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Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 6:30:55 PM   
Roger Neilson II


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Status: offline 		Is there somewhere in the manual that tells us what 'leakage/expenditure of supply there is to move stuff from point a to point b on a map? I'm sure this feature was in WITP, for example there was significant loss as supply moved from perth to the other side of Oz.

Am I imaging this? I'm not talking about loss of supply in bases, its the transport overland I am interested in.

Roger

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 9:19:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Is there somewhere in the manual that tells us what 'leakage/expenditure of supply there is to move stuff from point a to point b on a map? I'm sure this feature was in WITP, for example there was significant loss as supply moved from perth to the other side of Oz.

Am I imaging this? I'm not talking about loss of supply in bases, its the transport overland I am interested in.

Roger


I too recall this from WITP, and could have sworn it was in AE, but I just did a key-word search of the manual and found nothing. I hate it when two games overlap in my memory . . .

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 9:50:47 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Is there somewhere in the manual that tells us what 'leakage/expenditure of supply there is to move stuff from point a to point b on a map? I'm sure this feature was in WITP, for example there was significant loss as supply moved from perth to the other side of Oz.

Am I imaging this? I'm not talking about loss of supply in bases, its the transport overland I am interested in.

Roger


I too recall this from WITP, and could have sworn it was in AE, but I just did a key-word search of the manual and found nothing. I hate it when two games overlap in my memory . . .

You've made the cardinal error of not searching the "What's New""-PDF too!

quote:

95. Gameplay Change: Removed the wastage of resources/oil/fuel during overland
movement.


Edit: The OP specifically asked for supply wastage, my bad. Here's the relevant part of the manual:

quote:

15.3 GROUND UNIT SUPPLY
When tracing a supply path for movement of ground units or overland movement of supplies,
a supply value is generated. This is determined by tracing a path from the base transferringsupplies or the ground unit moving to the destination. This supply value determines whether
the move is legal, and how much of the supplies are used up during the move.
To order a ground unit move to a specific hex, the path of the move must generate a positive
supply value to constitute a valid supply path. Ground units will move along a path that provides
the best possible supply route from their current hex to their destination. For automatic supply
movement, the supply value must be greater than 0. The greater the supply value, the more
often supplies will be moved and the less supplies will be expended during the move.


< Message edited by VSWG -- 11/10/2010 9:56:01 PM >

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 10:01:32 PM   
VSWG


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Status: offline 		Interesting, in the WitP manual the paragraph looked like this:


quote:

When tracing a supply path for movement of ground units or overland movement of supplies, a
supply value is generated. This is determined by tracing a path from the base transferring
supplies or the ground unit moving to the destination. This supply value determines whether the
move is legal, and how much of the supplies are used up during the move. The supply value of a
move is calculated by subtracting the following from 100 (900 if a ground unit move):
  • 2 for each hex moved along a rail/highway
  • 5 for each hex moved along a road
  • 25 for each hex moved along a trail
  • 50 for each hex moved cross country


They removed the numbers, so I guess there was a change...


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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 10:01:32 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		See Table on pages 189-190 of the manual.

Alfred

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 10:03:53 PM   
VSWG


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Status: offline 		Cool, thanks. They should have mentioned that table in section 15.3.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 11:30:03 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

You've made the cardinal error of not searching the "What's New""-PDF too!

Ah. I key-word searched on "supplies" and skimmed. Missed the second half of the first sentence of 15.3

Didn't think of the PDF. So there was one, and now it's gone.




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RE: Supply attrition - 11/10/2010 11:31:04 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

See Table on pages 189-190 of the manual.

Alfred


That still only tells you the cost to move LCUs, not raw supplies, right? I'm getting punchy over here . . .

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 5:48:48 AM   
Roger Neilson II


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From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline 		All very interesting guys, like anything to do with AE (and WITP before) its never that straightforward.
My question is occasioned by reading some AARa that seem to indicate supplying large units overland where they are significantly away from a decent road/rail net does not sem to be a problem - yet supplying similar on a secondary road/rail net is.
Is this an 'urban myth' or is it in fact the case?

Roger

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 11:55:41 AM   
USSAmerica


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Status: offline 		Roger, I don't have all the details at my fingertips, but it should not be an urban myth.  Part of the road/rail "size" effect for supplying troops is the daily capacity.  Secondary roads and rails transport less supply per day, and often will move supplies less frequently.  For example, major roads may move supplies to a stack of troops 5 times in 7 days, but secondary roads may only move supplies to them 1 or 2 times in 7 days.  Arbitrary numbers used, just to illustrate. 

I hope that helps.


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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 1:00:47 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

See Table on pages 189-190 of the manual.

Alfred


That still only tells you the cost to move LCUs, not raw supplies, right? I'm getting punchy over here . . .


Table has 6 columns. From left to right they are:

1. Defence Value
2. Supply Cost
3. Move - Art/AA/Eng Move
4. Move - Inf/Para
5. Move - Armor
6. Move - Other

Columns 3-6 list how many miles can be travelled in each 12 hour phase by the indicated unit types. Column 1 shows the terrain defence bonus effect. Column 2 shows, and I quote, ahem, from the paragraph on top of the Table,

"the supply movement costs discussed in Section 15".

Alfred

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 1:42:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

See Table on pages 189-190 of the manual.

Alfred


That still only tells you the cost to move LCUs, not raw supplies, right? I'm getting punchy over here . . .


Table has 6 columns. From left to right they are:

1. Defence Value
2. Supply Cost
3. Move - Art/AA/Eng Move
4. Move - Inf/Para
5. Move - Armor
6. Move - Other

Columns 3-6 list how many miles can be travelled in each 12 hour phase by the indicated unit types. Column 1 shows the terrain defence bonus effect. Column 2 shows, and I quote, ahem, from the paragraph on top of the Table,

"the supply movement costs discussed in Section 15".

Alfred



So what you're telling me is that this section of the manual was written by someone from the governemnt? Reminds me of the days I spent wandering around in the Federal Acquisition Regulations.

http://farsite.hill.af.mil/vffara.htm


Ummm, tasty.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 4:37:42 PM   
Roger Neilson II


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From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline 		Ok I have tried reading this and my head hurts - a lot - I may need to lie down in a darkened room.

Anyone able to explain this so i can actually understand it - the way i'd like to understand it.

For example a group of units trace a supply path back to the next supply base across a river and two jungle hexes..... what does this do to their supply status????

Forgive me I was never a great mathematician......

Or do I just give up?

Roger

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 7:01:05 PM   
Feltan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Ok I have tried reading this and my head hurts - a lot - I may need to lie down in a darkened room.

Anyone able to explain this so i can actually understand it - the way i'd like to understand it.

For example a group of units trace a supply path back to the next supply base across a river and two jungle hexes..... what does this do to their supply status????

Forgive me I was never a great mathematician......

Or do I just give up?

Roger


Mr. Neilson,

Please do not give up! Ever! You will do a disservice to your fellow WITPAE collegues.

However, I don't think the decision that faces you is binary: it is not either figure it out with scientific precision, or give up. Rather, I found it useful to try a more holistic approach to the supply situation. I have a bias against wanting to know exact game algorithms in the first place, and that tendency is much greater when it comes to logistics. You posed a question, namely:

"For example a group of units trace a supply path back to the next supply base across a river and two jungle hexes..... what does this do to their supply status????"

In response I would say that if you are tracing ANY supply line across an unbridged river and 90 miles of jungle that your supply situation will be horrible. That is just real life application of a game situation. Personally, I do not want to know that 90 miles of jungle will reduce my supply intake by 87.493762%. No, it is OK for me to simply aknowledge that it will suck.

The game is accurate enough that given the above situation, your supply situation will be bad. That's good enough for me. Real life commanders wouldn't necessarily know more, they wouldn't have a handy algorithm to calculate how bad off they were -- and I don't want one either.

I know that doesn't answer your question, at least not how you posed it; however, it does give you an alternative way to face such a situation.

Regards,
Feltan






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RE: Supply attrition - 11/11/2010 7:17:28 PM   
Roger Neilson II


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Status: offline 		Its exactly how I figure it myself Feltan, and hope that my 'gut reaction' is that this is so. However I have read in at least one AAR - no names no pack drill - that units in non base hexes do not seem to have supply problems....... which does concern me a touch.

Doubtless I will discover in due course which is right, I'm just a little concerned that there is a slight gap between the reality and what happens at the moment, hence my question.

Last thing I want to touch is any figgering of numbers, but if anyone who does do this sort of thing could tell me one way or the other I might sleep better at nights.

Roger

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 1:10:22 PM   
morganbj


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Status: offline 		No, Roger, give up. I have.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 1:46:10 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

For example a group of units trace a supply path back to the next supply base across a river and two jungle hexes..... what does this do to their supply tstatus????

Here's my take on it (using the formula from WitP, and the terrain values from AE):

First of all, rivers don't matter.
Supply cost for a jungle hex (no road, trail, whatever): 20 (according to p. 189)

100 - (3*20) = 40 (three junlge hexes, 2 between the base and the unit, one for the hex the unit is in)

I take that to mean that 40% of the supplies sent from the base will arrive at the unit.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 2:38:31 PM   
d0mbo

 

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Status: offline 		The issue at hand is not really how much supply is lost on an exact basis, but the OP seems to have read and or experienced that units on a road or even in a base have less supplies available to them than the unit next to them in an undeveloped jungle hex! Shouldnt common sense dictate that that unit should be even worse off, instead of better?

I think I have read similar observations about units in the desert of Northern Australia being and staying in supply, while units on the road to tennant creek have much more trouble getting their needs fullfilled. If anything, it should be the other way around.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 2:56:36 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

The issue at hand is not really how much supply is lost on an exact basis, but the OP seems to have read and or experienced that units on a road or even in a base have less supplies available to them than the unit next to them in an undeveloped jungle hex! Shouldnt common sense dictate that that unit should be even worse off, instead of better?

I know, but this is part of the explanation.

Lets say there's a LCU at Akyab badly in need of 1000 supplies. On Dec. 7th, as a level 0 port / 0 fort / 3 AF, Akyab can draw 300 supplies max per turn. So the LCU cannot get all the supplies it needs (700 missing).

Now move the LCU one hex to the east, into the jungle. It can trace a supply path to Chittagong (lets assume this base has enough supplies) via 4 trail hexes and one jungle hex. The supply path value is (4x5)+(1x20)=40. So it draws 1000 supplies, and 600 arrive (400 missing).

Situation after 1 turn:
LCU at Akyab: 700 supplies still needed
LCU at jungle hex to the east: 400 supplies still needed

So the LCU is better off in the jungle than at Akyab.

This is probably a simplification of the supply model, and I really don't know if everything works as described above, but that's my take on the problem.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 11/12/2010 2:59:33 PM >

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 4:04:52 PM   
Roger Neilson II


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Status: offline 		Those last two posts seem to be closest to what i have read elsewhere on here.... which is a little disturbing.

Can't draw enough supply, then take your troops off the trail into the impenetrable jungle and you get more.... problem of your lorries moving over dirt tracks in an arid almost desert... then make them drive 40 miles into the sand and they'll give you more supply delivery.......

Anyone else seeing this?

Roger

< Message edited by Roger Neilson II -- 11/12/2010 4:05:42 PM >

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 7:07:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Those last two posts seem to be closest to what i have read elsewhere on here.... which is a little disturbing.

Can't draw enough supply, then take your troops off the trail into the impenetrable jungle and you get more.... problem of your lorries moving over dirt tracks in an arid almost desert... then make them drive 40 miles into the sand and they'll give you more supply delivery.......

Anyone else seeing this?

Roger


I think the issue of resupplying forces in the field is perennial for computer wargames. As stated in this thread, once the unit leaves its base for the bush it's difficult to stop it tracing a path to any other base, with terrain costs imposed. I suppose you could force a player to name a home base, and only allow the trace to it, or, more radically, force the LCU to live off what it took with it, which is ahistoric.

I'm sensitive to the coding difficulties of any system. I don't think there's a perfect one, and the more fiddly you make it the fewer players will really use it.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/12/2010 9:01:20 PM >

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 7:53:39 PM   
VSWG


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Status: offline 		Maybe add a supply cap for non-base hexes as well? Something like 100 supply per day per jungle hex, 200 supply per forest hex, 500 for clear hexes, etc.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 8:26:07 PM   
Oddball_France

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Maybe add a supply cap for non-base hexes as well? Something like 100 supply per day per jungle hex, 200 supply per forest hex, 500 for clear hexes, etc.



nice, but i would suggest no limit for clear hexes, and maybe more something like a percent of the max supply needed, capped.
jungle : 20% of the max supply of the units. Minimum : 100, maximum : 500 for all the units in the hexe
forest : 50% of the max supply of the units. Minimum : 200, maximum : 1000 for all the units in the hexe
clear : no specific limit (keep as it is)
(just examples)

to simulate the fact that the more you have units at a place, the more you have support, and thus supply (more trucks supplying 2 divs than 1 bn), but in any case, jungle is jungle and doesnt allow more than xxx supply to pass enter to.
The minimum is just a way to be able to use commandos and so on.


(sorry for my bad english)

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 9:02:44 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Maybe add a supply cap for non-base hexes as well? Something like 100 supply per day per jungle hex, 200 supply per forest hex, 500 for clear hexes, etc.


To move through, or to stay? I could see memory and/or processing time becoming a problem depending on how that was coded.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 9:47:06 PM   
VSWG


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Status: offline 		To stay.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 11:18:55 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

To stay.


I'm probably thick, but the only reason it would stay is if there's an LCU there, right? And then you're back to tracing.

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 11:22:29 PM   
VSWG


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Status: offline 		I'm suggesting that for instance only 100 supply points can enter a jungle hex per turn, no matter how many supplies are needed in this hex by LCUs.

"Tracing"?

PS: Did you get my PM?

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RE: Supply attrition - 11/12/2010 11:30:13 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

I'm suggesting that for instance only 100 supply points can enter a jungle hex per turn, no matter how many supplies are needed in this hex by LCUs.

"Tracing"?

PS: Did you get my PM?


Ah, I see what you're saying now. The tracing refers to the manual description of how LCUs decide to be supplied or not.

This thread has bolluxed me a bit because I thought Roger started out asking about supply loses while moving supply itself. IOW, "overland spoilage." It morphed into talking about resupplying LCUs in non-bases.

Yep, I got the PM. Sorry I didn't reply. I was in a posting frenzy that day.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/12/2010 11:32:40 PM >

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