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Steppe Terrain - 11/18/2010 7:35:19 PM

Mad Russian

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Here is a side by side comparison to what you see on Google Earth and what MM sees when you do a Ukrainian map.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 2:21:25 AM

Thrym

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Question...I guess rural Ukraine hasn't seen the kind of modernization that has taken place over much of the eastern Europe but, there has to have been some roads built since 1943. Even new railroad lines maybe...or missile silos from the 50s-80s.

What I am wondering, the map-maker maps will be using current google maps right...how prototypical can you make them? Can you look at a vintage map from pre-1940 and see if a road or canal or even a pond is missing and make the proper changes?

And if so, how easy would it be?

Thanks for your time,
T

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 7:45:53 AM

Mad Russian

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I can do whatever I want with a map. I start with MM'ers terrain map but I've yet to use it 100%. There are quite a few sources of period maps now. Both in books and on the internet.

Once I get the height map and the terrain map I save them with a map name.

I can add or subtract anything. The map editor only responds to the colors in the terrain map. Any paint/photo editor can get you a color palette. The video tutorials show using the Paint.net program because it's both free and easy to use.

You want a road? Then draw any color line you like and make one.

You want a road taken out extend whatever color is being used by either you or MM for the field next to the road and color over the road with the field color.

Once you've given the terrain map the colors you want MM to use then you can save it and reopen the map in MM. At that point you can assign terrain types and textures to the colors you have on the map. You can do this any number of times.

You will notice that there is a sunshine line on the Google Earth display and it shows up in the terrain map. That's one thing that often needs touched up. Clouds as well. While sunshine and clouds are both nice they have no place as ground textures in my battle maps so I change the colors to whatever I want.

You can skip the entire process of using GE and just import your own height and terrain maps which you can make 100% from scratch if you like. That process is not quick and easy but it is available for those that may want to create their own.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 7:52:46 AM

Mad Russian

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What I'll be looking to get right here is that:

There are NO trees except there in the lower left hand corner.
The Balka and it's course.
The dirt roads.
The small village.

This will be an easy map because the ground texture is pretty much uniform over this entire 4km. The bottom row middle of MM shows what size map we are working on. The 2000m delineates a 2k map. Now J2D says people only want 2k maps so the Germans can shoot up his Soviet forces at longer distances. This fight takes place in the summer 1942 so the longest range gun the Germans have is a 50L60 here. The T-34's will actually have the advantage at longer distances and it's the Germans that must get close to be effective.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/19/2010 4:46:45 PM >

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:07:43 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thrym

Question...I guess rural Ukraine hasn't seen the kind of modernization that has taken place over much of the eastern Europe but, there has to have been some roads built since 1943.

There has to be some consideration to modernization but if you use common sense it usually works itself out. Land utilization has been going on for centuries before WWII. There is a reason fields are in the places they are and roads are where they are. On a map like this with just a small village I would expect the road net to be the roughly the same. People don't just build roads for no reason. On a map we just did by Smolensk there was a brand new connecting highway. Unfortunately, as nice as the new highway is it didn't make into that map.

The first thing to remember is 95% of all roads in Russia were dirt. Some just wider than others. In this map there will only be dirt roads. One main one and several "country" roads where you have the 2 tire tracks through the grass.

quote:

What I am wondering, the map-maker maps will be using current google maps right...how prototypical can you make them? Can you look at a vintage map from pre-1940 and see if a road or canal or even a pond is missing and make the proper changes?

What you see more than anything are changes to the water course where streams and rivers have been dammed up. That's pretty obvious whether the stream widens out and had a free flow or it hits a dam with a road over it.

Making maps can get very interesting as many from the CM community on here can attest to. Talk to Harry about some of his maps sometime. That can be a real education.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/19/2010 5:13:24 PM >

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:40:22 PM

Mad Russian

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Step one is putting in the roads. Here I've used 3 different colors. A light blue for the main dirt road in the area. A gray for the secondary dirt roads to lesser locations. A bright green to show where the "country" roads in the area are.

The bright green is actually the grassy part between the two wheel tracks. I'll come back later and line that with another color for the actual wheel tracks. Probably it will be the same gray as the secondary road color.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:45:17 PM

Mad Russian

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Then I come in and more clearly define the village area in an off white color.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:50:48 PM

Mad Russian

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Time to decide how much work we want to do to this map. Just how much ground texture is there in this area?

We do a little zooming in on GE and take a look.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:51:05 PM

Thrym

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Hey thanks for the great info here!

One other question...I create layouts for a game, Trainz...there is a way to import height data from DEM maps with that piece of software, will the map maker allow DEM map creation?

Thanks again for all your hard work! Can't wait to buy this game.
T

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Post #: 9

RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 5:58:57 PM

Mobius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thrym

Hey thanks for the great info here!

One other question...I create layouts for a game, Trainz...there is a way to import height data from DEM maps with that piece of software, will the map maker allow DEM map creation?

Thanks again for all your hard work! Can't wait to buy this game.
T

That's half of it. All the latest new maps were made from DEMS of srtm data. The MM automatically applies the srtm data to the exact GE picture.

To your other question about resolving the current look to the WW2 look. As the land probably hasn't changed unless they have built a dam on your river the hills will be in the same location.
Here is a map I made of an area in Romania. There currently are houses lining the roads, but I left them out as the source I used to determine the area of a battle make no mention of them.

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 6:09:23 PM

Mad Russian

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Then I'll define the field at the bottom of the map. I had to hand edit the barren patches in the field. I used a blue gray color for that.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/19/2010 6:22:45 PM >

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 7:24:46 PM

Thrym

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->>Mobius<<--

Thats an AWESOME looking map! Can't wait to see these in action...as you can see from my post count, this game is what brought me out of 'hiding'. Does anyone know if there any thoughts on expanding the scope of Panzer Command to include the September Campaign and even the continuation with the fall of France and into North Africa(I know this is beyond the current focus, i.e, Eastern Front). I like to start in 1939 and keep my units together all the way through the war at least as far as I can anyway.

Sorry for thread-jacking...just so darn excited about what I am seeing in this thread!!!
T

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 7:53:46 PM

junk2drive

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Mobius map plays well too. It is a 2k map that will probably get used for lots of battles.

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 9:26:31 PM

Mad Russian

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If you look closely at the GE shot you see there are two fields in our battle area not just one. One at both the top and bottom of the battle area.

I'll define the second field with a reddish brown and some secondary colors for texturing the field.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/19/2010 9:36:26 PM

Mad Russian

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Now to do what you asked about. We were looking for a very small village in this area in 1942. We haven't found it. I'm not 100% sure where it's at but I'm 95% sure.

The Russians were using scorched earth on both the Germans and Ukrainian's so it could be extremely hard to locate. In this case it's a few buildings and it's the terrain in the area that's important so we'll just add that village where I think it is.

I'll do that by outlining it in the same off white color as I put in the known village.

The new village I input is north of the first village to the south side of the northern field.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/19/2010 9:37:01 PM >

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 3:31:14 PM

Mad Russian

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Once we have the colors on the map the way we want them we start assigning textures.

Here is what the lower field looks like without the bluegray texture applied yet.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 3:32:36 PM

Mad Russian

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Here are the textures applied to the country roads. You can see the individual outside tire tracks.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 4:15:40 PM

Mad Russian

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Time to give myself another option. The villages were in an off white/cream color but that color was using in other places on the map as well. So, to make sure I can get the kinds of textures in the villages I want I changed that color to yellow.

I also added the farmstead out on the end of the country road to the bottom right.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 4:21:42 PM

heinrich55

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MR,
Really nice walkthrough. I'm learning a lot. I'm cautiously excited about trying mapmaking and scenario design, since MM seems to make things so much more possible. I toyed with the idea in CM but was a bit intimidated by the process so I never tried it. This looks very do-able, even for those such as myself who have never tried it before. Its inclusion in PCO is very neat.

Heinrich55

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 4:34:15 PM

Mad Russian

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The colors on the map serve two purposes. It allows you to assign a particular visual texture it. Like with the fields. It also allows me to assign a terrain type to that color that affects game play.

Which means at times there are colors that would get the same texture but different terrain attributes.

That's happening in the Balka. I'm recoloring the balka to a tan color to allow me to give it a different terrain type than the rest of the map.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/20/2010 4:56:35 PM >

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 10:02:37 PM

Mad Russian

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I left the elevation alone. MM asks if you want to smooth the map when it first makes it and I always tell it no.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/20/2010 11:19:50 PM

Mad Russian

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The last step before beginning to assign textures is to take off all the bright green and use it only for the small patch of woods.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/21/2010 2:37:48 AM

Mad Russian

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After a few tries with the textures this is what I have at the moment.

2 road textures.
2 field textures.
1 tree texture.
1 balka texture
8 steppe textures
1 village/farm texture.

15 colors on the map and 15 textures assigned to them. Many of the steppe textures are the same. The shadow across the map added at least 4 colors and made me duplicate at least 4 of the textures.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/21/2010 2:58:27 AM

Mad Russian

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:Here is what the terrain map looks like after I touched it up and smoothed it gently twice.

Dark is low and light is high.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Steppe Terrain - 11/21/2010 2:59:57 AM

Mad Russian

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Here is the terrain map overlaid over the height map so you can get an idea of how it all comes together and how you can "look through" the terrain to see the height to make your adjustments.

Good Hunting.

MR