How deep is too deep ?

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How deep is too deep ? - 12/17/2010 11:23:13 PM

CharonJr

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Hi,

this is turn 6 with the Soviets having lost about 1.1 million men, 7k afv and 7k planes. My motor pool is at 187/134 now and I am wondering how much deeper I can go before running into serious supply troubles here.

I doubt that a Orel->Kursk->Kharkov->Dnepropetrovsk pocket is possible, but simply cutting to the north and south from my current position seems to be lacking ambition to me ;) Especially since from what my recon showed currently the areas around and between Orel, Kursk, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk seem to be pretty much devoid of enemies.

What do you think is a reasonable depth for a pocket before supply will slow me down that much that I might fail in actually closing the pocket?

BTW, Axis losses are about 10% of the Soviet losses at the moment.

CharonJr

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/17/2010 11:26:02 PM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 1:14:52 AM

Rickuh

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That would definitely be an awesome encirclement! Where did you send 2nd German Army?

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 9:19:12 AM

CharonJr

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2. Armee is just south of the marshes to the west of Kiev, but I really doubt that I would be able to pull of an encirclement of this size, thats why I am a looking for some input about the the realistic length for my lines of supply.

But it looks like nobody tried to pull of something like this before and most likely they are right ;)

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 9:25:29 AM

PyleDriver

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I don't see your railhead in the south. It's very hard to say. Look at your corps HQ's it will tell you the lenght...

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 9:40:18 AM

CharonJr

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Odessa is serving as a supply center in the south and one railhead is close to Tarnopol while the other is at the bend in the Dnestr 5 hexes north of Kishinev (right with the HQ from the 3rd Rum. Army).

CharonJr

< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/18/2010 9:42:30 AM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 10:24:34 AM

CharonJr

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I think I will create a save at this point and give it a shot.

The earlier attack on Cherkassy was a waste of fuel in this case, but maybe the Soviets will try to take it back and place some troops there. At least my units there are still able to move and protect the flanks of the spearhead towards Dnepropetrovsk.

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/18/2010 11:04:52 AM

JamesM

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I think if I was Soviet Solder I would be running very fast East!

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/22/2010 12:13:41 AM

CharonJr

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Well, I had to realise that my initial fears were correct, I am unable to create such a large pocket and after having meet some serious opposition I finally decided to follow my original plan and create a much smaller, but still decent pocket.

I could have had this one about 2 turns earlier, but I think this is exactly what a first GC game is for.

And while I am able to close the large gap with another unit the Soviets have a decent chance to crack open the pocket right were my AG Mitte and S�d are meeting, am lacking 1 MP here.

So, unless you really know what you are doing, dont try this at home... ;)

CharonJr

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/22/2010 12:16:54 AM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/22/2010 12:21:02 AM

ComradeP

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Let us know how long it too the infantry to clean it up, I'd be really interested in hearing that considering the huge size of the pocket.

Of course, this also captures terrain as if you're playing Go due to the isolated Soviets losing control of the hexes they have no ZOC over.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/22/2010 12:25:43 AM

hgilmer3

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Holy Schnikes that's the mother of all encirclements.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/22/2010 12:40:40 AM

ComradeP

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It seems there are about as many divisions in that pocket as you would normally pocket on turn 1, between 70 and 80.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/22/2010 8:59:48 PM

CharonJr

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Currently I am mainly worried that I will be unable to keep the pocket sealed.

Does anybody know if an armored/motorised unit with low fuel will gain additional MPs if I air supply them before (or even after) they move?

And I really need a large pocket since my failed attempt to create a huge pocket has left the Soviets with way too much manpower due to me having essentially wasted turns. On the other hand AG Mitte is in fairly good shape after 2 turns of rest.

CharonJr

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Post #: 12

RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 12:35:06 AM

CharonJr

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The pocket is shrinking fairly quickly.

With around 10-20 units still inside the "pocket" and 75 destroyed Soviet units, 512k men, 4.7k guns and 0.4k tanks I estimate that in 2 turns the last Soviet units inside the pocket should surrender.

But with 4.1m men, 35k guns, 4.7k afv and 6.9k planes the Soviets still look fairly strong (+0.5m men, equal guns, +2k afv and +3.4k planes vs. Germany). But on the other hand I have no idea what a resonable level of advance or a decent force ratio would be by turn 10.

It will be interesting to see how the AI will react to my threat against Kursk, thats why I moved some of my armor despite them being low on fuel with only my other armored forces resting up for this turn.

CharonJr

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/23/2010 12:37:29 AM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 2:41:24 AM

Mynok

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That's quite an impressive land grab there. I do have to wonder why you marched those infantry through the swamp?

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 5:19:04 AM

V22 Osprey

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That's the finest encirclement of ANY operational wargame I've ever seen. Impressive to say the least.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 5:44:50 AM

NavalNewZ

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Interesting to see this pushing the possibilities, as it were. It seems to me that a slightly more conservative approach is acceptable, assuming that an idea like this doesn't just break open the position entirely. Ongoing forming of pockets is key for the Germans in the opening moves.

< Message edited by NavalNewZ -- 12/23/2010 5:58:11 AM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 6:29:07 AM

PyleDriver

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From what I see in all this fuss, is that his main armored formations will be out of supply for some turns or very slim supplies...Btw what turn is it? And what level are you playing at...

< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 12/23/2010 6:31:52 AM >

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 6:33:27 AM

PyleDriver

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One more thing, I smell a rat...

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 6:35:23 AM

Tzar007

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Wow, what a massive pocket. Hats off to you, Herr Feldmarschall. I think you made the wise decision going with your "smaller" option. A Kursk-Kharkov-Dnepropretovsk pocket would have been one too far.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 7:55:08 AM

CharonJr

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Turn 10 normal.

And yes, PyleDriver is right, as can be seen by the latest screenshot my I drove further east with HG Mitte on this approach and didnt have the gap between the two HGs as before. After miscalculating the MPs of my armor spearhead I reloaded for the encirclement and saw that I had better movement options ( clearing the initial Soviet defenses with different units).

Without trying to go for the large encirclement a similar situation should have been possible by turn 8. And yes, those mobile units need some serious rest and I dont want to know what will happen to my supply trucks one the next turn.

I still dont hink that it will be a phyrric victory since I need to make up the time I wasted, but it will hurt.

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 9:38:37 AM

Wikingus

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Wow that is impressive. Hat's off to you, even if you did reload the game once to do it.

In my current PBEM game I never ever managed to pocket anything remotely that large. Then again, it is against a human opponent, and it's my first grand campaign. But considering the frustration I've felt over that this is most impressive no matter what.

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 2:04:19 PM

CharonJr

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Regarding the infantry in the marshes, at first I needed them to protect my railhead, then I just kept moving them east (which was a mistake) ;)

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 4:15:33 PM

CharonJr

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Turn 11, not much left of the pocket. 11 additional Soviet units surrendered (66k men, 0.8k guns, some afv).

Most of my armored forces in the center are between 10%-40% fuel and supplies, but there was enough punch left in 2 panzerkorps to encircle Kursk while the other 6 panzerkorps are resting up.

Depending om their fuel/supply levels I might try to move 1 panzergruppe (south) towards Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye next turn for an encirclement there while the rest will concentrate on Kharkov.

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 5:42:45 PM

leehunt27@bloomberg.net

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Pretty sweet panzer drive CharonJr. Well done setting the bar for us all against the AI! Of course in PBEM i gotta watch out when i start as Soviets...

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 9:23:20 PM

CharonJr

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And here are the final results:

At turn 12 only 1 Soviet infantry division is left, with 5 more Soviet units having surrendered during turn 12 (about 33k men), bringing up the totals to 91 units with 610k men, 6k guns and about 600 afv which got taken out during the last 3 turns (in addition to units at the other fronts).

3 turns for clearing up the pocket purely with infantry looks ok to me.

I dont know enough about the game yet to have any idea if those losses are enough considering that the mud will hit soon.

Mainly I am afraid that my progress in the the north is fairly bad (will post a screenshot in the next post).

In the south I am not sure if going for Stalino will be possible, but I am fairly confident that I can establish a line along Orel, Kursk, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye and the Azov Sea.

CharonJr

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RE: How deep is too deep ? - 12/23/2010 9:35:24 PM

CharonJr

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While I can still move all those units I doubt that I will be able to reach the 3 ports during this turn, is there any other way to cut off Leningrad from supply?

3 armored and 2 mot divisions are in decent shape up there (50-80% fuel/supplies, 30-35MP), but ththe terrain is not exactly mech/mot friendly ;)

And the bulge south of Leningrad/west of Moscow is far from pretty I am fairly sure that I will not be able to do anything about it before the mud hits.

CharonJr