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Flashpoint Germany Screenshot - 8/20/2002 11:14:13 PM

David Heath

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Hi Guys

The have a screenshot of Flashpoint Germany up on the main page of Matrix Games.

David

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- 8/21/2002 5:44:27 AM

David Heath

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20+ views and no comments.

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- 8/21/2002 10:34:02 PM

Mac_MatrixForum

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Looks good to me. Nice and original. The fields look slightly repetitious (city is great) and on my monitor the green of the units and the white markings might do well with a little bit more contrast.

Is that a static bitmap as background?

Oh, and I hope the background is not just a nice backdrop :) (read: there will be different kinds of terrain as represented in the map).

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

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- 8/21/2002 10:43:33 PM

IChristie

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The map for any given scenario will be a static background, but there will be multiple maps to choose from.

There will be different kinds of terrain as represented on the map. Terrain will be modelled on a 500m grid (for scale - a 500m square is a little larger than one of the unit counters).

Elevation will also vary as well. Both elevation and terrain type will affect LOS.

We'll work on more variation in the field texture.

Thanks for the feedback

ic

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/22/2002 2:41:31 AM

Mac_MatrixForum

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Sounds good to me then. I'm interested in having a game of this scale.

It was mentioned in another thread that us players should not be overburdened with micro-management. What does this mean in terms of the number of units in a given game? The brigade size or less sounds very interesting as I served in brigade and army corps level signal corps (network command and surveillance) and EW duties. I hope this game would be the first one to model those aspects as well. At least to some extent as they are pretty much neglected as it is :).

Is it possible to make more scenarios (some kind of editing ability) or small random engagements?

Sorry if the questions are slightly off-topic in this thread but you got me started ;-)

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

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- 8/22/2002 8:23:52 AM

Hub

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I like everything in the screenshot except the city representation- it looks a bit like tiles on a bathroom wall. I'm a little ashamed to say it because in a game like this, looks should tend to be a secondary consideration, but that's the first thing I thought of when I saw it. I noticed the units were company-sized: I like this scale.

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- 8/22/2002 8:23:53 AM

byron13

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An EW guy? They're going to love you. I got me some questions that I've always wondered about. Presumably you are either familiar with Soviet EW capability or could at least infer some capability from our own doctrine.

1. How quickly could the Soviets zero an HQ in for special treatment?
2. What level headquarters would they target? Division? Brigade? Would they smother a battalion if it was in a key position? Would they always target combat headquarters or would they also jam service support?
3. How quickly could they react if the target switched to an alternate frequency?
4. How effective do you think the Soviets were at targeting, say, a HQ located by EW? Were they coordinated enough to get off a good artillery strike based on that information? Air strikes?
5. I was always taught to keep transmissions short. So we'd break up a long message into several shorter transmissions. Does that do any good?
6. Never having had it happen to me, how effective is jamming? Will is completely shutdown a particular frequency or is it merely annoying?
7. Did the Soviets have, in the late eighties, enough EW to make it a regular threat, or would it have been fairly rare? How often could various level HQs expect to be jammed?
8. Were we set up to target jammers for artillery strikes. That is, if the Soviets set up a jammer on a hilltop, would we locate and target that unit for destruction?
9. And so on and so forth. I'd love to know more, and I'm sure the designers would as well. They'd indicated on this post that they wanted to do EW right.

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- 8/22/2002 2:26:47 PM

Mac_MatrixForum

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I'd be happy to answer but, since it's all highly classified, I would have to kill you after ;).

To be honest, I'd be happy to dicuss the general aspects that don't go too specific (fortunately [I]they[/I] didn't tell me any particularly secret details but still) but merely answering your inquiries will make a lenghty post and will take a while to write.

Besides, it's quite off-topic so I'll start a new thread or something.
Perhaps there are some other EW guys out there. I'd also like to hear other peoples' [I]educated guesses[/I] :).

Oh, and should the developers be interested I'll help in any way I can. Being a programmer myself I have sometimes pondered about the idea of making a wargame that models those aspects but, alas, doing it really well would need enormous research, depending on the general abstraction level of course. And as such real-life applicable data would be hard to come by I have opted to improve my skills as a programmer instead :D.

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

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- 8/22/2002 7:43:50 PM

IChristie

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[QUOTE]Oh, and should the developers be interested I'll help in any way I can. [/QUOTE]

Uh Oh! Now ya gone and done it! :D

Hey David! Get over here.... we found another one ;)

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/22/2002 9:54:40 PM

Mac_MatrixForum

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Haha :D

In life, I'm first and foremost a programmer and only during a time of crisis an EW man having done the compulsory military service. I did keep my eyes and ears open (and I still do) because, lets face it, I'm also a military nut ;).

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

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Real Life? What's that? - 8/22/2002 10:07:52 PM

IChristie

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In life I am a physicist who got seduced by the dark side and now they let (or make) me manage engineering projects.

You tell me how I got a job making maps for Matrix in my "spare" time...:confused:

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/23/2002 9:10:34 AM

byron13

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hub
[B]I like everything in the screenshot except the city representation- it looks a bit like tiles on a bathroom wall. [/B][/QUOTE]

I was trying to think of how to describe my disappointment with the town, but this hits the nail squarely on the head. Iain, please don't take any of this personally, because you are doing incredible work. I also understand that this is probably very early in the process, and you work magic.

But the town does lack texture. Moreover, it seems very symmetrical - very north/south and east/west. There's not a town in Europe that has a straight road longer than 10 meters, and are generally confused, twisting, random affairs based on road lines that are centuries old. I may have some small scale maps, e.g., 1:25,500 or 1:10,000 kicking around that you could use as models.

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- 8/23/2002 11:43:06 AM

IChristie

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Thanks, for the feedback. I'll keep working on the textures.

You'd be surprised though, cities actually look a fair bit like that in satellite photos on this scale - which is basically what I was using as a model.

Still, I agree that there is room for improvement.

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/24/2002 1:56:55 AM

Mac_MatrixForum

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Actually I thought the city looked better (even pretty nice) than the fields which in my eyes looked a bit regular :). The cities could use some unaligned roads and perhaps some blocks could be rotated so they are not so perfectly aligned (at least none of our cities have that neat blocks).

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
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Psssst... wanna see a texture? - 8/24/2002 2:56:53 AM

IChristie

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I took another look at the screenshots and decided I could do better with the city screenshots.

Since you fellas seem to be a select group I'll break the usual rules and show you a bit of work in progress. (nobody tell David, OK?)

There are actually several different textures in the city to try and simulate various kinds of neighbourhoods. It still looks a little monochromatica as well, but I can work on that...

I can't guarantee this will ever make it into the game, but let me know if you think it's an improvement.

I agree with Mac on the field textures and I working on them as well.

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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**** it won't let me attach - 8/24/2002 2:59:07 AM

IChristie

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Whoops, that's not gonna work after all. I can't seem to attach a file.

Hmmmmm....

I'll have to find a way to put it somewhere that you guys can see it. I'll put it up later tonight.

Sorry about that

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Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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OK, let's see if it works now - 8/24/2002 9:57:46 AM

IChristie

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Sorry for the delay

Attachment (1)

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Iain Christie
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It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/24/2002 2:06:34 PM

Mac_MatrixForum

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Perfecto :D

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
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- 8/25/2002 8:08:13 AM

Hub

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Oh yeah- that's much better- photorealistic. "Mr. Christie, you make good cookies."

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- 8/25/2002 10:15:12 AM

IChristie

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[QUOTE]Mr. Christie, you make good cookies."[/QUOTE]

Hub,

Full marks for content :D but none for originality ;)

Thanks

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Iain Christie
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"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

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- 8/27/2002 3:12:03 AM

IronManBeta

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
[B]I served in brigade and army corps level signal corps (network command and surveillance) and EW duties. I hope this game would be the first one to model those aspects as well. At least to some extent as they are pretty much neglected as it is :).
[/B][/QUOTE]

Just caught up with the forum again and saw this. We would definitely love to pick your brains, and in a way that would not require you to kill us!

As usual, I have read a lot of conflicting info as to the ins and outs of electronic warfare. It has to be of extreme importance and I don't doubt a huge amount of attention was focussed on it behind the scenes. Translating that gracefully into game terms is the tough part.

For beginning players the game will essentially let them turn off the EW rules. For better players increasing the 'intensity of EW' will result in an increasing number of HQ stonks (the more orders you send out and reports received, the more radio traffic you generate. The more you generate, the easier you are to find. When they find you, they promptly blast you with off-map arty). The idea is to create a dilemma: be a control freak and run the very real risk of having all your positions given away early in the game, or stay stealthy but only barely in control of your forces. Tough call... Losing your HQ is not the end of the game since a subordinate unit will inherit the job fairly quickly, but it does cause a command disruption and can leave you powerless for a key interval.

On the other hand, no one has made the mistake of leaving their radio transmitters anywhere near their HQ since at least 1942, (well 5th Panzer Armee in June 44 in Normandy but they are just the exception to the rule, and they got completely trashed from the air because of it) and there are always spare radio sets to activate if the first set get clobbered - so how real is HQ suppression anyway? (I have this inquiring mind, you see...)

I worry that active measures like jamming might make much more of a practical effect than HQ stonks. It could significantly reduce the ability to issue orders and collect reports and bring the whole plan of combat into a shambles. Or is that anticipated in the real world, and everyone is trained to just carry on and do their job regardless? I believe this is why the WP forces prefer the rote implementations and try to minimize changes on the fly. A defending 'maneuver warfare' force suddenly without any communications in contrast would be an utter shambles. Were we setting ourselves up for defeat?

I had also worried that effective EW could all but shut down a modern army's logistical capabilities, but Byron kindly set me straight on that. There is a lot more face-to-face and SOP where the rubber meets the road then I knew about. On balance there is enough redundancy in the system to keep the battle going for the scale and timeframes this game is about.

Those who have played the original SimCan MBT games will remember the near chaos that EW could creat. Messages garbled, HQs disappearing, the player being told that he personally is dead - sometimes on the first or second turn! You were constantly wondering if you were in too close contact with your units or not close enough. Great fun but hard to understand at the beginning what with everything else that was going on. This time around we want to make it more detailed but also more understandable and somewhat more flexibile in application.

In a followup edition I would like to really expand it and make the game something of a testbed for EW ideas, but that is gleam in the eye stuff right now....

I just remembered I have a book on the subject that I had forgotten about on a bookshelve back home. But this is the internet age. Know any good websites? I was just reading the one that discusses nothing but modern combat ops in urban terrain (a whole other can of worms for a hard working designer) at http://www.urbanoperations.com/ Maybe there is a good one for EW too.

Lots of fun! Sorry to be gone the last few weeks but I'm back in the saddle again.

Cheers all, Rob.

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- 8/30/2002 3:11:24 AM

Sabre21

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Hi Robert

The Soviet EW capability was an enormous threat. As a pilot operating over there during the mid to late eighties, we were basically trained to keep transmissions short..usually under 7 seconds. Even though our radio transmissions were encrypted, there are still ways to determine where the leadership is and other various type units based on the number of radio calls being made to and from different locations.

The down side was that as an aviator, we tend to be a bit verbose on the radio and it was a hard habit to break. In tactical environments we always talked on the secure nets...although we had the ability to talk on UHF and VHF-AM. Many occasions our FM nets would be jammed and pilots would resort to the UHF or VHF out of frustration. This was never a good thing since these radios at the time were not secure.

The 7 second rule was to reduce the Soviet capability of triangulating our positions. Even in aviation we used this since many times we were in op's hovering overlooking an area, or maybe in the FARP getting re-fueled, or in an AA awaiting orders. The last thing you want is to have some uninvited 152 rounds dropping on your location. And the one thing the Soviets had plenty of was Arty.

Sabre21

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- 8/30/2002 3:58:03 AM

IronManBeta

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sabre21
[B]Hi Robert

The Soviet EW capability was an enormous threat. As a pilot operating over there during the mid to late eighties[/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds interesting - what was it you were flying? If arty was a concern then were you flying a helicopter?

Chees, Rob.

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- 8/30/2002 4:47:50 AM

Sabre21

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Hi Robert

Yepper...I flew Cobras and on occasion an OH-58. I preferred the AH-1 cuz I got to blow stuff up:)

Sabre21

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- 8/30/2002 5:50:28 AM

byron13

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sabre21
[B]I preferred the AH-1 cuz I got to blow stuff up:)

Sabre21 [/B][/QUOTE]

Natcherly. Why else would you join?

So you guys were actually jammed, eh? Interesting. They never bothered with the ground guys. I also heard you all had a problem with them lighting off false radio beacons for VOR and whatnot trying to draw you all over the border. But of course the 11 ACR had the same problem when the East Germans had scantily clad lasses prancing around on the other side.

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- 8/30/2002 4:38:12 PM

Sabre21

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The term is "Meaconing". The Russkies were constantly coming up with ideas that tried to lure pilots across the border. Oh..and they were using ADF transmitters...since all our aircraft had those and not everyone had vor's. We would also pick up their ada radar quite often when near the border...every know and then they would do a radar track to mess with us too. On several occasions they would use lasers...that actually caused a few problems.

It was a constant game of nerves along the border. Overflights by both sides...harrassing one another. I was there when a Hind burned in from trying to play tag with a pair of cobras. The foot patrols were even worse..they would follow the patrols around taking pictures with these huge telephoto lens equipped cameras. Plus considering the actual border was nothing more than blue and white poles every so many meters..I stood within arms reach of a Russian patrol once.

Yep..the good ol days:)

Sabre21

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- 8/30/2002 5:39:39 PM

Marc von Martial

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sabre21
[B]The foot patrols were even worse..they would follow the patrols around taking pictures with these huge telephoto lens equipped cameras. Plus considering the actual border was nothing more than blue and white poles every so many meters..I stood within arms reach of a Russian patrol once. [/B][/QUOTE]

Crazy times that were. I rember when my Dad took me to the border in the Harz region. At the Hill called "Brocken" (where that huge russian radio/radar station was). My father took me really near to the border by let us crawl through the brush and dense forest. But they must have seen us, as the guys in the towers watched in our direction with binoculars, after a few minutes a patrol came around making photos of the area where we tried to hide. Only after a few years later I realized how crazy this overall situation was. Now with the "Cold War" beeing gone for some 10 years you only realize what it was about that time. It�s so "quite" nowadays in Germany, Military was omnipresent in the mid/late 80s , were it jet overflights every 2 hours over your village/town. GI�s or Brits suddenly poping out of the woods, "playing" war (we germans tried to use our training areas for that stuff ;) ), or witnissing these massive manuevers, where whole tank regiments "besieged" your village for days ;). It was fun when we where kids in these days. Today, remebering this you only realize how close on the edge the situation was.

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- 8/31/2002 4:24:43 AM

Sabre21

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They were very dangerous times. I believe the most volitale since the Cuban missile crises. Reagan was trying to bankrupt the soviets thru the arms race...and I believe it was a close one. If it wasn't for Gorbachev...it could have easily precipitated WWIII. I believe we were ready in the event it happened...but to think of the devastation and millions of casualties...I am thankful on how it turned out. It was a risky game Reagan played...but at least the world is a safer place now...unfortunately our enemies are not so well defined.

Sabre21

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Post #: 28