Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Moving Airbases ???

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Moving Airbases ??? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 7:51:43 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		Pardon in advance my question that may be stupid or showing I'm an ignirant but how on earth is it possible to move air bases ? I supposed that planes need runways and other equipment which are, by nature, not easily movable. Where are the runways for my planes to take off and land ?

Could anybody clarify this point for me ?

I didn't print and read the manual yet. I am waiting for my Christmas present: a Sony Ebook reader :-))_

< Message edited by nukkxx -- 12/18/2010 8:34:25 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 8:52:48 AM   
Rickuh


Posts: 9
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		You're not moving runways, but you are moving the mechanics, armorers, fueling & fuel storing equipment, anti-aircraft, and other support. The aircraft just "fly" to the new base location. An important point to keep in mind is that air base units can only launch aircraft if they are located in clear, light woods, or urban hexes.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 2
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:07:39 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		how can an airbase launch an aircraft without runways or worse, from a "light wood" ? Sorry but this makes no sense to me ...



< Message edited by nukkxx -- 12/18/2010 9:08:51 AM >

(in reply to Rickuh)
Post #: 3
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:09:29 AM   
Timmeh


Posts: 767
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline 		one word ' abstraction '

_____________________________


(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 4
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:28:24 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Back then there was few runways, mainly it was a flat patch of grass...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Timmeh)
Post #: 5
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:36:35 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		So if I understand well, you are telling me that during east campaign in WW2 airfields were mobile structures ? Is this really historically acurate ?

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 6
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:37:03 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

how can an airbase launch an aircraft without runways or worse, from a "light wood" ? Sorry but this makes no sense to me ...





Most airfields in Russia were dirt or grass strips. They didn’t need large 8000-9000 foot concrete runways to operate most airframes like the US and British strategic bombers needed. So one week’s time is more than enough to carve out an airstrip capable of handling the airframes in question.

As is mentioned above it’s the base facilities that limit air operations. Mechanics, fuel depots, spare parts, base defense forces, etc. are the big issue when moving your air power from one place to another. And those facilities are represented by the air base counters. The planes assigned to the counters can be assumed to be spread out over many small airfields in its hex and perhaps some of the surrounding hexes, so that part is an abstraction.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/18/2010 9:38:52 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 7
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:37:31 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Timmeh

one word ' abstraction '


No sorry. This is supposed to be deadly accurate game.

(in reply to Timmeh)
Post #: 8
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:42:51 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx


quote:



Most airfields in Russia were dirt or grass strips. They didn’t need large 8000-9000 foot concrete runways to operate most airframes like the US and British strategic bombers needed. So one week’s time is more than enough to carve out an airstrip capable of handling the airframes in question.

As is mentioned above it’s the base facilities that limit air operations. Mechanics, fuel depots, spare parts, base defense forces, etc. are the big issue when moving your air power from one place to another. And those facilities are represented by the air base counters. The planes assigned to the counters can be assumed to be spread out over many small airfields in its hex and perhaps some of the surrounding hexes, so that part is an abstraction.

Jim



No sorry. This is supposed to be deadly accurate game.


Ok ... ok ... I get your point. But this is certainly the most bizarre/unrealistic part of the game. Especially when considering the HUGE amount of MP of these structures !

< Message edited by nukkxx -- 12/18/2010 9:43:45 AM >

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 9
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:47:47 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		US seabees were the best at the time (different front), jungle what jungle theres your air strip...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 10
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 9:56:10 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx
Especially when considering the HUGE amount of MP of these structures !


It’s a design decision, but when you consider what moving would entail it’s not as bad as you might think. First you get the order, move your groups to the area southwest of Kiev. You take what 2 or 3 days to get your command packed up and ready to go. Then it takes what half a day to drive to Kiev from the Polish border? Probably less but let’s be generous and say two days.

You then take a day or two unpacking your command and getting your air operations up and running. That’s a week, so I’m not too concerned about the movement distance. Allowing planes to fly in the same turn an airbase moves is another question though.

It’s probably an abstraction made to prevent overcomplicating all the behind the scenes planning that would go into setting up advance airbases in anticipation of the move. It can very well be done (and probably was) with perfect timing so that when the base stuff arrives planes were already on the new airstrips and ready to go, but more often than not there were probably delays involved for most moves.

I’m not familiar with the game enough to tell if moving airbases has a major impact on the performance of those planes or not. But I assume it would have some detrimental effect. If not it should at least for the turn of the move.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 11
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 10:16:14 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		In fact air base unit is a series of real life airbases operating under one command and geographically located in one region. We don't model air fields as it is done in WITP, where they placed in some particular location/city. This greatly reducing the complexity and allows player to manage better air assets in situation of rapidly advancing/or retreating fronts.

As for movements, for example Soviet air groups were not tied to any particular air base. All personal could be reallocated (fly over) to other place quite fast and use available facilities there. As stated above in many cases such facilities were very minimalistic.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 12
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 10:48:21 AM   
Timmeh


Posts: 767
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline 		OK, perhaps an illustration then:

consider then the square counter beside the can of green goodness a typical AF counter in our game. What do they have in common?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 13
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 10:49:21 AM   
Timmeh


Posts: 767
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline 		OMG.. they're People!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Timmeh)
Post #: 14
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 10:59:34 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...

(in reply to Timmeh)
Post #: 15
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:30:52 AM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...


Believe it or not, it's a very realistic depiction.....


some selected quotes:

Luftwaffe units found themselves shuttling back and forth from battlefront to battlefront throughout the late summer and fall- a situation that only exacerbated supply and maintenance difficulties on the primitive grass fields of the theater. Visiting bases in the east in fall 1941, Milch discovered a catastrophic situation: aircraft were awaiting repairs at a number of bases, but no work was occurring because the units had moved on and the supply system was providing barely enough bombs, fuel and parts to support operations.

On 9 October the Luftwaffe flew only 300 sorties off the sodden grass strips that were its bases. If the Luftwaffe had confronted great difficulties so far, it was now entering a nightmare period.

Only the arrival of cold weather in mid November allowed the ground forces to resume the advance on Moscow. The Luftwaffe, however, was unable to provide much support. Its strength in front of Moscow lay on unimproved airstrips with neither the maintenance nor supply support for sustained operations.

The figures on the Eastern Front were even worse, as Luftwaffe ground crews attempted to repair aircraft in unheated shelters in temperatures well below zero.

http://junebarbarossa.devhub.com/blog/3030-luftwaffe-the-first-year-of-the-eastern-front/

The source isn't special, but you won't find one which says anything different.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 16
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:31:28 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...


Why? What would be better model with given game size and complexity, without major impact to the playability?

I'm not saying that air model is perfect, but exiting level of approximation, ihmo, does very good job. There is so many things which can be added on the top and make air war more realistic.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 17
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:34:54 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Don't get Pavel started on the Air Model!!!!

_____________________________

It's only a Game


(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 18
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:36:09 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Don't get Pavel started on the Air Model!!!!


I'm on the other side now, Bob

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 19
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:42:43 AM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes. There were permanent airfields of various sizes at these places and a permanent airfield did improve many things. After the Germans retreat in 44, the Luftwaffe was comparatively functional because it was suddenly very close to it's home bases and their workshops.

However, this is really only a minor nice to have.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 20
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:43:52 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...


Why? What would be better model with given game size and complexity, without major impact to the playability?

I'm not saying that air model is perfect, but exiting level of approximation, ihmo, does very good job. There is so many things which can be added on the top and make air war more realistic.


What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 21
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:48:14 AM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.


You really should read up on the subject. A good starting point is the link I posted earlier.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 22
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 11:59:35 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life


Can you elaborate on the "real life" and fixed AF? Fixed where? Would it be enough if I place the code:

bool REAL_LIFE=true;
bool FIXED_AIRFIELDS=false;

main()
{
..
if(REAL_LIFE)
FIXED_AIRFIELDS=true;
..
}

We accept any constructive proposals.

For example:
quote:

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes. There were permanent airfields of various sizes at these places and a permanent airfield did improve many things. After the Germans retreat in 44, the Luftwaffe was comparatively functional because it was suddenly very close to it's home bases and their workshops.


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 23
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:12:18 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:


What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.


The game is simulating real life, in 1940 (Battle of Britain) there were no paved runways in Britain (a well developed country). A grass landing area allowed a squadron to take off together in formation, in any direction - into wind, tail wheel aircraft are easier to handle on a grass surface - less chance of a ground loop. All of this applies equally to Russia where airfields were set up on any suitable grass, or dirt, terrain, the use of paved runways, or steel mesh landing strips, came later in the war.

Wartime footage of aircraft using runways comes from later in the war, especially as nose-wheel undercarriage came into use (danger of digging into soft surfaces) and aircraft weight increased.

In 1944 the allied tactical airforces went to France, not to use fixed airbases, but to rapidly prepared strips, same thing happened in the Pacific, airfields were quickly carved out of whatever was available.

I don't know what more to say, look at genuine video footage of the war in Russia and see if you can see a paved runway in use during the early war period.

The game is accurate.



(in reply to nukkxx5058)
Post #: 24
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:33:24 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes.


Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields".

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 25
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:39:26 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields


Don't get it too straight.. it may sound like:

- City should be located on function rail
- Air base unit shouldn't move this turn
- Same nationality city should provide higher bonus
- Bonus shouldn't be big (+10-20%, not x2)

etc..

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 26
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:43:09 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

IMO what might be worthwhile is to give a bonus to repairing damaged aircraft and fatigue reduction to air bases in cities/towns/light urban hexes.


Not a good idea, too open to exploitation. People would move their air bases to those type of hexes at the end of their turn to get the bonus in their next logistics phase. It would also allow people to do so on the same turn they capture a city, regardless of whether any airfield was historically present.

The design decision was: no airfields, so it would be odd to suddenly say "there are no airfields, but we consider urban hexes of any kind to (magically) have airfields".


Fair enough.

Is there any special influence of blizzard turns of repair/fatigue reduction for air units? The manuel doesn't mention anything.

Also, while we are on the subject of Air Bases, is there any way to calculate the Support Squad needs of an air unit prior to moving it to an air base? This would be helpful to prevent overloading.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 27
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:46:52 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Is it possible to track whether a unit has moved, without linking it to MP's? Air base MP's lower when missions are flown, so if it's only linked to MP's, which have to remain at their starting point of the turn for a turn, then it also means: no missions, which is difficult to manage as there's no "don't fly missions" button.

I'd be fine with a small repair bonus for when air bases are in urban areas linked to an operational rail line, but as an abstraction of better supplies, not of the presence of an airfield in the urban area.



_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 28
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:48:34 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Is it possible to track whether a unit has moved, without linking it to MP's?


Yes

quote:

but as an abstraction of better supplies, not of the presence of an airfield in the urban area.


Yes

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 29
RE: Moving Airbases ??? - 12/18/2010 12:54:16 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		OK, in that case I support the suggestion for a small repair bonus in urban hexes on a functional rail line (say: not the same nationality 10%-20%, same nationality 30%-40%).

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Moving Airbases ??? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.805