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Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 2:08:44 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
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I see this annoyance is still in the game.Can we please have this stopped so only allied can do this.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 2:52:44 PM

VarekRaith

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/21/2010
From: Manassas, Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I see this annoyance is still in the game.Can we please have this stopped so only allied can do this.

This.
What I'd really like is to have is the ability to bar any militarily strategic resource from export. Especially fuels. Had an alien fleet stop by and took most of my fuel, causing an empire wide shortage. Not cool.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 2

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 4:24:34 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

Shoot first, send warnings later.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 5:17:56 PM

EisenHammer

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith
What I'd really like is to have is the ability to bar any militarily strategic resource from export. Especially fuels. Had an alien fleet stop by and took most of my fuel, causing an empire wide shortage. Not cool.

Greedy private sector all they ever want to do is make a profit.

(in reply to VarekRaith)

Post #: 4

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 5:54:07 PM

Spacecadet

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
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If you don't want them using your facilities/resources, then change your Trade relations status.

Without a Trade Embargo, you're pretty much saying you want peaceful and positive/neutral relations with that Empire.

Now as for having the ability to select which items you are willing/unwilling to trade with other Empires (outside the unique items), yeah, I'd like to see that myself.
I often see my Empire running out of certain luxury items as the game progresses. If you go through some of your Ports an view the inventory you'll see mass quantities of these items as being reserved for other Empires.

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 5

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 8:59:13 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

The US trade with China but it does not mean they want the Chinese refueling their Fleet at pearl habour.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 9:34:34 PM

Spacecadet

Posts: 1780
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

The US trade with China but it does not mean they want�the Chinese refueling their Fleet at pearl habour.

You make a good point in regard to current times, but a better analogy might be Colonial or better yet maybe Star Trek (Original).

I say Colonial because of the vastness and the unknown/unexplored involved. Ships would harbor in foreign ports and take on provisions.
For a Star Trek reference consider the Klingons and their trade/relations with Federation Starbases.

In both of these cases I look at this more as a re-provisioning transaction since the actual number of resources we have is as limited as they are.

I really do understand what you're saying and I tend to agree, but until we can selectively choose what we're willing to trade with another Empire I regard this as an aspect of the above to situations.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 7

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/18/2010 9:54:35 PM

Simulation01

Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
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I agree with Ashberry76 wholeheartedly and without reservations. I have the same things happening to me. Another thing I would like to do is to restrict my private sector from throwing ships into the meat grinder of my hostile and belligerent neighbor! I lose a ton of commercial ships because they repeatedly attempt to trade with the villainous Dhayut! I even slapped trade sanctions on them and yet...I got tons of warning sirens and pop-ups as my commercial fleet sallied forth into the gaping maw of Dhayut space.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 3:05:14 AM

elliotg

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Joined: 9/10/2007
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This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 9

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 3:14:16 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

Especially when I don't have enough gas to fill up my own ships...which seems to be my normal state of affairs.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 4:39:24 AM

TheLastRonin

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Joined: 12/10/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I agree with these notions (The MDP and Free Trade Agreement). Both are good.

< Message edited by TheLastRonin -- 12/19/2010 4:40:17 AM >

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 11

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 5:13:43 AM

Spacecadet

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Yeah, outside of being able to select what you're willing to trade on the open market, I think at least a positive relations trigger should probably be used.

An FTA should definitely allow refueling.

How about a checkbox in the settings so it can be customized to the player's preferences, that should make everyone happy?

(in reply to TheLastRonin)

Post #: 12

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 5:44:03 AM

Simulation01

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I think the ability to refuel in another empires space/facilities should be a whole treaty by itself. Something like a 'cooperation' or 'assistance' treaty. This should apply to the 'state' level of ops. Private or commercial ships should still be able to refuel in another empires space....however, as I said before...You should have some sort of way of commanding the private sector to stay clear of certain empires space....maybe the idea of convoy's should be introduced somehow as well for the private sector....or fighter escorts or something.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 6:35:03 AM

lordxorn

Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

Free trade agreement should only allow civilian ships to purchase goods between spaceports
while the Mutual Defense Pact would allow military vessels.

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Post #: 14

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 7:45:54 AM

forsaken1111

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I would like to see the trading system expanded somewhat, and have written up a brief description.

The current system should remain for those who don�t want to set and maintain specific policies; after all that seems to be the traditional stance of the game, allowing you to deal with whatever level of detail you are comfortable with and automating the rest.

I propose that trade be given its own section on the diplomacy window, with a way to set specific policies for each race.

The first level of detail would be a menu with each race much like the existing diplomacy window. Clicking a race would change the right-side panel to a list of broad trading plans, each with a checkmark such as:

-Luxury Exports - Authorize the export of surplus luxury resources to this empire.
-Common Construction Exports - Export common construction materials to this empire. (any strategic resource listed as �very common�)
-Weapon Components Ban - Disallow exports of any material which is the main component of a weapon system. (Iridium for bombardment weapons, for example)
-Strategic Reserve - Limit exports to materials which stockpile exceeds current demand by 50%.
-Preferred Partner - Preferentially trade with this race over other available partners.

These aren�t meant to be conclusive, just examples. Beyond this, one could simply go into a more detailed window and set each resource on/off for that race.

This would add depth to the diplomacy and strategy of the game. If I can secure and control most sources of Carbon Fibre on the map and choose to trade it only with my allies, it would financially harm my enemies. This also allows you to remove the awkward �trade loros fruit� checkmark from the diplomacy screen (or whatever other extremely rare resource you have) and put it in its own trade interface.

This also opens the game up to requests, demands, and raids for specific materials. Imagine loading a troop carrier up and giving it the order �Raid colony for Ilosian Jade�. It swoops in, drops the troops and extracts some of the material then loads up and flies off. You could park your war fleet around the enemy�s colony and demand a shipment or ongoing tribute of Ekarus Meat, or simply request a supply of Dantha Fur from your ally in exchange for a sum of credits. �Trade 500 Dantha Fur for 1000 credits per annum�

I don�t know how difficult this would be to implement, the hardest step to me would seem to be getting the AI to understand and utilize the system intelligently. I think it would add a lot to the game though, especially if you play a mercantile empire based around trade. If you�re the only large-scale supplier of Jakanta Ivory, other empires will have to weigh the benefits of attacking you against losing their supply of ivory.

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 15

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:14:44 AM

Aures

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+1 forsaken111, the details are up for discussion but this is definitely an area I would like to see expanded. I would like a system where there are more options than "trade all our super rare luxuries with them regardless of our own demand" or "trade none of our super rare luxuries with them", inlcluding many of the options you talk about.

And what about pirates? Right now they run protection rackets, real pirates would actually go after the goods freighters carry for their own sake. Being able to raid enemies for their resources and dealing with pirates stealing your resources to sell to your enemies (or buying resources pirates have confiscated off you or your enemies) would add a lot of depth.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:16:37 AM

forsaken1111

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aures

+1 forsaken111, the details are up for discussion but this is definitely an area I would like to see expanded. I would like a system where there are more options than "trade all our super rare luxuries with them regardless of our own demand" or "trade none of our super rare luxuries with them", inlcluding many of the options you talk about.

And what about pirates? Right now they run protection rackets, real pirates would actually go after the goods freighters carry for their own sake. Being able to raid enemies for their resources and dealing with pirates stealing your resources to sell to your enemies (or buying resources pirates have confiscated off you or your enemies) would add a lot of depth.

Indeed, I'd love to be able to hire a pirate faction and direct them to perform raids to acquire a specific resource which I am in short supply of.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:25:14 AM

Aures

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Good idea, but I meant that more generally a pirates goal should be to pirate (ie confiscate goods and ships) rather than blow them up. The decision faced by a freighter running into pirates should be whether to try and escape/fight or give the pirates what they want and dump the cargo overboard for them to pick up. Lots of possibilities there. Not that there wouldn't still be a role for pirates blowing up ships for other reasons (though that is closer to privateering or racketeering than pirating proper) as they currently do.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:27:49 AM

forsaken1111

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Joined: 3/30/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aures

Good idea, but I meant that more generally a pirates goal should be to pirate (ie confiscate goods and ships) rather than blow them up. The decision faced by a freighter running into pirates should be whether to try and escape/fight or give the pirates what they want and dump the cargo overboard for them to pick up. Lots of possibilities there. Not that there wouldn't still be a role for pirates blowing up ships for other reasons (though that is closer to privateering or racketeering than pirating proper) as they currently do.

Perhaps in the future pirate behavior could be tied to their race, so the more aggressive races are more likely to run protection rackets and blow ships up, while a Haakonish pirate gang would board and steal the cargo to sell it to the highest bidder.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:43:38 AM

Aures

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Also a good idea, but I fear something this expansive would probably have to wait for another expansion. Too much other good stuff on the table. Still, that means there is plenty of time to flesh out the idea properly. Until then we will probably have to settle for checking what happens when trade sanctions are in effect as some people have reported it is not terminating trade as completely as you would expect. The best thing we can do is make the game popular enough so Matrix can put some more manpower on it, I'm surprised Elliot is able to field as many requests as he does. Makes my christmas shopping very easy, at least for people I know who like computer games.

I also heard mention in another thread of an idea for an alternative gameplay mode as a pirate. I think that would be cool and the ideas raised here would go a long way to making that viable.

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 9:57:44 AM

forsaken1111

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I would really enjoy alternate play modes of that type.

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Post #: 21

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 10:18:19 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 10:43:59 AM

Bateman1982

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Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

I think this sounds sensible.

Not sure how to get around the last issue you mention in terms of the escort not being allowed to refuel.
Perhaps ships of escort class could be allowed to refuel at other ports with a free trade agreement in place, but refueling any larger military ship would need a MDP.

This would make it advantageous to use escorts to... escort things. As they would be able to refuel where other ships could not.

There may be a better way to do it, just haven't thought of anything else yet.

< Message edited by Bateman1982 -- 12/19/2010 10:45:30 AM >

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 23

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 10:47:09 AM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

I agree with this 100%.

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Post #: 24

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 10:56:20 AM

J HG T

Posts: 1093
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From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline

We concur.

I haven't had any serious problems with this thing. But now that people have come up with great ways to to change it to something more controllable, I have to agree that this issue needs some attentation.

The "Free trade agreement for civilian ships and MDP for military" sounds best and easiest to implement for me.

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Post #: 25

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 12:33:01 PM

Webbco

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I think this is a great idea in theory but in reality, if in a time of war, this might still be a huge burden for your own empire.

What about receiving a "request" from an ally fleet (i.e. one that shares a mutual defence pact with you) when they desire to refuel their ships at one of your colonies?

If you choose to say "no" then your relationship with them could be damaged slightly.

(in reply to J HG T)

Post #: 26

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 12:50:38 PM

Haree78

Posts: 1269
Joined: 5/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

What about independents though? Can anyone fuel from them?

Also these changes that my exploration ships would only be able to fuel through free trade agreements is going to make exploring the galaxy a LOT harder. Perhaps it should be?

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 27

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 1:18:14 PM

forsaken1111

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline

Personally I just double or more my exploration ship's fuel load so they can fly across the galaxy and back if need be.

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Post #: 28

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 4:50:21 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haree78

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?

I like this idea.

How about (if it is possible to discern):

- No pact, no fuel
- Free Trade Agreement: Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are allowed to refuel
- Mutual Defense Pact: The above plus military vessles including whole fleets

The only problem with this could be that this would mean no fuel for escorts that sometimes come with the freighter...

What about independents though? Can anyone fuel from them?

Also these changes that my exploration ships would only be able to fuel through free trade agreements is going to make exploring the galaxy a LOT harder. Perhaps it should be?

How about this: Independent colonies could be treated same as empires with a FTA. So Freighters/exploration ships/construction ships/colony ships are able to refuel, military ships
should never be able to refuel there.

Independent traders should be able to refuel everywhere.

Concerning exploration ships, yes, it makes it harder to explore the whole galaxy but in my opinion this is more realistic. Would you like an explorer, from an empire you don�t have good enough relations with
to sign a FTA, sniffing in your backyard just because he is able to refuel anywhere he likes?

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Post #: 29

RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 11:36:58 PM

elliotg

Posts: 3597
Joined: 9/10/2007
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Thanks for all the feedback above.

For the first ROTS update I'll be implementing the following changes in this area:
- add new setting in Empire Policy screen: "Refuel Other Empires Military Ships"
- this setting will determine when military ships of another empire are allowed to refuel at your colonies or bases
- the three available values for this setting will be: when not at war or have trade sanctions (same as currently), when have Free Trade Agreement, when have Mutual Defense Pact or Protectorate
- the default setting here will be "when have Free Trade Agreement"

This setting only applies to military ships - freighters, mining ships, passenger ships, exploration ships and construction ships will all be able to refuel at any colony or base of an empire you are not at war with or have trade sanctions against (as currently). It is important that the civilian economy is not hampered and that trade happens as easily as possible. For example, it would make little sense if a freighter could transport cargo to a spaceport, but not also refuel there.

Note that independent colonies will always refuel military ships of any empire - they are effectively neutral.

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 30