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Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/3/2010 11:20:44 PM

Anthropoid

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Here lately I've been playing Nitro Games two age of sail games "East India Company Complete" and "Conquest of the Americas." Fun games, and the tactical battles engine has been fun. Sort've like the tactical battles in the old Sid Meier's game "Pirates!" but better. Nitro publishes through Paradox, so I hope I don't get excommunicated or something . . .

What this game has made me want (and I've suggested it to the Nitro guys) is a game sort've like their engine (good tactical naval battle engine allowing player to control squadrons of up to five and up to three squadrons in a fleet in one battle) with fairly abstracted strategic level for economic/political/building stuff, but one that covers 1800 to 1935 or something like that. Basically through the pinnacle of the big Ships-of-the-line to the ironclads to the steamers and then into the more modern designs and dreadnoughts.

I'd be interested in any good tactical naval game though.

Any suggestions.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 1:05:55 AM

sabre1

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Warship Combat: Navies at War, made by NWS would be my first pick.

Storm Eagle studios Jutland/Distant Guns would be my second, due primarily to poor support and extreme DRM.

Only other currently produced tactical combat games would be the ones offered from HPS.

Salvo, (Age of Sail) which I hear is not that good is still sold by Shrapnel Games.

Fighting Steel is also still sold by NWS, it just depends on how much eye candy you want.

For me Action Stations by Raw, was one of the best WWII tactical naval games ever, followed by Battles for the Noth Atlantic by SSI.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 1:08:53 AM

Anthropoid

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Thanks Sabre!

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 1:32:09 AM

sabre1

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Let's not forget Carriers at War here on Matrix, but for me that would not be my choice, just not enough to it.

If Matrix or SSG had done the construction version and added tons of scenarios it would have been an interesting game, IMHO.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 1:35:14 AM

Erik Rutins

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Our John Tiller's Battleground Napoleonic Wars includes the classic Age of Sail. Also, the recent Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition has a good tactical naval combat engine for that era.

I would also recommend Harpoon for modern naval warfare.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 1:40:45 AM

Anthropoid

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I love the COGEE engine as it is integrated into that game as a whole. Harpoon I couldn't get into; I need to see some ship graphics

Is the Tiller game a tactical naval battle engine? Or part of a larger game?

Erik if you guys haven't tried those Nitro games you really should, esp. the East India game. It has been out a couple years and is fully polished now and you can buy it in a "Complete" edition with all the DLCs. Amazingly well done I thought. Would love to see you guys do something along those lines but with your flair for the military detail, more realistic logistics, morale, etc.

So I guess now I'm just waiting for my email with my "Registration Code." Already got the one confirming the purchase details, but I guess NWS sometimes takes a day or so to send you the Registration Code?

That is one thing I totally love about Matrix: You can go from shopping to playing a game with virtually zero hassle within 30 minutes to an hour :)

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 4:30:08 AM

Erik Rutins

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Age of Sail:

http://reviews.cnet.com/pc-games/age-of-sail-pc/1707-9696_7-30977273.html

Regarding pictures of ships, you know they do exist in Harpoon right? There's actually a whole new library of military art in the new release. Harpoon is not an "eye candy" game at all, but there are some nice historical photos and ship art included in the database for each ship class and type. The game interface itself is spartan and (for H3) meant to simulate the real thing from a CIC, so it's realistic and functional but not pretty.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 8:38:50 AM

diablo1

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Now who could forget QQP's "The Grandest Fleet"? It is tactical it has pretty graphics and it has a pretty decent ai. If you can find it you can play it with D-Fend Reloaded (a DosBox workalike but works much better than DosBox).

There are some copies for sale at Amazon.com Also read the review by one gamer there. It's a classic next to Empire and Empire Deluxe.

quote:

Game Description
The Grandest Fleet is another in the continuing series of war games published by Quantum Quality Productions. The objectives of the game are a bit unusual in that they focus mainly on capturing, maintaining and building cities. The equipment database in the game is extensive with everything from submarines to carriers and aircraft to airports. City economic status is an important aspect in developing and maintaining a strong support system that ensures replenishment when needed. Coordinated control is paramount to directing, commanding and monitoring all aspects of your strategic and tactical plans and resultant battles. The game contains an enormous database accurately based on WWII hardware and weaponry and a bonus for serious naval war gamers in the guise of a random scenario generator. The interface is simple and easy to learn and complements a well-developed menu system for ease of game play. Nearly two dozen levels of computer opponent strengths are available and the game also supports two-player games by modem. Both VGA and SVGA graphics are supported and The Grandest Fleet contains war-like sound effects and apropos music.

< Message edited by diablo1 -- 11/4/2010 8:42:44 AM >

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 2:31:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The game interface itself is spartan and (for H3) meant to simulate the real thing from a CIC, so it's realistic and functional but not pretty.

Both generically and specifically... "realistic" IS "pretty" in my book! *grin*

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 3:48:44 PM

diablo1

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Yeah and The Grandest Fleet IS "pretty".

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 6:27:29 PM

Anthropoid

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Cool thanks for the link to Age of Sail Erik. I kinda feel like some of these genres the games haven't necessarily got better over the years? Seems like some of these old ones were the zeniths?

I should make an effort to go back to Harpoon, it clearly is a fantastic game. But at the time I bought and tried it, I needed more pretty pictures than I remember it offering. I think I was playing on a small sceen laptop and those little unit icons in the data screen weren't satisfactory.

A real-time tactical map with simple animated ship graphics (ideally more like Nitro than WiTP) would've made that game instantly more approachable for me.

Civ4 spoiled me. Even Civ3 spoiled me relative to some of the high-level map-focused GUIs that are so common in operational and grand strategy war games.

In terms of development burden, is it really that much more costly/time-consuming to make a game with at least some degree of eye-candy? Not to mention, I would think it pays dividends in terms of market penetration?

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 11:33:47 PM

gabeeg

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Turn based, 1890's-1950's entirely tactical "Warship Combat: Navies at War" from NWS is the best IMO.
Age of Sail II: Privateers Bounty was the last tactical "age of sail" game I played that worked on XP....pretty good looking and played well enough.
HPS Midway is a pretty good WWII tactical real time game...I have not played HPS's other naval games like Jutland...they seem liked but not loved.

It's kinda slim pickings out there...

oh! there is the the "Ironclads" series that cover ACW, and some other hypothetical and historical wars/battles from the 1860's-1880's. They are cheap on Gamersgate and got pretty good reviews. I played the demo of the first one and it was fun but did not grab me for some reason.

Erik,

Matrix should find a good Tactical Naval game (any time period) to market or develop. Add this to my wish list for matrix along with a Modern Steel Panthers I/II "like" top down Squad level tactical game (SPWAW does not count)...no 3D and both turn based please :)

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/4/2010 11:51:03 PM

Aurelian

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RAW's Action Stations is one I'd like to see done again.

I liked the Amiga version better than the PC one.

Though I did learn not to have land in my generated battles. The CPU would just run right into it.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 1:37:24 PM

Anthropoid

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So I'm messing around with the WCNAW game . . . wow, I am spoiled
I can definitely see how this system has its strengths, but SOO abstracted. I guess I played Oblvion too much this summer

One thing I still have not figured out how to do: change speeds!?

I set up a self-designed scenario GB vs. Germany (computer) 1914. I think I had two BBs and two DDs and gave him a BB, two ABs, some CLs, and some DDs . . .

RMB-(player & computer suprised)-repeat 20 or 30 times! Lost Contact = battle over !?

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 3:13:41 PM

Anthropoid

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Playing the auto-gen battles seems to be the thing. Are the scenarios to DL somewhere?

Seems like you do a LOT of shooting and not too much hitting in this game. Guess that's realistic.

Trying a different strategy: weave my way in closer, getting them to expend their ammo, THEN shoot at them! (is that good?

ADDIT: found the scenarios on the WCNAWS forums.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 11/5/2010 3:27:52 PM >

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 4:27:52 PM

Anthropoid

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Well I'm just a tad bit frustrated. Sent in my reg for the NWS forums so I can ask questions there and just waiting to get authorized.

In the mean time, I can only play autogen engagements for some reason.

I DLed a few scenarios (including the torpedo tutorial one) but when I try to load them, both me and the enemy seem to have zero ships and then it just says "ALL SHIPS SUNK" end. Maybe I'm not selecting the correct options as I load it up from the start? I'm sure I'll get it working eventually . . . really looking forward to playing Tsushima!

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 5:00:25 PM

Anthropoid

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Installed the 1.1 update for the WCNAW game and the scenarios (and speed controls) all seem to be working now

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 7:45:56 PM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

So I'm messing around with the WCNAW game . . . wow, I am spoiled
I can definitely see how this system has its strengths, but SOO abstracted. I guess I played Oblvion too much this summer

One thing I still have not figured out how to do: change speeds!?

I set up a self-designed scenario GB vs. Germany (computer) 1914. I think I had two BBs and two DDs and gave him a BB, two ABs, some CLs, and some DDs . . .

RMB-(player & computer suprised)-repeat 20 or 30 times! Lost Contact = battle over !?

WCNAW is turn-based but it has phases within each turn that you give specific orders. First you'll turn on/off any evasive maneuvering, then give speed & heading orders, all ships move after those orders are given, and then you start giving targeting orders in individual phases by type such as Main batteries, secondary batteries, tertiary batteries, and torpedoes.

It is very much a game with tabletop naval miniature wargaming rules starting with the popular 3-minute per turn scale and so on. I suggest reading up on the manual, at least the parts about what all the symbols and acronyms stand for.

I'm hoping to see the other game tied into it for mutually integrated campaigns as has been planned. That would kick ass. I'd definitely purchase the other one, then, too.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 8:44:04 PM

Anthropoid

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Yeah, if this tac engine were tied into campaigns it WOULD kick some arse!

Here is a question I am not seeing any answer to in the manual Koel: does the positioning of the ships in the division mean anything relative to the position of the divisions on the tac map? For example: when there are 8 ships in a division, are they actually in a line, or are they two abreast as shown in the ship detail window on the lower left? If I have a ship that has a friendly between him and an enemy fire, does it have any repurcussions?

Sometimes not all the ships in a division are in range, which tells me the app is actually keeping very exact account of positioning and orientation and that it probably figures into tactical success?

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/5/2010 11:54:32 PM

SireChaos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah, if this tac engine were tied into campaigns it WOULD kick some arse!

True. There were some plans to integrate it into Supremacy at Sea as its tactical engine, but I think they have been postponed indefinitely.

quote:

Here is a question I am not seeing any answer to in the manual Koel: does the positioning of the ships in the division mean anything relative to the position of the divisions on the tac map? For example: when there are 8 ships in a division, are they actually in a line, or are they two abreast as shown in the ship detail window on the lower left? If I have a ship that has a friendly between him and an enemy fire, does it have any repurcussions?

I don�t think so. It is not possible for shells or torpedoes to hit anything other than its target, or miss completely.

quote:

Sometimes not all the ships in a division are in range, which tells me the app is actually keeping very exact account of positioning and orientation and that it probably figures into tactical success?

Actually, I think that just means that the ships have different maximum ranges, and that you�re just in between the longest and shortest maximum range. Have you ever had two ships of the some class in a division when one was in range and the other was not? Or have you ever had part of an any division, but not all of it, in range of one of your ships?

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 7:39:27 AM

goodwoodrw

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Now some people on this site got taste! Actions played that on my old Amiga, and it was my PC game. Loved the search lights and the torpedo spreads. Who needs graphics, 8 colours and all the symbols u needed. Bring it back!

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 9:16:40 AM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah, if this tac engine were tied into campaigns it WOULD kick some arse!

Here is a question I am not seeing any answer to in the manual Koel: does the positioning of the ships in the division mean anything relative to the position of the divisions on the tac map? For example: when there are 8 ships in a division, are they actually in a line, or are they two abreast as shown in the ship detail window on the lower left? If I have a ship that has a friendly between him and an enemy fire, does it have any repurcussions?

Sometimes not all the ships in a division are in range, which tells me the app is actually keeping very exact account of positioning and orientation and that it probably figures into tactical success?

AFAIK, every ship in each division has the same range to target. I've selected different ships in a division and checked the range to a single target for them and they have been the same. If there's one weak point in the system itself, it's the movement abstraction and secondly the range abstractions. It's definitely not for everyone but I like it well enough and it's reminiscent of tabletop wargames as mentioned.

Too bad about integrated campaigns. I suspected it had been postponed after not hearing about it for awhile.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 1:21:37 PM

Anthropoid

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Finally won my first battle. Set myself up with the three Derfflinger-class battlecruisers in 1917 (hypothetical that Lutzow didn't get sunk at Jutland) against the Russkies two Gangut BBs and both a set of support ships (3 or 4 CLs; 2 or 3 DDs) about equal numbers of ships in total. I thought that was a pretty good hypothetical battle with the AI not being too terribly outmatched. I also gave him one of the Borodino class BBs, which was quite difficult to sink actually!

Seems like I had one of my DDs sunk and I sank both his battleships.

Oh yeah, my crew(s) were "Crack" and his were "Average." That helped a lot I guess! :)

The AI is definitely "good" for this game, but does it "cheat" too? Meaning, does it actually handicap the human? Seems like even when I have a disproportionate advantage he does put up a good fight. Course in this particular battle, I sank all but three of his ships I think, so having that "Crack" crew really seems to help.

I found that "waiting till I see the whites of their eyes" seemed to work pretty well. Do you get any real benefit from cross the T in this engine?

Still no success replicating Togo's brilliance at Tsushima . . . gotta keep studying up on that . .

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 11/6/2010 1:27:52 PM >

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 3:08:14 PM

sabre1

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Anthropoid,

They do have an active forum over at NWS, and Chris is VERY good at answering any questions you may have. The only problem is you have to email Chris and ask to participate in their forums. I don't think he will turn you donw.

I have Supermacy at Sea, which is still being updated and supported: 1.18 as I type. I keep hoping NWS will tie in WSNC into SAS, so you we have the best of both worlds, strategic and tactical.

Now you have picqed my interest in WSNC. Dang, another game.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 3:20:43 PM

Anthropoid

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Yeah, I have a forum account setup but just haven't received authorization to post last time I tried. Will check again, and if I'm still not a poster check with Chris.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 10:25:29 PM

NefariousKoel

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Crew Quality makes a noticeable difference, yes, especially when there's more than one tier of difference that I've noticed. It is also factored into the point system I believe though the numbers seem to be so small I'd think it ends being a fraction much of the time??

Crossing the T will help because their firepower is halved firing into the fore and aft 90 degree arcs as the listed ratings are for full broadsides. It's even more noticeable since ammo expenditure is the same as a broadside for the moment, too, until he gets that fixed in one of the next updates. Take that with a grain of salt because the 3 minute turn allows you to turn completely around so it ends up being a guess as to which direction your target will move off to. This is the movement abstraction that rubs me a bit wrong as there's no way to notice what direction the enemy is turning and your reaction cycle is so far apart it seems more like the aircraft in Harpoon insta-turning. That becomes an issue at closer ranges.

I've registered on the forum, but it says the admin needs to okay it. I suspect he just hasn't got around to digging through the bb admin messages in a bit. No hurry.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/6/2010 10:36:37 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

because the 3 minute turn allows you to turn completely around so it ends up being a guess as to which direction your target will move off to.

Yeah, that part of it seemed rather "off" to me too?

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/9/2010 1:24:53 AM

HighwayStar

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Action Stations...spent many an hour at my Zenith 248 playing that one. Someone at Matrix Games needs to contact Alan Zimm and coax, cajole and/or beg him to join up and update his classic!

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/9/2010 1:29:03 AM

Razz1

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QQP's "The Grandest Fleet"?

Not me I love that game.

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RE: Good Naval Tactical Games? - 11/9/2010 6:11:09 PM

gabeeg

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For the NWS forums, make sure to follow the following posted instructions:

"Please note, all new memberships to these forums are moderated for approval so we can keep out unwanted visitors, spambots, and forum spammers. After submitting your forum membership information please contact us at following email address, make sure to include your forum ID logon name, for approval.

NWS-ONLINE@NWS-ONLINE.NET "

...Make sure to email Chris at the address above after registering so he knows you registered :)�� ...yeah kinda wonky but have to admit, I have not seen any spam in his forums.

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