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VM Divisions - 11/20/2010 11:09:04 PM

Bearcat2

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I am fighting the Japanese in Hanoi, and have come up against VM divisions; if these are Viet Mingh, shouldn't they be on the allied side? My history is a little hazy, but the US supplied the Viet Mingh with supplies, incl ammo, weapons and artillery and it does seem odd that they are now fighting for the Jappanese instead of against them, as they historically did, starting with the takeover of the French colonies.
If this has been discussed before, my apologies , but I looked for it and could not find anything.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/20/2010 11:28:58 PM

vonTirpitz

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It's been brought up before Termite. Another thread it was discussed can be found here.

Good luck!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

I am fighting the Japanese in Hanoi, and have come up against VM divisions; if these are Viet Mingh, shouldn't they be on the allied side? My history is a little hazy, but the US supplied the Viet Mingh with supplies, incl ammo, weapons and artillery and it does seem odd that they are now fighting for the Jappanese instead of against them, as they historically did, starting with the takeover of the French colonies.
If this has been discussed before, my apologies , but I looked for it and could not find anything.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/20/2010 11:34:05 PM

Bearcat2

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Thanks,

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/21/2010 1:30:28 AM

Bradley7735

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I think the VM stands for Vietnamese Militia. The Japanese side gets 4 non-mobile, understrength divisions if the Chinese invade from the east. They don't show up if the British invade from the west. It's to reflect that the Vietnamese civilians did not want Chinese troops invading their country.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/21/2010 8:55:26 AM

Rainer79

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Also they only show up if the Chinese invade in 1942. From '43 on the IJA is on its own.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/22/2010 5:50:18 PM

Brady

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It was my understanding they were intended to inpart�represent the Vichy Forces that could otherwise not be modeled in the game.

So- one would think any allied unit should triger them.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/24/2010 1:11:40 AM

Bearcat2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

It was my understanding they were intended to inpart�represent the Vichy Forces that could otherwise not be modeled in the game.

So- one would think any allied unit should triger them.

I like this answer; Vichy Militia; they appeared when the British troops entered; I don't have any Chinese troops there.
Not sure exactly when they appeared, only know that I fought them in Hanoi in 43'

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 11/24/2010 1:12:17 AM >

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/24/2010 4:25:20 AM

Sheytan

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Didnt the IJ forces that occupied French Indochina disarm the French forces there? I frankly cannot see the IJ army giving the Vichy French arms after the fact to help fight the Chinese or anyone else. The irony of that statement of course is the Allies did precisely that at the end of the war to keep order in the various occupied Allied possessions in the Pacific where insufficent or no allied forces were availble to proform this law and order function.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

It was my understanding they were intended to inpart�represent the Vichy Forces that could otherwise not be modeled in the game.

So- one would think any allied unit should triger them.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/24/2010 5:45:09 PM

Brady

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Its my understanding that the Vichy Forces did not disarm, the Japanese just based troops their, the Vichy Controled the country as before initialy (untill the Vichy Goverment in France fell), I know as stated above post War, after the Japanese surender, that the French rearmed the Japanese and used them to fight the Rebels for a time.

The thinking is I beleave the Vichy forces would of faught any allied atempt at taking over their teratory just like they did all over the globe.

What's realy interesting about this is that in a MHQ article a while back it details how Ex Japanese Army Oficers trained the Vietmanise rebels to fight the French.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/25/2010 8:22:29 AM

Brady

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I made an inquery over at Axis histry to double check my memory and PeterH linked me this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=76655&p=689037

When the Japanese occuppied French-Indochina in July 1941,an act condoned by the Vichy government,France remained nominally in adminstrative control of the region.The French retained all rights on internal matters and Vichy units were permitted to retain their arms.Around 5,000 French Foreign Legionnaires(5 REI,the 'Tonkin Regiment') and 67,000 Colonial,native troops composed the garrison.

French Legionnaires were confined to static duties at their bases at Tuyen Quang,Dap Cau and Ventri.Desertions,expirees meant this force was down to 3,000 men by 1945.

< Message edited by Brady -- 11/25/2010 8:23:00 AM >

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/25/2010 10:24:25 AM

Kereguelen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Didnt the IJ forces that occupied French Indochina disarm the French forces there? I frankly cannot see the IJ army giving the Vichy French arms after the fact to help fight the Chinese or anyone else. The irony of that statement of course is the Allies did precisely that at the end of the war to keep order in the various occupied Allied possessions in the Pacific where insufficent or no allied forces were availble to proform this law and order function.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

It was my understanding they were intended to inpart�represent the Vichy Forces that could otherwise not be modeled in the game.

So- one would think any allied unit should triger them.

Vichy forces in Indochina were disarmed by the Japanese in early 1945.

(in reply to Sheytan)

Post #: 11

RE: VM Divisions - 11/25/2010 10:56:14 AM

Sheytan

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Interesting, wasnt aware of the nuances of this, and I sourced this. You are indeed correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Didnt the IJ forces that occupied French Indochina disarm the French forces there? I frankly cannot see the IJ army giving the Vichy French arms after the fact to help fight the Chinese or anyone else. The irony of that statement of course is the Allies did precisely that at the end of the war to keep order in the various occupied Allied possessions in the Pacific where insufficent or no allied forces were availble to proform this law and order function.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

It was my understanding they were intended to inpart�represent the Vichy Forces that could otherwise not be modeled in the game.

So- one would think any allied unit should triger them.

Vichy forces in Indochina were disarmed by the Japanese in early 1945.

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/25/2010 6:13:05 PM

Brady

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From the Link I provided above, Not all the french Surendered their arms in March 1945:

The authorities in French Indo-China refused to accede to the Japanese
requests; whereupon Japanese troops (some 30,000 strong) immediately began to
deal with the matter. Military measures were executed in order to secure
fulfillment of the requests. By March 11, operations were completed at
important points along the railroads in northern and southern Indo-China. By
the middle of the month, the majority of the French Army in the country
(numbering approximately 70,000 officers and men) were disarmed. Thus the
Japanese objective was practically attained. Later, the Japanese Army set a
bout suppressing a portion of the French forces who had fled into the mountain
fastnesses of northwestern and central Indo-China.

< Message edited by Brady -- 11/25/2010 6:14:11 PM >

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RE: VM Divisions - 11/26/2010 10:11:08 AM

Kereguelen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

From the Link I provided above, Not all the french Surendered their arms in March 1945:

The authorities in French Indo-China refused to accede to the Japanese
requests; whereupon Japanese troops (some 30,000 strong) immediately began to
deal with the matter. Military measures were executed in order to secure
fulfillment of the requests. By March 11, operations were completed at
important points along the railroads in northern and southern Indo-China. By
the middle of the month, the majority of the French Army in the country
(numbering approximately 70,000 officers and men) were disarmed. Thus the
Japanese objective was practically attained. Later, the Japanese Army set a
bout suppressing a portion of the French forces who had fled into the mountain
fastnesses of northwestern and central Indo-China.

Yes, several soldiers of the L�gion �trang�re escaped the Japanese. If I remember correctly, some of them made it to Kunming/China. There are several French accounts about this, quite an epic journey. However, the disarming of the French soldiers later had quite dire consequences after the Japanese surrender. The Vietnamese murdered many French civilians in Hanoi until the first British forces arrived and restored order (partly be rearming Japanese soldiers). Chinese (Nationalist) forces were also present in Northern Indochina after the Japanese surrender, but they were too busy with looting than to help the French (and certainly not interested in a restoration of French colonial rule in Indochina).

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 14