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Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:28:57 AM

Spechtmeise

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I've been watching this forum and reading the posts. I really want to buy this game. But I have to admit that I am daunted by the scope and the amount of micromanagement that seems to be necessary.
So, what influence is GGWitE having on your performance at work and your family life at home?
I am not kidding. Can you play this game and still have a life?

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:34:20 AM

nukkxx5058

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No seriously, this game is easy to step in. It's nearly all about moving counters. Definitely NOT like "War in the Pacific". Buy it, you won't regret.

And I still have a life: reading the manual

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:36:54 AM

jomni

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Don't let the level of detail fool you.� This has less micromanagement than WITP. A lot of stuff are automated.
You will have no life because your non-playing time is spent thinking about the game as it is quite addicting.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/15/2010 7:37:49 AM >

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:45:54 AM

Templer_12

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@ Stratocruiser
the quick answer - yes, you can.

Yes, we often joking around here in the forum.

But in your first post you say "no kidding!" so seriously:

It is a very good game - to your question: if you are neglecting important areas of life, it is not the Wite the game, it's on your mental state.
If you leave the reality because of unimportant things - you have a serious problem!
And if you're an addict you need professional help.

Your question should not be discussed seriously by responsible adults.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:51:06 AM

JudgeDredd

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WitP is a massive game with a few problems for new people (well, these are the things that affected my immersion into it)...
1. It's massive and spread out so it's kind of difficult to a) think where to start and b) remember where you left off
2. Because of it's scale and the spread of units - it's hard for a new player to form a strategy
3. The only objective is defeat Japan - and that kind of objective, for many players is daunting...and the single most main reason why I never got into it properly. I needed objectives.

This game counters all 3 of those
1. It's massive, but you have a line of units and you can start from AGN to AGS, AGS to AGN or from the AGC out...but you can start from where you like and have a set way to go...therefore easier to track
2. There's no real difficulty in forming a strategy - you have to capture key, set objectives. The problems you will encounter is how far to push, how fast to push, how thin to leave your lines etc, etc...but you have objectives on the map to take
3. There are set objectives...so you know from the start what you need to do. You have the problem of how to do it and you are given alot of flexibility to do it.

Sure there's going to be stuff to manage...but from a pick up and play point of view, you can certainly do that. As an example, when you attack, the AI handles the air support - but you can go into air mode and attack yourself with aircraft.

And by pick up and play that's exactly what I mean - but you will eventually have to work things out as you progress...for example, when some of my units were attacking near Misnk, I saw a message flash up basically saying I couldn't have air support due to lack of resources (ordinance or fuel or whatever) - I only caught a glimpse of it, but that's what it looked like to me...so I will need to read up on that.

Also, I need to look into transport points (motor pool?), commanders, rail repairs, supply, maximising attack values.

Now although I have to learn all that, it's not stopped me firing up Minsk and attacking (and seemingly failing because I was apparently too cautious!) - as it is I seem to have fallen short of the objective(s)by quite some margin...seems I was more concerned with turning troops north and south to get that big juicy pocket than heading for my objectives!

But the game is definitely pick up and play...with some manual browsing required from time to time

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 7:53:03 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser
So, what influence is GGWitE having on your performance at work and your family life at home?
I am not kidding. Can you play this game and still have a life?

I would think if it affects anyones family life then they need to chat to someone...and I mean that seriously. It's good, but anything that's "good enough" to make you have real life issues needs to be dealt with

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 8:08:30 AM

jjoshua

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I have joked around here with some silly threads about playing the game to obsession, but to be honest, yeah it right now is taking some time away from other real life stuff, but not to the point of ruining my life.

This is the first game I have gotten that I jumped into right off the bat. Usually I slave over the manual, and hesitate to jump right into the pool. With this game, it really gives we players who are not as skilled as others to immerse ourselves from the git go.

Trust me, all kidding aside, this game is a blast, and I rather doubt you will lose family time over it to an absurd degree.

This one is a gem, not to be ignored or have any concern over in the family sense.

Trust me....

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 8:46:47 AM

IronWarrior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

No seriously, this game is easy to step in. It's nearly all about moving counters. Definitely NOT like "War in the Pacific".

Ok so I'm on the other side of this fence and I am getting more and more worried about this common theme I am starting to see. I LOVE WitP, so will I like this game? Or has it been dumbed down for wider appeal? I sure hope 2by3 isn't going that route.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 9:03:52 AM

jjoshua

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Well I don't know what the common 'theme' you are seeing is....

But if one reads all the threads posted here; especially from the main testers, and obviously many other talented wargamers here, I don't think they would have such high regard for BiTE, if they felt it was a 'Dumb'd' down version of WiTP.

Hey, WiTP is not for the squimish....and I respect any guy or gal who can master that game.

I don't think that mass 'Complexity' should be the main criteria of a game always.

Hell, Chess is the most strategic and complex game there is, yet millions of young kids to senior citizens play it just for the pure enjoyment and fun, with no illusions of a GrandMaster in mind. My granddaughter still calls the knight a horsey, yet Bobby Fischer wreaked havic with that little horsey, and kept the world spellbound for decades afterward.

Final thought...

BiTE is just plain fun to play...and so rarely does one find a game that meets the standards of all sides of the equation in both talent and strategy.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 9:18:39 AM

IronWarrior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjarredd

Well I don't know what the common 'theme' you are seeing is....

Exhibit B: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2649999

I'm hearing rave reviews about this game, unfortunately they seem to be coming from people saying "it's not like WitP" and a lot of the raving is about a loss of complexity. I'd just hate to see the only developer that makes these types of games dumb things down and alienate the more hardcore fans. I'm happy to hear you say it's "fun", but that is a bit vague. Playing Scooby Doo on the Wii with the kids can be "fun", but it's no WitP.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 12/15/2010 9:19:08 AM >

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 9:51:23 AM

jomni

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The game is still quite complex.� The level of detail is still deep, it's just a bit easier to get started and playing.
That's the beauty of the game.� People who dislike moster games at least have a chance while monster game lovers are satisfied at the same time.

The big difference between WITE and WITP is that you don't need to give�those little�tactical orders which some think are just nuisances, time consuming, and exploitable.� Another one is that the supply (movement) and aircraft production model is hands-off. It's not dumbed down. It's just FOCUSED. The player focused on high level tasks like the real OKH/STAVKA and not playing the role of his subbordinates (the air commander, division commander, etc).

I don't think WITP-type engine and game mechanics will work in the Eastern Front.� Imagine clicking the�combat/movement�stance of each land unit, ordering missions and altitudes for each air group. Commanding each train to move supplies. Well in WITP that's a breeze compared to the sheer size of the armies involved in the Easter Front.

Unlike the PTO where battles occur sporadically but intensely (and some�naval battle here and there)...� The Eastern front involved millions of troops on both sides with�several thousand tanks in continousous combat in a continuous frontline for four years.� You also don't need to fiddle with airplane production and reasearch because these don't play a major role like in the Pacific or during the Allied Strategic bombing.

Actually some feel that WITE gives justice to the Eastern Front as WITP has given justice to PTO.� So both of them are actually stellar 'monster' games in their own right and shouldn't even be competing against each other.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/15/2010 10:00:07 AM >

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 10:08:19 AM

L�tzow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

Ok so I'm on the other side of this fence and I am getting more and more worried about this common theme I am starting to see. I LOVE WitP, so will I like this game? Or has it been dumbed down for wider appeal? I sure hope 2by3 isn't going that route.

No, it's not dumbed down. Regarding complexity (rules and variables) this game is in a ball park with WitP. Plenty of stuff to learn here. On the other hand, it got streamlined in terms of logistics, production and air war, and also has less on-map units to be considered - what again shortens the time a turn takes to be finished. In summary that makes WitE feel less overwhelming and hardcore as AE. Frankly, I sorta miss the deep detailed air model here. However, to make a final conclusion about how both compare to each other - aside of the fact that WitE by design is not sandbox style, and cannot be due to the very nature of this conflict - one has to be proficient and played through a longer campaign. I guess, at the moment nobody but the dev's and some beta testers can evaluate this game to full extent.

That said, WitE is the best operational level East Front title I have seen for the last 15 years. So for dedicated East Front buffs the answer should be a no-brainer.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 10:17:38 AM

jjoshua

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LOL!!!

Didn't know there was a Scooby Doo Wii mode...

I still haven't gotten over my 'Dora' flashbacks from my granddaughters game player.

I will clarify my 'fun' remark...

I find it fun that I can load the game on my system, scan the manual, skim through the tutorial and start to play the game with a basic knowledge of the starting points. By no means, does that even allow me to whip right into the larger scenerios or major campaign, and have my way.

Obviously you are much more skilled than I am, but there are many on this thread that find this game very challenging in all aspects, who from what I have gathered in there comments, are very skilled as well.

I hope this clarifies my fun remark a little better.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 10:29:06 AM

Avenger

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Comparing this to WITP is not really fair. In WITP you can grab a bunch of transports in SanFrancisco and route them to Austrailia and not look at them again for twenty turns. In WITP the turns generally take me one hour, and that means I am checking every detail. I could do it faster if I just skimmed past most of the non critical elements.

In the Grand campaign in WITE the turns are taking me five hours. Every turn takes me five hours, minimum. I feel that I need to move every unit, every turn. And you don't get to put units on an auto move here. It took me two hours to do the ten turn tutorial but the Grand Campaign, well, I am on turn seven still. I don't have time to do a single turn on a week day. Not in the Grand campaign. Smaller campaigns would be much more manageable. Playing Army Group North, to Leningrad, would not take me nearly so long.

It is easy to jump in and just move the counters, like a puzzle game, but it is incredibly complex.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 10:29:31 AM

JudgeDredd

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They're just two completely different games and play completely differently. Alot of stuff is handled for you, but you can take control should you wish.

I definitely would not say it's dumbed down. The bean counting is there if you want it.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 10:47:33 AM

Adam Parker

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)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Sure there's going to be stuff to manage...but from a pick up and play point of view, you can certainly do that...

But the game is definitely pick up and play...with some manual browsing required from time to time

Nice overview Judge, you're giving me courage to perservere (got a couple of great boardgames going at the same time

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 11:13:36 AM

JudgeDredd

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I've only really played the Tutorial and Minsk - Minsk is taking enough time to do - but it is very manageable. I'm confident once you've got a couple of the little ones out the way, the bigger picture won't look so daunting.

From a rules and learning to play properly perspective it will definitely take time...but hitting the ground running works great - the interface is pretty intuitive tbh

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 12:53:41 PM

Rasputitsa

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I have only played 'Road to Minsk' twice, the second time I let the Southern armoured pincer get bogged down in the swamps - pitiful - couldn't get a win with a one handed attack. Still, I learned what not to do. Now 7 turns into 'Road to Leningrad', achieved a quick breakthrough and encirclement on the border, took Pskov and Talinin in reasonable time. Still not sure about handling HQs, auto rail repair very slow, not sure why. Learning all the time, now moving airbases, transferring aircraft, making airdrops and seeing the danger of not flying enough recon flights.

Soviet AI responding reasonably well, starting to see a defence forming, I could not quite close a second pocket, probably due shortage of supplies. The AI held for a time, but when the danger became obvious, the pocket emptied, only one 'stay behind' unit left. AI is now threatening the extended east Flank and beginning to defend Leningrad.

The Finns become active in turn 5, but the A1 knows this and 'bugs out' earlier, I did not encounter Soviet units until I reached the Finns no-go line near Leningrad, whilst to the east I have not reached the line yet, moving slowly through the forests, but have not encountered any opposition yet. It is a little early to tell, but the Finns seem to be rather pointless at the moment, hopefully this will change.

So far all very good and the scenarios are well presented to lead you into the game, each one can be played larger than the last. You can play the game straight out of the box with knowing much of the detail, for example the 3 turn 'Road to Minsk' is short enough that you can have a good game, without being hurt by not knowing some of the supply and HQ preparations you need to stay in action for longer periods. You learn these as you move into the longer scenarios.

In brief, I have been able to dive quickly into the game and, with little practice, enjoy some good games without too much frustration that you can sometimes get with a title that you don't fully understand. I can see from the forum that there might be problems with bigger scenarios which look daunting, but by the time I get to them I should be better equipped.

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RE: Undecided - 12/15/2010 1:03:20 PM

hgilmer3

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I've played the tutorial once (never went back because I figured it was only suitable for the tutorial), Road to Minsk about 10 times, and the Road to Smolensk twice.

I haven't been late to work one time and I haven't been late to bed but one time. I can see that the Grand Campaign will take longer, though, especially if you think through the strategy and not just attack indiscriminately.

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RE: Undecided - 12/16/2010 3:41:35 AM

IronWarrior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

No, it's not dumbed down. Regarding complexity (rules and variables) this game is in a ball park with WitP. Plenty of stuff to learn here. On the other hand, it got streamlined in terms of logistics, production and air war, and also has less on-map units to be considered - what again shortens the time a turn takes to be finished. In summary that makes WitE feel less overwhelming and hardcore as AE. Frankly, I sorta miss the deep detailed air model here. However, to make a final conclusion about how both compare to each other - aside of the fact that WitE by design is not sandbox style, and cannot be due to the very nature of this conflict - one has to be proficient and played through a longer campaign. I guess, at the moment nobody but the dev's and some beta testers can evaluate this game to full extent.

That said, WitE is the best operational level East Front title I have seen for the last 15 years. So for dedicated East Front buffs the answer should be a no-brainer.

Thanks for the comments guys, makes me feel less worried. These comments in particular, as the abstracted air model on top of the "not WitP" comments started to get me worried. GG and 2by3 hasn't let me down yet though so I'm probably fretting about nothing.... looking forward to picking this one up.

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RE: Undecided - 12/16/2010 3:52:03 AM

jjdenver

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I've played a TON of games on PC and board including a ton of monsters like Longest Day, Fire in the East, etc. This game is not dumbed down. It's DEEEEP. But the nice thing is that there are some aids to help you play it at a higher level if you want to. You can let AI run various things, and use commanders report to set things up for multiple units at once. Or you can go into every single unit and customize - it's up to you.

< Message edited by jjdenver -- 12/16/2010 4:00:53 AM >

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RE: Undecided - 12/16/2010 6:59:51 AM

Indy68

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The micromanagement is not the problem, unless you specifically want to micromanage. You may, for example, select AI to handle airfields bombardment (and that's not a setting, but a command that you may select every turn). There is virtually no economy/tech development (which I would rather like to have

)

Learning the game well is pretty hard. The manual is about 400 pages and even experienced warplayer (I have played tactical/strategical wargames since 1985) will do mistakes without reading the manual. But if you want to learn by mistakes rather than reading the manual first, then that's no problem.

The truth with every game is that if you like it, you want to spend time with it, thus you are addicted. If you have a little less sleep because of a game, or think about the game when you should think of something else, you are addicted. I believe that at least 95% of this forum readers have either experienced addiction or are addicted at this moment.

Personally I was very worried of getting too addicted when I bought this game. I'm still learning and I'm not yet addicted, but who knows what happens when I have learned more of the game and it becomes more fun.

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RE: Undecided - 12/16/2010 9:01:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Indy68

The manual is about 400 pages

Actually it works out to around 340 pages if you take out the history, credits, ads, disclaimers, etc. (you could pare that down even more by killing the "look, this is the main screen" stuff)

And for gee whiz, kinko's wanted around $40 for a bound b&w print of it. It ended up taking an entire black ink cartridge on an ink jet printer here (and then most of the graphics are between hard and extremely hard to read in b&w, by the way).

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RE: Undecided - 12/16/2010 11:33:31 AM

FredSanford3

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IMO, the "it's not WITP" means the interface is much more efficient and so you spend much less time on 'housekeeping'. It has the detail of WITP, with emphasis on the ground war (obviously), but the detail is presented and manipulated in a much better fashion. Your OOB, commander's reports, and other management tools in WitE are much, much more useful that WITP's, where such information is pretty much 'dumb' lists with limited interaction, compared to WitE.

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