuracy involved in many of these titles.

Our market is much more similar to that for board wargames or miniature wargames than for other computer games, for the most part.

Regards,

- Erik


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CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 84
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 7:06:14 PM   
sabre1


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V22 Osprey,

"Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription."

Don't give them any ideas.

There was a company "Novastar" that use to do scenarios with stories and historical commentary each month for "Tanks", I use to subscribe to it, and looked forward each month to the scenarios. That was before the Internet took off and you had services like "The Source", Compuserve, GENIE, etc...

Every month was a newsletter, and I even got a 3 ring bider with strategy and tactics in it. Wow, those were the good old days.


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Post #: 85
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 7:20:16 PM   
junk2drive


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There wasn't as much competition for your dollars back then either.

I think Novastar was involved in some other games too with scenario discs and stuff.

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Post #: 86
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 7:39:20 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.


True. I must admit I do that with pretty much all mainstream releases now because they will be usually available for a big discount on Steam after a relatively short time. It's also a wise policy with products generating DLC as well, as wait a while and the whole lot gets bundled up in one edition.


(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 87
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 10:51:42 PM   
rich12545

 

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From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
I think the Ultimate package is priced right. And I think the discount for those who bought one game is right. But the discount for those who bought two isn't. How can you give the discount to those who bought two games the same as those who bought one? It makes no sense at all.

Wow, Novastar. Brings back some memories. I think that's where Wild Bill started making scenarios iirc.

< Message edited by rich12545 -- 11/7/2010 10:52:53 PM >

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 88
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/7/2010 11:20:23 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline
I still have some Novastar newsletters. The subscription for a couple of issues would have bought me last week the entire ToW collection on Steam. Pricing has gone crazy, and it has become a much more sensitive issue, particularly in this forum.

I think almost everyone can agree that Matrix is not looking to screw over its customers, and Erik was justified in feeling hurt along those lines. But I have to admit, I have taken umbrage at some of the pricing, at least until the shock wears off. It's a fine line for Matrix, and I'm sure they are aware of the risks either way.


(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 89
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/8/2010 1:24:09 AM   
Terl


Posts: 609
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I still have some Novastar newsletters. The subscription for a couple of issues would have bought me last week the entire ToW collection on Steam. Pricing has gone crazy, and it has become a much more sensitive issue, particularly in this forum.

I think almost everyone can agree that Matrix is not looking to screw over its customers, and Erik was justified in feeling hurt along those lines. But I have to admit, I have taken umbrage at some of the pricing, at least until the shock wears off. It's a fine line for Matrix, and I'm sure they are aware of the risks either way.




I agree. I never thought I was being screwed over or taken advantage of. I just wanted to say I was not interested in buying this or others at the higher prices. It is not that they are not worth the money, but more that money is tight and one needs to take care these days and be sure on the purchases.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 90
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