RE: German and Soviet TOE

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: German and Soviet TOE

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: German and Soviet TOE

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/3/2010 7:26:29 PM

Panama

Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Why not to set it to not reconstitute..?�

If they get destroyed before they are replaced by the newer type you don't get them back and any equipment left is gone. I thought the idea was to try and recover any equipment they still had when it was time to withdraw them? Otherwise, yeah, why bother to reconstitute them.

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/3/2010 7:32:09 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Telumar)

Post #: 301

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/3/2010 7:44:24 PM

BigDuke66

Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to Panama)

Post #: 302

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/3/2010 8:01:36 PM

samba_liten

Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline

Flak.
The search continues. Ive been looking at ww2day by day, and have found the following AA units for June 22nd. It is probable that some were re-assigned before the scenario starts, but this is a start i guess. This is just copy and paste from the site mentioned. Any corps/Armies omitted did not have any AA units mentioned.

A.G South
Fla-Kp.2./46 (Heer)

11th Army:
Fla-Btl.22, Fla-Kp.1./47(Heer)
Flak-Rgts.Stb.18, Flak-Abt.(gem.) I./14, I./43, I./64 (LW)

17th Army:
Fla-Kp.2/66, H.Flak-Abt.275(gem) ,277 (8,8cm)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.42, Flak-Abt.I./37, II./24, I.?/61(LW)

XXXXIX.Geb. Corps
Fla-Kp.6./48 (Heer)

IV. Corps
Fla-Kp.1./48 (Heer)

6th Army
Fla-Kp.5./52, H.Flak-Abt.278 (8,8) (Heer)
Flak.Rgt.Stb.91, gem.Flak-Abt. I./8, I./9, II./241 (LW)

Pz. Gruppe 1
Fla-Kp.4./31, 5./59 (Heer)
lei.Flak.Abt.86 (9.Pz.)(LW???)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.6 Gen.G., lei.Flak-Abt.IV./Gen.G. 93, gem.Flak-Abt. I./Gen.G., II./43, I./7, II./26 (Flakkorps II)

XXXXVIII. (mot)
Fla-Kp.5./46 (Heer)
Flak-Abt.71 (11.Pz.)(LW???)

XXIX.
Fla-Kp.2./48(Heer)

III.(mot)
Fla-Btl.603

XVII.
Fla-Kp.4./47 (Heer)

4th Army
H.Flak-Abt.274 (8,8), 276 (8,8)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.153, gem.Flak-Abt. II./14, I./24, I./26, I./231, I./704 (LW)

A.G. Mitte

Panzergruppe 2
Fla-Btl.602, le.Flak-Abt.94 (Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.101, 104, lei.Flak.Abt.77, 91, gem.Flak-Abt.I./12, I./22, I./11, II./11, (Flakkorps I)

XII.
Fla-Btl.610, Fla-Kp.3./31, (Heer)

XXXXIII.
Fla-Kp.4./48(Heer)

IX.
Fla-Kp.6./55(Heer)

9th Army
H.Flak-Abt.271 (8,8), 273 (gem.), (Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.125, gem.Flak-Abt.I./Lehr, II./4, I./52, I./401, I./701(LW)

VII.
Fla-Kp.6./46(Heer)

VIII.
Fla-Kp.5./48, 3./66(HEer)

Panzergruppe 3
Flak-Rgt.Stb.148, 1 Bttr. von I./36(LW)

LVII(mot.)
lei.Flak.Abt.75 (12.Pz.), 85 (18.Pz.), gem.Flak-Abt.I./29(LW)

XXXIX.(mot)
lei.Flak-Abt.74 (20.Pz.), 84 (7.Pz.), gem.Flak-Abt.I./36 (ohne 1 Bttr.)(LW)

VI.
Fla-Kp.1./46, 6./47 (Heer)

A.G. Nord

16th Army
Fla-Kp. 4./55, 4./59; Heeres-Flak-Abt. 280 (gem.)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb.151; Flak-Abt. gem. I./13, I./291; I./411(LW)

Panzergruppe 4
Flak-Rgt.Stb.133(LW)

LVI.(mot)
lei.Flak-Abt.92 (8.Pz.); Flak.Abt.gem. II./23(LW)

XXXXI.(mot)
Fla-Btl.601(Heer)
lei.Flak-Abt. 83 (1.Pz.), II./411 (6.Pz.); Flak-Abt.gem.I./3(LW)

18th Army
Fla-Btl. 604 (1 Kp.); Fla-Kp. 1./55, H.Flak-Abt.272 (gem)(Heer)
Flak-Rgt.Stb. 164; gem.Flak-Abt. II./36, I./51; I./111(LW)

I.
Fla-Btl. 604 (ohne 1 Kp.)(Heer)

XXVI.
Fla-Kp. 6./52(Heer)

_____________________________

السلام عليكم

(in reply to Panama)

Post #: 303

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/3/2010 9:24:58 PM

Panama

Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

But the unit itself is gone. No longer available until it's replacement comes onboard. If that's not a problem, fine.

Look, if it doesn't matter that the unit is perma-killed until the new version comes in, no problem, don't reconstitute it.

If the unit being perma-killed is a bad thing you have to reconstitute it.

If you have to reconstitute it, then disband it to recover equipment and don't want it coming back you'll have to subsequently also give it a withdrawal event.

These are simply suggestions.

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/3/2010 9:30:22 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 304

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/3/2010 9:47:12 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Why is it gone? Any equipment that survives if the unit gets destroyed goes to the pool and will fill up the other units.

But the unit itself is gone. No longer available until it's replacement comes onboard. If that's not a problem, fine.

Look, if it doesn't matter that the unit is perma-killed until the new version comes in, no problem, don't reconstitute it.

If the unit being perma-killed is a bad thing you have to reconstitute it.

If you have to reconstitute it, then disband it to recover equipment and don't want it coming back you'll have to subsequently also give it a withdrawal event.

These are simply suggestions.

I think the simple solution is to impute "old" equipment in the new unit.

The panzer mark II units have 20 pzIIIh's -- a generous estimate of how many 1941 runners could have been repaired or otherwise scratched up and reinserted into the units.

In other words, we don't need the equipment in the old units to be put back into the pool because they are written into the new TO&E -- putting them back into the pool would double-count them

< Message edited by briantopp -- 12/4/2010 1:10:17 AM >

(in reply to Panama)

Post #: 305

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 5:06:21 AM

BigDuke66

Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp

I think the simple solution is to impute "old" equipment in the new unit.

The panzer mark II units have 20 pzIIIh's -- a generous estimate of how many 1941 runners could have been repaired or otherwise scratched up and reinserted into the units.

In other words, we don't need the equipment in the old units to be put back into the pool because they are written into the new TO&E -- putting them back into the pool would double-count them

That's why I recommended to put the new units into the game empty. I know the game could run into trouble when the German player doesn't watch for is tank units and the Russian players goes out and hunts them down but usually the German side should just loose some Abteilungen what makes the rest stronger so no real trouble here.

Locking at the old and new units it looks to me like the new ones should be tweaked a bit in the direction of the Spring 1943 time.
Just look at these numbers:

Now look at the scenario and see that:
Ingame Tank = Real tank
Pz IIIH = Panzer III(5cm L/42)
Pz IIIJ & Pz IIIL = Panzer III(5cm L/60)
Pz IVD, Pz IVE & Pz IVF1 = Panzer IV(7,5cm L/24)
Pz IVF2 = Panzer IV(7,5cm L/43)

Letting aside the more unusual tank types the old units have:
6 Pz I
22 Pz IIF
36 Pz IIIH
20 Pz IIIJ
10 Pz IVE
5 Pz IVF1
5 Pz IVF2

And the new:
6 Pz I
22 Pz IIF
20(-16) Pz IIIH
40(+20) Pz IIIJ
10(New) Pz IIIL
10 Pz IVE
5 Pz IVF1
5 Pz IVF2

What I miss is the shift in Panzer IV from the short to the long version, see were it ends in July 1943 and the average is already in November 1942 higher than what the scenario allows.
Also the latest Panzer IIIN should be in to take the place of the short Panzer IV as they should be lowered too as the average is already down to 10 per division by summer 1942 and half's again till November 1942.
And maybe the Pz IIIJ & Pz IIIL should also be closer.

Not sure how good the production numbers are but even they suggest some changes:
Production for the scenario:
Pz 38(t)=216
Pz 35(t)=54
Pz I=162
Pz IIF=2436
Pz II(Flame)=0
Pz IIIH=810
Pz IIIJ=1331
Pz IIIL=1040
Pz III(Flame)=0
Pz IVD=0
Pz IVE=847
Pz IVF1=216
Pz IVF2=1210

Alone the Production of the Pz IVF2 is so high that it can fill a complete PzD every turn because there are only 5 allowed, at least by November 1942 it looks wrong not to speak how it would look in early 1943.
And what about the Pz IV getting now replacement until April 1942, won't they dry out?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 12/4/2010 10:03:46 AM >

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 306

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 3:50:30 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

So, staying roughly in the paradigm we're in (because this has to land, sometime), the current "wave II" pz battalion looks like this:

pz I 6
pzII 22
pzIIIh 20 [no production i.e. will decline]
pzIIIj 20/40 [production begins]
pzIIIL 0/10 (production begins later]
pzIVe 10 [no production will decline]
pzIVf1 0/5 [production begins]
pzIVf2 0/5 [production begins later]

So looking at those production numbers, it seems the coase fault is that the IVf2 are under-represented in the back third of the game. That is a good problem to fix because the Axis can use all the help they can get by them they are getting steamrollered in the current build. So how about this:

pzI 6
pzII 22
pzIIIh 20
pzIIIj 20/40 [production starts April 42 and ends October 42]
pzIIIL /0/10
pzIVe 10
pzIVf1 0/5 [production starts april 42 and ends november 42]
pzIVf2 0/30 [production start november 42]

This would then give us three basic transitions in terms of the "core runner": from IIIh to IIIj in april 42 in a planned re-equipment during a mud ceasefire, and from IIIj to IVf2 feathering in starting in November 42. There is a risk that we would have historically over-equipped units (a "full" unit would have 40 IIIjs and 30 IVf2s by January 43 or so). But this could only happen if the Germans are taking no casualties since there is no new IIIj supply -- that is most unlikely to happen. You could make it happen by keeping the unit in reserve and letting it build up. I say a German player who can do this in the winter of 1943 (which implies a remarkably well-preserved infantry) in this scenario deserves to get such a unit.

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 307

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 8:23:28 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Here is today's build of this thing. I have:

- hunted down more blank news events (boy, there were a lot of them)
- experimented with the IIIh-IIIj-IVf2 panzer equipment transition above to see how it playtests
- assigned more flak units at army and corps level and given them some 88s
- tinkered with the southern stretch of the "Axis stop line"
- updated scenario briefing

Update:

Never mind: dozens and dozens of newly broken events. Merde. God, to think of the time I've spent labouriously fixing and refixing and rerefixing events because they don't remain the same when other events or OOB is edited. Brutal. I can't imagine what is being achieved by having the events "slide" like this. I give up (for today).

< Message edited by briantopp -- 12/4/2010 9:57:52 PM >

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 308

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 9:34:16 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

quote:

hunted down more blank news events

Apparently, if it doesn't say 'no news' in the editor, then there is news, but its blank/empty news. Quite a pickle.

A little nit-pickery - 246-infantrie of 39th corps arrives on turn 88, but a couple sources report that it arrived 2-42, around turn 40?

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 309

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 10:04:14 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

hunted down more blank news events

Apparently, if it doesn't say 'no news' in the editor, then there is news, but its blank/empty news. Quite a pickle.

A little nit-pickery - 246-infantrie of 39th corps arrives on turn 88, but a couple sources report that it arrived 2-42, around turn 40?

Righto got it

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 310

RE: German and Soviet TOE - 12/4/2010 10:15:30 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

quote:

...events "slide" like this.

Its something I've griped about in the past, if you click in part of the empty area of the event box, it automatically duplicates that event and moves all the rest down the line. It makes editing very nerve racking, trying to make sure you only click the mouse in certain areas.

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 311

Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/12/10 - 12/7/2010 2:19:46 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Once more with feeling: the current build of this scenario.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by briantopp -- 12/7/2010 2:20:27 AM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 312

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 6:41:09 AM

BigDuke66

Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline

Thanks for mentioning me in your readme, was & is a pleasure to help.

An that's why we right away start with some minor stuff:
-II/27-panzer,19-panzer AGC has already 5 PzKpfw IVF2 and 5 PzKpfw IVF1 at the start of the scenario.
-III/6-panzer,3-panzer 24pzC has already 3 PzKpfw IVF2 at the start of the scenario.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 313

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 7:49:39 AM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

Another minor thing - I'm still playing 1.59, so don't know if this has been fixed, but the late versions of the 8th Pz Div's tank battalions arrive if the TO to activate the 8th hasn't been picked. I think the arrival event can be disabled on turn 1, and then enabled if the TO is picked, I think.

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 314

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 10:42:05 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Thanks for mentioning me in your readme, was & is a pleasure to help.

An that's why we right away start with some minor stuff:
-II/27-panzer,19-panzer AGC has already 5 PzKpfw IVF2 and 5 PzKpfw IVF1 at the start of the scenario.
-III/6-panzer,3-panzer 24pzC has already 3 PzKpfw IVF2 at the start of the scenario.

Excellent catches thank you -- got 'em. Would you like your real name in there btw? Happy to include it is so (just let me know what it is) and I offer the same to any other contributors (you know who you are).

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 315

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 10:57:54 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Another minor thing - I'm still playing 1.59, so don't know if this has been fixed, but the late versions of the 8th Pz Div's tank battalions arrive if the TO to activate the 8th hasn't been picked. I think the arrival event can be disabled on turn 1, and then enabled if the TO is picked, I think.

Hmm: a tricky problem.

Thinking aloud:

The mark II battalions are part of the division OOB, with a delayed arrival. That is happening through a hardwired arrival time in the deployment editor, not the event editor. I don't think the event editor can reach into the deployment editor and disable an arrival.

So:

(1) One option might be to set up a conditional withdrawal order. But the "condition" is an event that does NOT happen -- the theatre event deploying the division is not triggered, so the mark II battalions should not arrive. Nothing in the event editor allows this.

(2) The next possibility would be to make the arrival of the mark II battalions conditional on the prior triggering of the theatre event (so: arrive say 30 turns after the division is deployed). But that is not optimal either, because it would permit the arrival of the mark II units too early or too late.

(3) So the third possibility would be to revisit the TO&Es of the panzer units and to have all the equipment transitions occur within the same unit. That would require something like this:

pz I 6/6
pz II 22/22

pzIIIh 35/35 (stops March 42)
pzIIIj 0/40 (starts April 42, stops october 42)
pzIIIl 0/10 (starts november 42)

pzIVe 10/10
pzIVf1 0/5 (starts April 42, ends october 42)
pzIVf2 0/30 (starts november 42)

158 tanks in one battalion, if the unit is hoarded in the rear or otherwise underused. Maybe that's ok in one division -- if the German can keep the unit out of battle and is deliberately hoarding it perhaps he has simply made a conscious decision to build a super-stuffed monster unit for some purpose.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 316

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 11:27:57 AM

Telumar

Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline

Wow - i'm in the credits.. what for?

_____________________________

http://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 317

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 5:02:01 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Wow - i'm in the credits.. what for?

just grateful for the comments here. i can take you out if you'd like.

(in reply to Telumar)

Post #: 318

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 6:16:19 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

quote:

a tricky problem.

I set up these events and ran them in a test scenario. To speed things up I originally used turn 4 instead of turn 54. The red circled event 24 needs to be changed to whatever event the TO for the 8th triggers. In the test, if the TO was chosen before turn 4, the Mark II's didn't arrive until turn 4. When the TO was chosen on turn 6, the Mark II's arrived on turn 7. So it seems that if it were set up as shown for turn 54, with the Mark II's set to arrive by event 49, then it should work to get the desired effect.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 319

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 7:10:01 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

Same here! Thanks from the whole crew of STALAG 13!

Oh, I miss the days I used to create Age of Rifles scenarios and my one and only TOAW one, can't find it anymore. Anybody, by any chance, got State Farm 79? Done that one in 1998, using SSG's scenartio from Panzer Battles as "reference"...

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 320

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 10:52:40 PM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

a tricky problem.

I set up these events and ran them in a test scenario. To speed things up I originally used turn 4 instead of turn 54. The red circled event 24 needs to be changed to whatever event the TO for the 8th triggers. In the test, if the TO was chosen before turn 4, the Mark II's didn't arrive until turn 4. When the TO was chosen on turn 6, the Mark II's arrived on turn 7. So it seems that if it were set up as shown for turn 54, with the Mark II's set to arrive by event 49, then it should work to get the desired effect.

Very interesting! Ok I'll give it a try.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 321

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/7/2010 11:11:50 PM

BigDuke66

Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline

Some more corrections:
-39th Korps
I'll try to track in down but it seems to have moved sometimes south to Cholm(area of 16. Armee/HG Nord but on map) but was never under command of the 2. PG.

Same counts for the divisions in it:
-81. came to 10K/16A on 9. January 1942
-205. came to 59K/3PG in March 1942
-328. came to 9. Armee in April 1942 and was dispersed
-83. from 17th December on it was OKH Reserve in Malkina, command moved than to "Befh. d. r�ckw. Heeresgebietes Mitte"(Rear area commander of HG Mitte) and finally to 59K/3PG on 20th January 1942
-246. cam to 9. Armee in February 1942

Not sure what to make out of the 4 regiments there as I couldn't find any details about them.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 12/9/2010 5:32:19 PM >

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)

Post #: 322

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/8/2010 6:08:45 AM

BigDuke66

Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline

Some ideas I had today:

-Panzer reinforcement units(similar to the 1942 units) for October, November and December 1941 as the tank replacement that got to the front was very low and not nearly the production level.

-Production of the Pz IVF2 should start much sooner, we have 87 in the game what maybe covers production of March & April 42 but in May the production should start.

-A collection thread collecting player experience would be good to see what approaches the players took and what maybe needs a bit more tweaking, in a form of a mini AAR maybe, I think this could be useful in such a long scenario.

-Regarding the overall reinforcements I think the further we get away from the starting point and especially starting with March/April 1942(were historically the decision was made where the next offensive should take place) the placement of the new units should take the Korps supporting assets into account, there is not much sense filling a Korps up with IDs and it doesn't even have one artillery unit to support the divisions, so the more supporting assets the Korps has the more IDs or other division it should get. Also the Armeen should get some divisions for deployments, only 9. & 2. Armee have each 1 ID to deploy at the start so giving each Armee 2 divisions at least should do the job.

-The 1942 replacement units should be spread out over the year, volume 6 of "Germany and the Second World War" gives a nice overview that shows that staring with February the replacements of Personnel for the army in the east was over 100k and stayed there till July 42(124,1k, 137,7k, 121,4k, 158,9k, 156,7k & 177,8k composed of replacement and recovered soldiers), I think that shows very good the acceleration to fill up the losses and later to prepare fotr the next offensive so a similar spread in the scenario makes much more sense than throwing everything into the pool on a single turn.

_____________________________

JOIN The Blitz Wargaming Club
JOIN Napoleonic Wargame Club
JOIN American Civil War Game Club

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 323

RE: Current build of "Battle for Moscow" 06/1... - 12/8/2010 7:08:54 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Some ideas I had today:

-Panzer reinforcement units(similar to the 1942 units) for October, November and December 1941 as the tank replacement that got to the front was very low and not nearly the production level.

-Production of the Pz IVF2 should start much sooner, we have 87 in the game what maybe covers production of March & April 42 but in May the production should start.

-A collection thread collecting player experience would be good to see what approaches the players took and what maybe needs a bit more tweaking, in a form of a mini AAR maybe, I think this could be useful in such a long scenario.

-Regarding the overall reinforcements I think the further we get away from the starting point and especially starting with March/April 1942(were historically the decision was made where the next offensive should take place) the placement of the new units should take the Korps supporting assets into account, there is not much sense filling a Korps up with IDs and it doesn't even have one artillery unit to support the divisions, so the more supporting assets the Korps has the more IDs or other division it should get. Also the Armeen should get some divisions for deployments, only 9. & 2. Armee have each 1 ID to deploy at the start so giving each Armee 2 divisions at least should do the job.

-The 1942 replacement units should be spread out over the year, volume 6 of "Germany and the Second World War" gives a nice overview that shows that staring with February the replacements of Personnel for the army in the east was over 100k and stayed there till July 42(124,1k, 137,7k, 121,4k, 158,9k, 156,7k & 177,8k composed of replacement and recovered soldiers), I think that shows very good the acceleration to fill up the losses and later to prepare fotr the next offensive so a similar spread in the scenario makes much more sense than throwing everything into the pool on a single turn.

- you'd do 1941 reinforcement units in lieu of 1% replacements in the replacement editor, just to be clear?
- may 1942 pzIVf2: so when does the pzivf1 start and stop?
- aar thread - good idea I was thinking of posting the "final" build (or at least, the reasonably-serviceable-willing-to-claim-its-a-finished-draft build) in a new thread and invite running comments.
- i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement (pzg2, notably). Could adopt a different policy just as easily
- i like the idea of spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt, actually -- that's good. Would you do the same with the equipment?

(in reply to BigDuke66)

Post #: 324

8th panzer mark II pz battalions - 12/8/2010 7:24:24 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up? Part 1:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 325

RE: 8th panzer mark II pz battalions part 2 - 12/8/2010 7:24:50 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up? Part 1:

Part 2:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by briantopp -- 12/8/2010 7:25:18 AM >

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 326

RE: 8th panzer mark II pz battalions part 2 - 12/8/2010 9:19:26 AM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

quote:

So if I understood the recipe correctly, this is how you'd set this up?

I think that is it.

quote:

when does the pzivf1 start and stop?

IVf1 487 prod, 4-41 to 3-42.
IVf2 prod 200, 3-42 to 5-42.
But ... TOAW doesn't have a IVg, instead it uses the IVf2 as the IVg, so when we see IVf2 in TOAW, treat it as the IVg. So we can forget the above numbers and go with this:

IVf1 487 prod, 4-41 to 3-42.
IVf2, IVg e, and IVg l - prod 1,887, 3-42 to 3-43 (afterwhich the IVh's started).

quote:

i basically feathered the newly-arriving divisions either (a) into "AGC reserve" if they are optional, or into armies that I thought would most likely be in most most desperate need of reinforcement

I've been looking at some of the units histories also, as long as things were possible we should be able to go along with the designers interpretation. No need to determine just exactly where some units were attached when this scenario situation is different from the historical.

quote:

... spreading out the 1942 surge replacements so that the 1942 retooling is less abrupt ...

I might recommend monitoring how it currently works, because I don't understand the replacement system at all, but have seen some cases were it takes a long time to get replacements into units. I might worry that spreading them out thru 1942 could prevent the mid-42 build up, or hinder it. I'm currently at turn 62 (5-42) so I expect something to happen, but nothing yet.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 12/8/2010 9:43:10 AM >

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 327

RE: 8th panzer mark II pz battalions part 2 - 12/8/2010 10:03:02 AM

briantopp

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Replacement surge should have happened on turn 50, along with all the pz battalions.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 328

RE: 8th panzer mark II pz battalions part 2 - 12/8/2010 1:32:28 PM

samba_liten

Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline

Was looking at the number of air craft in the Luftwaffe. It seems to me that they have too many. Did some research. Here is what i came up with. Might try the same for the Soviets later.

First twin engined units:

Present on east front		# of a/c 3-42	Type	Notes		
Stab./ZG 1 from 1-42 until 3-43			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 5		
I./ZG 1 from 5-42			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 37		
II./ZG 1 from 5-42			Bf110	no a/c info until 5-42 when it got 36		
I./ZG 26		44	Bf110			
II./ZG 26 until 3-42		20	Bf110			
						
						
	Production					
1941	594					
1942	501					
1943	641

_____________________________

السلام عليكم

(in reply to briantopp)

Post #: 329

RE: 8th panzer mark II pz battalions part 2 - 12/8/2010 1:34:07 PM

samba_liten

Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline

Next bombers and ground attack, part one:

Present on east front		# of a/c 3-42	Type	Notes		
Stab./KG1 until 11-42		2	He111	upgrades to ju 88 9-42		
I./KG 1 Until 4-43		6	JU88A	# is for 7-42		
II./KG 1 until 1-43		23	JU88A			
III./KG 1 until 11-42		21	JU88A			
Stab./KG 2 until 11-41		1	DO217			
I./KG 2 until 11-41		20	DO217

_____________________________

السلام عليكم

(in reply to samba_liten)

Post #: 330

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: German and Soviet TOE