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First Impression - 11/20/2010 12:57:03 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		As a not too satisfied owner of the original Making History, I still wanted to see what was new. I downloaded the demo from M.L. and played a bit.

My biggest problem with the original game was in a far too over simplified battle routine and loss of strength methodology. In Making History II this has been considerably improved. The strength is reduced rather than whole formations just vanishing.

The economics was a strong point in the old game. I have just given this a quick look over so far. However, it is clear that economics, research, diplomacy and trade have also been improved and expanded. This should result in a very good grand strategy game.

I am tempted to pick this up. I will have to toy with the demo a bit more.

In the Matrix store the game turn is described as monthly-it is not. The turns are actually weekly-as it was in the old game.

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson

Post #: 1
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:06:00 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		MH2 Review

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 2
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:09:06 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Larry,

Please note that review was of the original release, which had issues. The updated version which we are selling is IMHO significantly improved. We would not have sold it without the updates.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 3
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:11:47 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
In the Matrix store the game turn is described as monthly-it is not. The turns are actually weekly-as it was in the old game.


Fixed, thanks for the heads up.


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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 4
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:14:17 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		Thank goodness, because I played the demo the Muzzy Lane site had of MH2 and I was more than not impressed. I was the one that talked 06Maestro into buying the first version of Making History and he was not too happy with it, so I felt a bit guilty about it.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 5
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:14:58 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		We'll have an updated demo up soon, feel free to give that a try as well.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 6
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:18:23 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		Good, I will try it as soon as it is available. I really want to like this game, but so far it has been a clickfest with economics for me.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 7
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:22:32 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I was the one that talked 06Maestro into buying the first version of Making History and he was not too happy with it, so I felt a bit guilty about it.


No big deal Larry-I based my decision to buy on the demo. What it did cover showed a great game in nation management-too bad it ended before the crazy stuff started. That was not your fault.

This new version looks much, much better. I off to give it another whirl.




_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 8
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:24:47 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		Is the demo from Muzzy Lane the same as what Matrix will release?

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 9
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:36:28 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not actually sure which version they have on their site right now, but if it's completely up to date then it should be basically the same.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 10
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:39:42 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		How long until your demo will be here Erik?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 11
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 1:43:46 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Larry,

Might be over the weekend, latest Monday I'd say.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 12
RE: First Impression - 11/20/2010 3:11:25 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline 		That review is not very flattering. Aside from fixing bugs and crashes, was anything else tweaked, like the AI or the diplomacy? Will America respond to german attacks on poland by invading chile? I have to admit, I have not heard much good about this game, and would need some convincing before I would buy it.
Not much posting here yet, but I would like to hear from previous owners about this game.
Thanks
Will matrix have a box version later?

< Message edited by vonRocko -- 11/20/2010 3:26:06 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: First Impression - 11/21/2010 12:18:03 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		If and when an editor is released, I will buy it from Matrix. Right now, MH Gold has an excellent editor and works fine for me. I tried Muzzy Lane's demo (prior to 1.2) and it did nothing for me personally.

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 14
RE: First Impression - 11/21/2010 1:53:39 PM   
Schnaufer

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 11/21/2010
Status: offline 		I own the version from Steam.
Not a very good game in my opinion. The manual is very sparse as to how things work exactly, and the parameters for winning are vague.
As stated above the combat is rather simplistic, and political decisions are often wierd. Countries break away, heck even your own territories break away.
Every game I tried, as different countries, the economy always goes into massive defecit if you are trying to build any troops or military vehicles.
Definately follows the trend of not much manual, and you are expected to learn things from gleaning forums. Developers charge full price for the software, but leave most information out.

I am no grognard, but I do try to get some entertainment from these things. And this game is simply not enjoyable to me.
Before any flames are incoming, remember it is just one persons opinion.
Have a good one

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 15
RE: First Impression - 11/21/2010 6:05:39 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schnaufer
As stated above the combat is rather simplistic, and political decisions are often wierd. Countries break away, heck even your own territories break away.


I have not really gotten into the combat part of the game yet-hopefully there is a way to control the events through proper management. It may be, but it will take some digging to find out.


quote:


Every game I tried, as different countries, the economy always goes into massive defecit if you are trying to build any troops or military vehicles.


It is all too easy to run big deficits. Playing as Italy I was able to balance the budget and run a healthy surplus-while building. However, it has become clear that if you are going to have enough of "stuff"-including universities and a military-it is not possible to have a balanced budget. This is historical, but I wonder to what extreme it can be taken without negative reactions. There really should be a limit before inflation-or something starts.


quote:


Definately follows the trend of not much manual, and you are expected to learn things from gleaning forums. Developers charge full price for the software, but leave most information out.


The manual is...rather on the lite side. I also went to the website to pick up some more info. There are some useful threads there. It is clear they are aware that the manual is short on info.

It can be figured out-it will just take a little longer. I put in a couple hours yesterday and have gotten the trade and research figured out. Improving cities and regions seems simple enough. Next up is diplomacy. I really hope that the ai is not as crazy as the old game (I had the Calm & the Strom).

On the positive side the base economical model seems to be rational-and very interesting. I am hoping to see some downside to massive debts though. If there are not any, then the real constraints to national power is in the starting industry and manpower points-and the ability to trade to get what you need.


_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to Schnaufer)
Post #: 16
RE: First Impression - 11/22/2010 9:57:15 PM   
olperfessor


Posts: 98
Joined: 4/28/2003
From: New York, N.Y.
Status: offline 		The version should not matter. Every time you play the game, your computer connects with Muzzy Lane, and any updates or patches are done automatically.

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 17
RE: First Impression - 11/22/2010 10:09:58 PM   
MuzzyDev


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/20/2010
Status: offline 		Hi All,

Erik suggested I check out this forum and view your discussion.

First, as has already been pointed out, the game that Matrix is selling is way different than the game released in June and reviewed by Gamespot and a few others. It's true we bent to retail pressure and released a game in very rocky shape. We discussed this at length with Troy Goodfellow in an interview posted on Flash of Steel here: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/09/27/making-history-makes-things-clear/

The fact that the game has continued to change and improve since then is the major reason for the lack of proper documentation. I wrote a detailed manual and most of it was cut because of changes to the game before it went to press.

AFA the economy putting you in debt early in the game, it's kind of the way things happened back then, and there are several ways to turn it around and get your economy under control. Getting more resources through trade and creating textiles and appliances instead of goods, selling excess food, and slowly growing your cities so you can produce more.

We are working on improving player notification and continuing to streamline the UI. The 1.20 update improved the AI, and that is also a continued focus.

We think the core game has the potential to be something very special and we're continuing to try to make it into the game we imagined it would be.

So give it a try and let us know what you think of its present state. I'm not sure if the demo is up here yet, but feel free to get the one from our site. Just come back here to buy it :-).

Thanks,

Chris--

_____________________________

Chris Parsons
Product Manager
Muzzy Lane Software

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 18
RE: First Impression - 11/22/2010 10:10:42 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		Don't mean to pile on here, but I haven't heard anyone mention the look of this game. I tried the demo, and this kind of pseudo 3D thing with giant men standing on parcels of land looks kind of goofy in my opinion...and the way the map is tilted seems to serve no purpose in my opinion. If you like this look, that's fine, but is there anyone out there who is turned off by this? I played the demo for 5 minutes and turned it off because of this...

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 19
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 12:38:52 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		MuzzyDev;

It means a lot to every gamer that comes here for you to post here with us. Thank you very much for your post and information, and above all your honesty about the early version of the game and the manual.

I am one of the gamers that always got stuck in a loop with the economy. I own the original and the Gold edition, and it was always the same. Economy woes. Too much like real life to enjoy doing it too in a game. I will keep your advice in mind should I play the demo from Matrix.

One question... any hope for a future manual?

Thanks again for your post.

(in reply to MuzzyDev)
Post #: 20
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 12:46:16 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		I agree the tilted view is not the best way to view a strategic level map. It does make the cities look better though

The view can be changed by using the "end" key to give a top down view. It can be tilted again by using "home" key. I confirmed it works.

< Message edited by 06 Maestro -- 11/23/2010 12:47:17 AM >

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to TPM)
Post #: 21
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 1:08:00 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Chris

I am still using the demo, which may be limited in some respects. I am hesitant to make broad statements about the game without knowing about an item for certain.

I find the eonomics of the game very interesting and well done. Research is likewise quite comprehensive. In time I'm sure I will find something that should be changed though.

I have found a strange thing in diplomacy. I do not know if it is limited to the demo or the particular scenario. When playing as Italy starting in '39 Germany does not DoW Poland or anyone. After a month or two getting the economy somewhat on track I have Italy DoW and Invade France. Both before the DoW and after the invasion I have requested an alliance with Germany (several times). The response is alway that "we see no reason to get involved with your war with France"-or something very similar. This strikes me as quite odd. It seems some nations should be predisposed to join with others upon request.

In the Same Italy game I have found the military results of my endeavorer to be somewhat plausible-after a massive surprise attack Italy advances several provinces deep and then it is promptly wiped out by superior French forces. This makes more sense than what some other well known strategic games that are available allow to happen.

My demo just installed an update, but the opening screen shows two different versions-one on the bottom left and the other on the right.

As Larry mentioned, it is always good to see a dev responding to comments about their game. Thanks for your honesty too.



< Message edited by 06 Maestro -- 11/23/2010 1:12:25 AM >

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 22
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 2:50:52 AM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I agree the tilted view is not the best way to view a strategic level map. It does make the cities look better though

The view can be changed by using the "end" key to give a top down view. It can be tilted again by using "home" key. I confirmed it works.


I didn't notice that you could do the top down strategic view...maybe I'll check that out. Thanks.

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 23
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 3:24:54 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline 		Awww hell. For 30 bucks I'll give it a whirl.

By the way. This is my first post using my new Droid 2. Now I can check the forums on my breaks and lunchtime at work.

_____________________________

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- Casey Stengel -

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Post #: 24
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 7:51:44 AM   
zyk0001

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline 		Personally I like the look of the game.

It is a work in progress, however. Though, I think it has come a long way since the Gamespot review. One thing that is nice is the in-game encyclopedia that substitutes partly for the almost nonexistant manual. I would not object to expanding the encyclopedia instead of working on a traditional manual.

And If they continue to work on it, I think it could end up being a very good game.

(in reply to New York Jets)
Post #: 25
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 1:09:51 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

As a not too satisfied owner of the original Making History, I still wanted to see what was new. I downloaded the demo from M.L. and played a bit.



I have to say I preferred the predecessor slightly. I bought this when it 1st came out and can only desribe it as Mocking History. Having conquered the world as Germany by 1937 on hardest level ( took so long because I started thinking that it really was about making history) I then restarted with Poland in 1933. I disbanded my airforce immediately but by mid 1935 I had conquered the Baltic States, Austria, Germany then most of Russia before I gave up. During that time I had built only inf and artillery.

My advice (given with some regret) is to avoid like the plague. It would be nice if a passable AI etc could mean the game is worth buying in a year or so but I'm not holding my breath. A shame as it is quite pretty and some of the ideas are quite good even if implementation is utterly hopeless.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 26
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 1:19:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		sillyflower,

If you haven't tried it since it came out and still have your copy, you may want to update it and give it another try, it has improved a great deal since then. With that said, most of these games can be exploited to a degree by good players. If you want less sandbox style and more guaranteed realism, you might take a look at Gary Grigsby's A World Divided, it's pretty hard to send that one completely off the historical course. Making History does have a lot of realistic elements, but it takes a tack more similar to Hearts of Iron in terms of the open gameplay.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 27
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 2:45:59 PM   
MuzzyDev


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

MuzzyDev;

It means a lot to every gamer that comes here for you to post here with us. Thank you very much for your post and information, and above all your honesty about the early version of the game and the manual.

I am one of the gamers that always got stuck in a loop with the economy. I own the original and the Gold edition, and it was always the same. Economy woes. Too much like real life to enjoy doing it too in a game. I will keep your advice in mind should I play the demo from Matrix.

One question... any hope for a future manual?

Thanks again for your post.


Hi Larry,

Thanks for your kind words. We've always wrestled with the choice of depth vs. fun when it comes to the economy. It was important for us to make the economic concerns a key part of the game (it is a game developed with Niall Ferguson, so economics must play a part), but we wanted to have players be able to set some things and not have to worry about it every turn. The problem is most of your focus on the economy is towards the beginning of the game, when you are also learning how to do everything else!

If you begin in the 1933 scenario, you will tend to have more of an economic hole to dig out of than one of the later scenarios, as was the case historically. Don't sweat being in debt fort a while, just try to minimize it. A common mistake is to build too much too fast, and end up so deep in debt your stability starts to fall. Different countries do this in different ways, but in general I find you can makes some real cash by "playing the market", buying resources low, then selling off when the price rises. If you build some arms you can often sell them for big money, especially once war has started somewhere. Always be updating a few cities, building a university or two, and upgrading one or two resource producers (coal and metals are the best early on).

AFA a manual and more documentation in general, it's always been a priority, but only now has the game settled to the point where it's worth investing time in it. We plan to enhance the in-game encyclopedia (as zyk001 suggested) and also update the manual itself.

Chris--

_____________________________

Chris Parsons
Product Manager
Muzzy Lane Software

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 28
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 3:01:05 PM   
MuzzyDev


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I have found a strange thing in diplomacy. I do not know if it is limited to the demo or the particular scenario. When playing as Italy starting in '39 Germany does not DoW Poland or anyone. After a month or two getting the economy somewhat on track I have Italy DoW and Invade France. Both before the DoW and after the invasion I have requested an alliance with Germany (several times). The response is alway that "we see no reason to get involved with your war with France"-or something very similar. This strikes me as quite odd. It seems some nations should be predisposed to join with others upon request.

In the Same Italy game I have found the military results of my endeavorer to be somewhat plausible-after a massive surprise attack Italy advances several provinces deep and then it is promptly wiped out by superior French forces. This makes more sense than what some other well known strategic games that are available allow to happen.




Hi Maestro,

We are currently tweaking the AI to have it be less suspicious of some countries over others, this may reduce the strange messages of this type. Our goal is to have nations behave "in character" so while Germany won't specifically invade Poland in 1939, it WILL be trying to expand, and, hey, Poland is right next door...

By the same token, some countries will tend to want to ally more, but only if they think it's in their interest. So while Germany may invade France, it will be wary about joining a country already at war (your Italy-France scenario). It may prefer to wait until you invade and then attack the now-weakened victor.


quote:


My demo just installed an update, but the opening screen shows two different versions-one on the bottom left and the other on the right.

One number is the game version, the other is the launcher version. This is connected to our soon to be released multiplayer service, which will let your game be saved in the cloud on our servers, so you and friends can go and take a turn whenever you want.
quote:



As Larry mentioned, it is always good to see a dev responding to comments about their game. Thanks for your honesty too.

:-)




_____________________________

Chris Parsons
Product Manager
Muzzy Lane Software

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 29
RE: First Impression - 11/23/2010 6:05:18 PM   
Kubel


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/4/2007
From: Canadian mosquito infested swamp
Status: offline 		Chris Thanks for the info; downloading the Demo Now, looking forward to giving it a whirl.

Cheers

_____________________________

Don
"Our profession should always be crowned by heroic death in battle" Generalfeldmarschall Fedor von Bock

(in reply to MuzzyDev)
Post #: 30
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