RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 4:27:11 PM

briantopp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Looking at the map from 6th December 1941 indeed something has to be done as it took a lot to cover this flank and the 16. Armee was still back at the the lakes.
Look here I hope that helps:

Isn't too big is it?

Is this the same map found here?

http://www.archiv-oberaussem.com/wiki_alt/heereskarten/karten.html

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 4:42:55 PM

briantopp

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So this build should address this issue with the 16th army. I moved the Axis stop line to a more reasonable position vis-a-vis AGN and I tweaked Soviet orders to give the Axis a good motive to defend the northern part of their line properly.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 5:29:13 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Checked it with this one I posted, seems like 1st week of December 1941.

Klink

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 9:04:37 PM

BigDuke66

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I think those could be a copy of the original maps that formed the base for the redrawn maps in the book, as you see it's already heavily used. The maps from the book only cover the basic terrain features like road, rail, swamp, city, etc. but that gives a much better overview.
The base for the book are maps from the Bundesarchiv/Milit�rarchiv.
But a 1:1 copy from those "real" maps would be great but somehow I doubt to get my hands on them.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 9:58:47 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Imperial War Museum or, well, ja. Das Bundesarchiv in Freiburg oder die MGFA in Koblenz :) Polarenper and I posted some of the resource links already. The most links I found here: http://www.frank-busse.de/verweise/geschichte.php

Gruss,

Klink, Oberst
STALAG 13

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 10:41:52 PM

1_Lzard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp
Here is the latest build of this scenario -- quite a number of tweaks informed by the discussions above and more playtesting.

Brian, are you planning a new 'readme' for this scenario? I see some of the 'numbers' have changed from the 1.37 version, eh?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 10:47:44 PM

BigDuke66

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@Oberst_Klink
Interesting collection, do you know if one could get copies out of these official sources(Freiburg/Koblenz)?

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/16/2010 2:49:13 AM >

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 12:53:34 AM

briantopp

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Yep I need to rewrite all the descriptions etc.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 6:16:53 AM

1_Lzard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp
Yep I need to rewrite all the descriptions etc.

Good deal!

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 6:39:54 AM

samba_liten

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It is possible to get copies from the German archives, but i do not know where the maps are stored, so when i emailed them i just got a list of research assistants to help me locate them for reply. It was too expensive for me to employ someone just to feed my hobby!

You can also get copies from the archives in America, which might end up being cheaper.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 10:08:43 AM

sPzAbt653

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Turn 60 Theater Option for 'Axis supply surge available (approx. 4 turns)'. Are there any other effects such as a supply penalty after the 4 turns ?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 3:10:58 PM

briantopp

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Assuming everything is still working right, that is the "Operation Blau" supply surge, now available to AGC. What that theater event does is turn the three German supply centres from 100-point centres to 250-point centres, for a few turns. So it should give you a big supply boost (the centres then revert to 100-points). This is executed in an optional theatre event to give you some flexibility -- you can use it to fuel a renewed offensive, or hoard it to help fend off a later Soviet offensive. Again always assuming everything still works, there should also have been a large increase in your "on hand" replacements, in most types of replacements (in the most recent build that I posted, I removed the armour replacemenrs from this set of events and replaced them with the actual production figures as discussed on this site above).

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 9:41:36 PM

sPzAbt653

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I hadn't clicked the TO yet because I was wondering what the effects were. I'm pretty much mopping up around Moscow so probably don't need it right now. But if Ivan starts denting my line it would come in handy as you suggested to fend him off. Does the To expire, or does it stay around until used ?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/16/2010 10:46:02 PM

briantopp

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It stays around until used (unless I've messed it up in recent edits).

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 1:40:54 AM

BigDuke66

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I think this is better for editing the deployment instead of me painting around on screenshots:
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/29.09.1941HGMitte.jpg
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/01.10.1941HGMitte.jpg
Beware that both are set on the evening so to get the correct position for 1.10.1941 in the morning you have to see where the were on the former map.
Maybe also useful for editing the map, for example the distance between Andreapol(20,21), Peno(26,18) & Ostaskov(28,16) looks equal on those maps but in the game Peno is much closer to Ostaskov.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/17/2010 1:44:28 AM >

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 2:45:44 AM

BigDuke66

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What still gives me a headache are the tanks, I wonder why they aren't closer to the original dates at least as starting point for adjustments.

Panzer 35(t) no replacements and Panzer 38(t) should maybe stop coming in around July 1942, the units using them should have besides them a normal layout of PII, III & IV on which those units can depend when the Czech tanks disappear.

Similar the Panzer I whose duties the Panzer II takes over.

Now to the Panzer III, important is that the German player gets/uses only PIII H(who also simulates upgraded versions of PIII E,F,G,H & early J) up to December 1941 because that was the best at that time. In December 1941 player should start getting the Panzer III J(anti-tank raises from 4 to 6 because of the longer gun, 50% raise is a lot) to stop/slow down the Soviet winter offensive and build up offensive potential for the 1942 summer offensive.
Between 20.6.-15.7.1942 38% of all PIII have the long gun.
And finally the L version(covering L & M) that can come in by summer 1942 who together with the J forms the first pillar for continuing the summer offensive but also for stopping/slowing the Soviet winter offensive(by November 1942 59% of all PIII use the long gun).

Now to the Panzer IV, the E(covering also earlier models) shouldn't get any replacements, instead the F1 should have replacements running up to March 1942 where the F2(covering F2 & G) takes over, again important is that the player gets already some in time for the 1942 summer offensive as it's the second pillar (beside the PIII with long gun) for that offensive, between 20.6.-15.7.1942 30% of all PIV have the long gun, and also for stopping/slowing the Soviet winter offensive(by November 1942 65% of all PIV use the long gun).

Overall important is:
-The outsourcing of the Czech tanks and the Panzer I.
-The dependence of the short gun PIII for 1941.
-The build up of the offensive potential after the Soviet winter offensive thru the long gun versions of the PIII(December 1941) and Panzer IV(March 1942) for the German 1942 summer offensive.
-Additional PIII production in form of the L version for keeping the PIII as the backbone for for stopping/slowing the Soviet winter offensive.

PIII production figures are:
E=96(up to October 1939)
F=435(September 1939 - July 1940)
G=450(April 1940 - February 1941)
H=308(October 1940 - April 1941)
J(50mm L/42)=1549(March 1941 - July 1942)
J(50mm L/60)=1067(starting December 1941)
L=703(June 1942 - December 1942)
M=292(October 1942 - February 1943)
N=666(June 1942 - December 1943)

PIV production figures are:
D=202(October 1939 - December 1940)
E=223(December 1939 - February 1941)
F1=462(April 1941 - March 1942)
F2=190(March 1942 - July 1942)
G=1687(May 1942 - June 1943)

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 3:14:22 AM

briantopp

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Wow those are amazing maps! Thank you I'll take a careful look at the deployment and the game map.

Tanks: The tricky part here is implementing complex equipment transitions within TOAW. There are basically two ways to do it: create empty "slots" that are filled with new equipment produced at a set time in the game; or withdrawing a unit and then re-entering it with enhanced equipment. I'm thinking a combination of the two fits circumstances here. At least three panzer divisions were withdrawn and then re-entered in this period -- this is easy to model in TOAW. All of the pz-regiments should get equipment transitions as you suggest. The remaining issue is repairs and rebuilds -- if I zero pzIIIhs in midgame, in this scenario the park will rapidly disappear I fear, leaving these units "undertanked".

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 3:14:49 AM

sPzAbt653

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Maybe found some mirror units. Turn 64, the 93rd and 385th German Infantry Divisions of 40th PzK arrive. Turn 65 the same divisions but of the 27th Corps arrive. Double fun!

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 3:29:10 AM

briantopp

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More on the maps: things aren't too bad, really. A few differences of detail in 16th, 9th, 4th and 2nd army, easily tweaked. The big issue is the deployment of 2nd panzer group which is very different on these maps than what I have (no surprise, since I made up the deployment here to compensate for the fact that Guderian got a 1.5 day advance on the rest of the offensive, and so was in motion when this scenario begins). I guess I could simply reproduce the October 1st position by setting up 2nd pz gp right where it really was -- already fairly deeply engaged with the Soviet line.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 3:44:44 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

...complex equipment transitions within TOAW.

Maybe the at start panzers could have (using 1st Pz Div as the example):
36 IIIh
22 IIf
10 IVe
6 Pz I's
0/20 IIIj
0/10 IVf2
In this case the IVe and IIIh replacements can stop before the IVf2 and IIIj begin, to prevent the units becoming too heavy.

And a later version to be switched out by TO around April/May:
20/40 IIIj
20/20 IIIh (with no replacements available)
10/10 IVe (with no replacements available)
10/20 IVf2
20/20 IIf
0/10 IIIL

Just a suggestion.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 5:08:12 AM

briantopp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Maybe found some mirror units. Turn 64, the 93rd and 385th German Infantry Divisions of 40th PzK arrive. Turn 65 the same divisions but of the 27th Corps arrive. Double fun!

oops! that sounds like one of them there mistakes

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 5:43:55 AM

briantopp

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So here is what I' ve done up to version 1.46. Still working on this -- so still no warranty, given or implied. [EDIT: I've taken down the file -- a fatal event error crept in. 1.47 will be up shortly - bt]

Here's what's new since I first posted this here:

- I've altered the Axis initial deployment to more closely resemble bigduke66's maps, posted above. 16th army is deployed a little further to the west and does not have the SS-cav brigade (which is deployed instead to AGC reserve, where apparently it was). Some of the deployments of 9th, 4th and 2nd armies are tinkered with. And 2nd panzer group is set up in mid-lunge through the Soviet line, having been on the move for a day and a half when the scenario begins. 48th panzer corps is deployed on the extreme right flank where, apparently, it was. 2nd panzer group's infantry is still arriving from the southwest as the scenario begins. bidduke could I trouble you to have a look at this and see what you think?

- 16th army's stretch of the "Axis stop line" is reworked to prevent these two corps of 16th army from ahistorically abandoning contact with the rest of their army, offmap to the north. Some of the Soviet PO's orders in the north have been reworked to take account of 16th army's different position and to build in the historical incentive for 16th army to not leave an open northern flank.

- I've corrected the double arrival of 93rd and 385th infantry divisions (I suggest you disband the second helping in your current game, sPzAbt653 -- a gift from OKW into your replacements).

- The initial dry season lasts 6 turns instead of 8, and the various fall/winter weather effects all happen two turns earlier to get the scenario closer to the "average" weather in this theatre.

- A number of errors that crept into the events during various iterations are corrected (when you add new events, some of the old ones further down get scrambled, I relearn).

- All the weather effects on German supply centres are fully implemented.

- I've taken a first stab at reworking the German armour force. 6th, 7th and 10th panzer are withdrawn in the spring of 1942, as occured historically, and reappear in late summer with modernized equipment. Other panzer divisions receive more advanced pzIIIs and pzIVs incrementally. There are some more suggestions on the board tonight on this topic that I'm going to think about, but this build gets us closer I think.

- Soviet air units get a lower proficiency, to reduce unlikely German-Soviet kill ratios.

- German rail transport is slashed when the first winter arrives (locomotives are uninsulated) and then gradually recovers.

- German automatic rail repair is slashed and some additional railway pioneers are deployed. The Axis now has to do its own rail-repair and conversions, mostly.

- I've cleaned up some (hopefully close to all) of the blank news events.

Thank you for the notes and feedback -- have reminded me how fun it is to do these like this.

< Message edited by briantopp -- 11/17/2010 6:53:47 PM >

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 4:55:46 PM

briantopp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

...complex equipment transitions within TOAW.

Maybe the at start panzers could have (using 1st Pz Div as the example):
36 IIIh
22 IIf
10 IVe
6 Pz I's
0/20 IIIj
0/10 IVf2
In this case the IVe and IIIh replacements can stop before the IVf2 and IIIj begin, to prevent the units becoming too heavy.

And a later version to be switched out by TO around April/May:
20/40 IIIj
20/20 IIIh (with no replacements available)
10/10 IVe (with no replacements available)
10/20 IVf2
20/20 IIf
0/10 IIIL

Just a suggestion.

To be sure I'm getting it: so the "mark II" pz regiments would each need to be withdrawn and replaced in the spring of 1942, correct? So the Axis player would need to know a schedule in which, each turn for eight turns or so, two pz divisions or so would lose their pz regiment which would then reappear as reinforcements. Not unreasonable given that, historically, the pz regiments were hollow shells by midwinter 42 and so not doing much on the front line. But a bit of a logistics nightmare for the Axis player (I like logistics nightmares -- I'd love to implement an on-map supply system). Is this what happens in FITE in its recent iterations and does it work?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 5:28:33 PM

sPzAbt653

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You can use Theater Options for each unit that you want to 'refit'. When the TO for a given unit is chosen, the 'old' units withdraw or disband by event (depending on whether you want the old equipment to go into the 'on hand' or not) and the new versions arrive. This allows the player to control the situation.

In D21, since we are refitting all of the pz div's, we put the TO's on a wide turn range so they wouldn't all show up at once (I think the TO list only holds 16 at a time, or something). Plus, since the new units have to be railed to the front from the west map edge, the rail capacity keeps the player from doing them all at once. In D21 it works very nicely. The player gets a handful of TO's and can decide which units to withdraw from the front line, then click the TO and they will withdraw, and new units arrive as reinforcements. Not a logistics nightmare, but a little bit of planning is involved.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 6:58:39 PM

briantopp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

You can use Theater Options for each unit that you want to 'refit'. When the TO for a given unit is chosen, the 'old' units withdraw or disband by event (depending on whether you want the old equipment to go into the 'on hand' or not) and the new versions arrive. This allows the player to control the situation.

In D21, since we are refitting all of the pz div's, we put the TO's on a wide turn range so they wouldn't all show up at once (I think the TO list only holds 16 at a time, or something). Plus, since the new units have to be railed to the front from the west map edge, the rail capacity keeps the player from doing them all at once. In D21 it works very nicely. The player gets a handful of TO's and can decide which units to withdraw from the front line, then click the TO and they will withdraw, and new units arrive as reinforcements. Not a logistics nightmare, but a little bit of planning is involved.

What do you think about a hardwired spring 1942 "big bang" to get it over with, with a mandatory mud season two-turn ceasefire when playing PBEM to avoid gamey funny business (like a well-timed Soviet offensive)?

7 theatre option "slots" are potentially blocked in this scenario with optional emergency reserves. There are 16 panzer divisions in theatre so a fair number of new TOs.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 7:36:22 PM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Looks great, and it cover my favorite period (WW2 -Russia or N. Afrika) gotta get it! Thanks for all the hard work. Didnt you do Fall Blau?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 7:38:01 PM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Yup! Got it, thanks.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 8:15:48 PM

briantopp

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This is build 1.48. In addition to the edits set out above, it:

-�sets up a hardwired recall and rebuilt for all of the panzer regiments in keeping with the discussion above. So in this draft, on turn 54 (with lots of warning news events), all of the panzer battalions are withdrawn and reappear�around the German supply hexes, having been given updated TO&Es (with new slots for further new equipment). A news event tells PBEM opponents to observe a two-turn ceasefire. Elmer would have to be fought off. My idea is to get this over with, with minimum disruption or windows for gamey play. A brute force solution to be sure.

- corrects some really bad new events errors (when you add an event at the top of the stack, it scrambles all events that follow that reference a unit. So, several withdrawals scripted in the stack were withdrawing the wrong units. It would be nice if it didn't do that).

- corrects Axis PO objectives to take better account of the new deployments.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by briantopp -- 11/17/2010 8:16:26 PM >

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 8:19:02 PM

briantopp

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I did do a "fall blau" on this scale (and lost the file during a badly-planned computer upgrade). I might look at that again next.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/17/2010 9:19:21 PM

BigDuke66

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Indeed the equipment transition is tricky and I guess it will have to be tweaked again and again till its OK but that's the reason I suggest to use the really dates and production figures as starting point and from there you can move in the direction that is needed.

I would suggest to only withdraw Pz regiments and replace them with new ones if absolute necessary because the performance up to that point is erased because even if the old equipment lands in the pool the tank inventory of the new units will sometimes vary strongly from the old unit so you get a unit that is maybe much stronger or weaker than the one it replaces, as stated this is a disconnection to the performance the player made before and very unrealistic to a unit that stays on the frontline.
I only see that really necessary in April 43 when the basic layout of the Panzer units changes from PIII to PIV as main tank or of course if the unit moved out of the theater for a long time like the 6th & 7th Pz divisions(the 10th moved to Africa and was wiped out there)did.

BTW is there a reason not to move the starting date to the 2nd October when the rest of HG Mitte starts the offensive?(Besides Panzergruppe 2 starting already on the 30th September but you see its position on 1.10.41 in the evening so positioning them shouldn't be a problem).
I also thought about moving the starting date to a sooner date but with the half-week turns it just doesn't fit because the PG 2 has either 1 or even 2 days to much(not sure if the first turn covers 4 or 3 days) when getting the date in-line with the 2nd October when the rest attacks.

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