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single player/AI - 11/21/2010 7:54:43 PM   
hawkeye_de

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		I'm considering to buy this game for the upcoming holiday season.

How is the AI...I mean is it at least somehow dynamic...so if you replay a scenario does it change its tactic etc?

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: single player/AI - 11/21/2010 8:25:33 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		It's ok to learn the ropes against.
However it does have suicidal tendancies with unescorted invasion task forces.

I have also taken bases where at least 5 squadrons have become destroyed on the ground.

Plus the AI has only 4000AV in Mancukuo instead of 8000AV and yet the Soviets do not become active so i guess the AI cheats a bit.

(in reply to hawkeye_de)
Post #: 2
RE: single player/AI - 11/21/2010 8:46:17 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkeye_de

I'm considering to buy this game for the upcoming holiday season.

How is the AI...I mean is it at least somehow dynamic...so if you replay a scenario does it change its tactic etc?

Thanks.


The Ai is pretty interesting, its a VAST improvement then what WITP had, in your situation learning the game the AI is a great tool to get going, start out with a small scenario then upgrade to a full campaign. The AI has a set of scenario Goals, different areas mean different tasks. The AI will expand beyond historical game play, meaning just because you think you are secure, you really arn't.

Once you become an experienced player and start "beating" the AI, then Its time to throw some gloves on and test out the PBEM.



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Post #: 3
RE: single player/AI - 11/21/2010 8:49:19 PM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkeye_de

I'm considering to buy this game for the upcoming holiday season.

How is the AI...I mean is it at least somehow dynamic...so if you replay a scenario does it change its tactic etc?

Thanks.



The AI does a decent job, quite well, given the very complex task given to it and the limited resources available. It isn't perfect and occasionally makes a mistake, with many preferring head to head, but overall it functions quite well. There are around 14 AI scripts for each scenario, if I recall correctly, with one picked randomly at the start of the game. Meaning each time you start a new game, you are likely to be facing an AI that will behave differently, with a different set of objectives and timetable to achieve them.

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Post #: 4
RE: single player/AI - 11/21/2010 9:44:44 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Playing a whole campaign takes a lot of time (several months for sure, several years in most cases, I believe), and that the situation changes a lot over time (each side being overwhelming and overwhelmed at different stages of the campaign). As such, so long you don't go on replaying the first month over and over, the game would appear varied, even if the AI never changed its scripts.

Also, since the game is very complex, when you start playing, you mostly play against yourself, in the sense that you need a long time to use the system correctly. Quite a while will pass before you get "too used" to the AI.

In my opinion, people PBEM not just because the AI is not good, but because there is a thrill of playing against someone else. Same as in chess, in fact, where a real opponent is often preferred to a machine, which generally plays better...

Francois

(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 5
RE: single player/AI - 11/21/2010 10:00:05 PM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline 		I think the AI is good enough is fun. I like the historical aspects of game so it is more than fun to me.

PBEM is ok if you have endless patience. Some games only go a few turns to a dozen turns a week on average.

The different scenarios also beef up the AI like Iron Man which is a good one. The scenarios are so long that replay is not much of an issue. The players options are endless, invade from the North Central South SW Asia or all of them. As Japan the industry is tricky but still you have open options on how to play the game.

< Message edited by Scott_USN -- 11/21/2010 10:01:39 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 6:48:28 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		When playing the AI you have to control yourself and play within "reasonably historical" limits.

I'm playing a game now and have had some interesting (not all good) moves


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Post #: 7
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 9:57:37 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		The AI is a good learning tool and can be fun in the absence of a real opponent.  It has two failings you must keep in mind.  One, as someone mentioned, is that it plays best against fairly "standard historical" moves.  Get "wild and wooly" and it gets confused.  Secondly, the longer into the game you go, the more predictable and stupid it becomes.  It runs on "scripts", and no one could ever write enough "scripts" to deal with the situations which arise as a game this complex continues.

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Post #: 8
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 12:33:06 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Compared to the AI in WITP(stock), the AI in AE is 20 times better and seems to be intuitive in its' decisions..

In past I could take an island and never see another Japanese force till I met him further north, but this AI seems bent on retaking old turf in places, and will commence agressive campaign beyond the first six months of the war!

I play AI exclusively due to time constraints and feel a lot more comfortable feeling I will get a challenge with this game I never felt with WITP(stock) after 1943..

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Post #: 9
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 1:16:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Compared to the AI in WITP(stock), the AI in AE is 20 times better and seems to be intuitive in its' decisions..

In past I could take an island and never see another Japanese force till I met him further north, but this AI seems bent on retaking old turf in places, and will commence agressive campaign beyond the first six months of the war!

I play AI exclusively due to time constraints and feel a lot more comfortable feeling I will get a challenge with this game I never felt with WITP(stock) after 1943..


Against the AI and the new logistics models I've just had to abandon Darwin in Dec 1942 due to inability to get supplies in and keep a CAP up. I waited too long to pull out and lost 2 BBs in the retreat. I've had to truck-move all my planes back to Katherine, and the AI is STILL sending deep-strike Betties there to bomb them on the ground. Katherine has no supply either. (OK, it has 6.)

The AI may do some "dumb" things, but it does keep coming, and coming, and coming. I'm focusing on an historical Solomons campaign, and it's fighting like crazy for Tulagi and Tassafaronga. I'm haivng a devil of a time keeping any fuel at Espiritu Santo, enough to get my surface TFs up to the invasion sites to stop the Musashi raids down from Rabaul. The outcome is in some doubt.

The AI gets a lot more air power than historical, and it uses it. I will win this game. but it's no cakewalk so far.

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Post #: 10
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 3:18:50 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		If you are going to play against a Japanese AI I do suggest either scenario 2, or the 'Ironman' scenario since both of these give the Japanese side a lot more assets to work with, thus keeping the AI in the fight and challenging a bit longer.

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Post #: 11
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 3:23:14 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If you are going to play against a Japanese AI I do suggest either scenario 2, or the 'Ironman' scenario since both of these give the Japanese side a lot more assets to work with, thus keeping the AI in the fight and challenging a bit longer.


I'm playing Scen 2. It has so many planes it's ridiculous. I get 45 Betty/55 fighter raids and I can get up maybe 10 mixed model fighters. I hate 1942 . . .

OTOH, in two weeks I get the Great Torpedo Healing, and I will "Cry, 'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war."

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Post #: 12
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 3:25:11 PM   
beppi

 

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		And play it on very hard. It might be challenging as the AI gets benefits but it is worth it to learn the game. Especially that the AI gets always a preparation of 100 is worth it. So no easy capturing of some islands and no easy defense against the AI.

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Post #: 13
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 3:44:48 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beppi

And play it on very hard. It might be challenging as the AI gets benefits but it is worth it to learn the game. Especially that the AI gets always a preparation of 100 is worth it. So no easy capturing of some islands and no easy defense against the AI.


My impression, from WITP days, is that in Very Hard the AI essentially does not use or need supplies. The only way to take its bases is overwhelming force. More subtle tactics to sever supply lines aren't there. I find this boring and unweildy as it negates the Allies' increasing superiority in strategic mobility as well as pretty much the whole submarine campaign. If I want toe-toe fighting every day I'll play an Eastern Front game.

No question though that Very Hard slows down the Allied come back.

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Post #: 14
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 4:48:07 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I am in mid-November '42 as the Allies against the Japanese AI.

The AI is a wonderful training tool for future PBEM, and it is a lot of fun in its own right. As others have stated, it is an order of magnitude more sophisticated than the original WITP AI.

The only issues I have seen with the AI is that the digital Japanese commander doesn't know when to call it quits. I have followed a fairly standard Allied strategy, and the Japanese AI has focused laser-like on Canton Is and especially Port Blair (which I strongly reinforced before knowing the AI would be interested in it).

Over the last few game-months, I'd estimate the Japanese have lost three+ divisions with all transports on the beaches of Port Blair -- it would really be a grand artifical reef for decades to come!

Other than that, the AI has done a good job of offering a challenge and attacking/defending in a reasonable sort of way.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 15
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 4:53:19 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Don't forget you can alter AI difficulty toVery Hard for a few turns to help the AI out then drop it back again a good way of giving a modest boost wihtout playing all the time at that level

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Post #: 16
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 5:36:22 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I am in mid-November '42 as the Allies against the Japanese AI.

The AI is a wonderful training tool for future PBEM, and it is a lot of fun in its own right. As others have stated, it is an order of magnitude more sophisticated than the original WITP AI.

The only issues I have seen with the AI is that the digital Japanese commander doesn't know when to call it quits. I have followed a fairly standard Allied strategy, and the Japanese AI has focused laser-like on Canton Is and especially Port Blair (which I strongly reinforced before knowing the AI would be interested in it).

Over the last few game-months, I'd estimate the Japanese have lost three+ divisions with all transports on the beaches of Port Blair -- it would really be a grand artifical reef for decades to come!

Other than that, the AI has done a good job of offering a challenge and attacking/defending in a reasonable sort of way.

Regards,
Feltan


In my first game I got these scripts re Baker and Canton, plus Midway Island raids. In this game, I have not. OTOH, I've gotten action around Oz I didn't see in the first run through, as well as very, very aggressive IJN carrier usage around the Solomons.

Port Blair has been in contention both times. The AI REALLY wants it, and I can see why, given its location and huge airfield. In both games I garrissoned it well from the get-go, but it's costly to get supplies in, as TFs have to take an extra day to negotiate the reefs, and the LBA from Burma and Thailand is murderous. I've used the RN carriers when I really had to get supplies in, but Hermes is in drydock for 155 days right now as a result. The IJA has two full divisions and a Guard Force ashore, and I have one British Division and about seven support units behind Forts 5, headed for 6, and 8000 supply. If it falls it will be a big hit to the region. OTOH, 8000 supply isn't going to get the job done, and I've lost a lot of xAKs keeping the lights on.

I know a lot of PBEM players sneer at the AI, but it gives a good game which forces hard choices.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/22/2010 5:37:56 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 5:37:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Don't forget you can alter AI difficulty toVery Hard for a few turns to help the AI out then drop it back again a good way of giving a modest boost wihtout playing all the time at that level


Good tip. Thanks, Andy.

You can also, if you don't mind giving up FOW for a time, switch sides and play the Japanese for a month or so.

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Post #: 18
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 6:01:14 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Don't forget you can alter AI difficulty toVery Hard for a few turns to help the AI out then drop it back again a good way of giving a modest boost wihtout playing all the time at that level

WOW! Wonderful tip!

With regard to assisting the AI, do you have any others?

For instance, take over the AI side--via hot-seat solitaire (else switch sides)--at crucial moments for a few days or weeks (or even longer), then revert to human vs. AI as before.

(That would dispel the Fog of War, however and obviously, thus might spoil the overall fun. Unless one were careful to focus just on fixing the critical "broken" areas of AI operation and ignore, leave on autopilot, other less vital theaters during the temporary switchover.)

EDIT: Oops, while I was composing the above, Bullwinkle58 beat me to it!

< Message edited by berto -- 11/22/2010 6:04:43 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 6:08:01 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		The main one would be play Ironman or Scen 2 apart from that.

The AI WILL make more mistakes than a human player Ironman is designed to give it the redundancy to take those losses and keep on slugging.

The only other tip is to have a friend peek and run a couple of turns as Japan every now and then.

(I will do it as well if folks need it)

i.e. every 6 - 18 months or so let someone have 2 - 3 days with your game in that time they can do things like alter upgrade paths via PDU on to more relevant types and rescur the odd stuck LCU or sqn of aircraft.

An occasional health check infrequently can make a big difference to the AI and only takes 20 minutes to do - as I said I am happy to do that for folks as I learn about the AI when doing it as well.

I am also working an an Ironman only new script to put into the rotation that will be ultra aggressive I mean seriously nasty but it will be Ironman only - it will take me about 2 - 3 more weeks to finalise and test.
Andy

(in reply to berto)
Post #: 20
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 7:00:49 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Honestly, I'm not above helping the AI either by setting the game to head to head for a turn or two and upgrading its airgroups to something better. Just makes the game a bit more challenging. Is that gamey? Cheating for the AI?

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Post #: 21
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 8:59:09 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I am in mid-November '42 as the Allies against the Japanese AI.

The AI is a wonderful training tool for future PBEM, and it is a lot of fun in its own right. As others have stated, it is an order of magnitude more sophisticated than the original WITP AI.

The only issues I have seen with the AI is that the digital Japanese commander doesn't know when to call it quits. I have followed a fairly standard Allied strategy, and the Japanese AI has focused laser-like on Canton Is and especially Port Blair (which I strongly reinforced before knowing the AI would be interested in it).

Over the last few game-months, I'd estimate the Japanese have lost three+ divisions with all transports on the beaches of Port Blair -- it would really be a grand artifical reef for decades to come!

Other than that, the AI has done a good job of offering a challenge and attacking/defending in a reasonable sort of way.

Regards,
Feltan


In my first game I got these scripts re Baker and Canton, plus Midway Island raids. In this game, I have not. OTOH, I've gotten action around Oz I didn't see in the first run through, as well as very, very aggressive IJN carrier usage around the Solomons.

Port Blair has been in contention both times. The AI REALLY wants it, and I can see why, given its location and huge airfield. In both games I garrissoned it well from the get-go, but it's costly to get supplies in, as TFs have to take an extra day to negotiate the reefs, and the LBA from Burma and Thailand is murderous. I've used the RN carriers when I really had to get supplies in, but Hermes is in drydock for 155 days right now as a result. The IJA has two full divisions and a Guard Force ashore, and I have one British Division and about seven support units behind Forts 5, headed for 6, and 8000 supply. If it falls it will be a big hit to the region. OTOH, 8000 supply isn't going to get the job done, and I've lost a lot of xAKs keeping the lights on.

I know a lot of PBEM players sneer at the AI, but it gives a good game which forces hard choices.


Mr. Moose,

I pulled everything I could out of Singapore (II Indian Corps, ground combat units and attachments) and sent it there, and stockpiled around a 100K supply. Right now it is as close to invulnerable as any place on the map.

One technique I have had some success with is using AKL's in single ship task force -- forming a bucket brigade from both Columbo and Calcutta -- dispatching a single ship from each port every turn or other turn. I've lost maybe a dozen or two over the last game year, mostly to surface action. For some reason the AI isn't keen on sending bomber formations against a lone AKL.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 22
RE: single player/AI - 11/22/2010 9:16:14 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

One technique I have had some success with is using AKL's in single ship task force -- forming a bucket brigade from both Columbo and Calcutta -- dispatching a single ship from each port every turn or other turn. I've lost maybe a dozen or two over the last game year, mostly to surface action. For some reason the AI isn't keen on sending bomber formations against a lone AKL.

Regards,
Feltan


I've tried this only from Colombo, usually with xAKs, and have gotten a few through. Not once a week though. I moved too many of my small merchants to Perth at the start, hoping to use them for coastwise resupply of Oz, but the new logistics model since I played the first time has made keeping a CAP up over northern Oz impossible for me. I've taken to hitchhiking the xAKLs into CT convoys with high-endurance ships to provide underway fueling, and hauling mostly fuel with them.

A number of the merchants I did leave at Colombo have fallen to subs, many east of Tricomalee. In late Dec 1942 I've only managed to sink four IJN non-mini subs, although I have done penetrating damage several dozen times. Columbo is down to only a handful of merchants, and I need to send some from CT and do the best I can on fuel. Fuel needs are eating me alive, as any Allied player is well aware will happen in 1942.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/22/2010 9:17:25 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 4:59:56 AM   
Thayne

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		As the author of that AAR called "Thayne Reports", I can say that I am finding the AI to be quite entertaining so far.

And it has some advantages over a PBEM opponent - such as the freedom to adopt personal home rules that . . . well, that make for a better story, I think.

Still, I like the idea of having somebody in the wings to look over the AI's shoulder from time to time. I may take advantage of that option. I keep worrying that the AI is going to goof up in ways that will ruin the story.

Thayne

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Post #: 24
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 10:58:28 AM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

A number of the merchants I did leave at Colombo have fallen to subs, many east of Tricomalee. In late Dec 1942 I've only managed to sink four IJN non-mini subs, although I have done penetrating damage several dozen times.


I had a lot of trouble with anti-submarine-warfare, till i started to build "kill groups". 4 ships with ASW weapons (even if only 1 or 2, but choose ships with enough ammo) and put a commander with high (above 60) naval rating in each of the ships. Set reacting range high (depend a bit on ship and patrol area)and have planes on ASW-patrol to "find" the subs. Suddenly even my poor AMs in australia started to sink/seriously damage some subs. :)

You can't build too many of these "kill groups", because you don't have enough commanders and will need them also to protect your carriers (more important). I only run 4 of these groups in mid. '42, but i think they have sunk 4-6 subs already. With FoW on you can't be sure, but i guess "forced to surface" and shooting till sunk as "explosion below the water with large oil slicks" can be verified as kills (at least i hope so). :)

And yes, it was a bit off-topic :)

On-topic:

I really like the AI, not perfect but very good :)

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 25
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 11:39:10 AM   
steamboateng


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/21/2010
From: somewhere in Massachusetts
Status: offline 		That's the way I've learned to do it, playing Guadalcanal Scenario. I found these ASW 'hunter-killer' TF's to be very effective. SC's and AM's fill this role well close to ports; Jap subs either miss (shallow draft?) or won't waste a torp on smaller vessels. I use minimum 2 ship TF's with a reaction range of 1. If one ship gets hit, the other(s) will seek out the offending scalliwag! 3 ship TF's are sooo much better; 'tis a wonderfull sight to watch an ASW 'gang bang' on a lurking shark. Your right, a TF commander w/ good stats help a lot. Over time, the crews get to be well trained and quite adept at their mission.
Regards

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Post #: 26
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 1:19:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thayne

And it has some advantages over a PBEM opponent - such as the freedom to adopt personal home rules that . . . well, that make for a better story, I think.



While the AI will never match a human for original thought, it has an advantage not often commented upon which makes it difficult to play against.

It never gets tired.

It is programmed, but within that programming it never makes a mistake. It never forgets to adjust CAP ratios. It never forgets--for two weeks--to send a resupply convoy while the troops decline in strength. It never forgets to do upgrades. Or to set a better sub patrol area. It doesn't get tired, bored, lazy, or distracted by the game on TV. It makes the human opponent pay for mistakes when all of these things happen to him.

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Post #: 27
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 7:55:41 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Having played only vs. the AI (so far) I agree its a very good learning tool. Unfortunantly it has its limits. I´m now in early 43 and I´m inclined to give up. I´m playing against the Jap AI which did very well in the opening stages. But in late 42 the japs lost all its CVs. It lost all of them in pairs in range of LBA. My feel is that the AI cannot properly project power. All its CVs were lost in useless raiding againt Nomea and Suva. It also have problems with moving its airgroups where its needed and wasting Betty pilots on useless targets. (Bombing a lone baseforce that is covered by heavy LRCAP again and again). I did learn ALOT though, but for me atleast I have reach a point where I feel its lacking...

I´m thinking of beginning a new game as the Japs vs the Allied AI instead. How is it? Will it do something or will it just sit and do nothing until 46? Or is it time to move on to PBEM?

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 28
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 10:39:49 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I´m thinking of beginning a new game as the Japs vs the Allied AI instead. How is it? Will it do something or will it just sit and do nothing until 46? Or is it time to move on to PBEM?



It will prove even less satisfying, unfortunately. "Scripting" works best for the side with the initative. You yourself found that the AI played well in the early going in your game..., but then came "unglued" as the situation equalized. As the Allies, it begins on the defensive, in "reaction" mode..., which is already it's weak suit. Not good, unless you really enjoy kicking an opponent who's already down.

The opening 6-7 months as the Japanese is what the AI does best. Otherwise it kind of devolves into "Animated Idiocy"..., where it keeps trying to "do something", but does it quite poorly. Andy's scripts can do a lot..., but once the game really gets going, there are just too many possibilities for anyone to script for.

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Post #: 29
RE: single player/AI - 11/23/2010 11:48:10 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I just wonder how we know that ? I have seen no Jap v Allied AI games AAR's or saves so I cannot actually say how good it is because I havent seen any games

I think a few players tried the Allied Ironman mod but no feedback as yet

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 30
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