Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Mobius

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ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
I understand the limitations of the concrete, but even if the 4% figure is correct, it's going to have an impact. In observing the vehicle that I linked I our readers to directly above, it would appear that the material would have a depth of at least 600mm through parts of the horizontal plane. That would constitute the equivalent of 24mm of steel, about an inch.

I have a second hand source that gives the reinforced concrete penetration of the 75mm Pak 50 at 1000m as 181mm. In the same table the armor penetration is 121mm at the same range. That penetration value is the US Aberdeen test value. I don't know where the concrete penetration comes from though. I've never seen a reinforced concrete penetration table with such numbers. So I'm hesitant on accepting it as there is a mild steel penetration of 314mm. Hard to say how mild steel gives less protection than concrete.

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ORIGINAL: Ratzki
I am taking my Mosin-Nagant into the bush to fire off a few rounds in the next couple days, I have a couple concrete pavers that are 1 inch thick, will take a couple shots at them and recover the bullet, and see what happens. Will try a couple different angles with the pavers just to see what happens. I know it is not scientific or anything, but am now rather curious.

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ORIGINAL: Yoozername

The Finns removed the concrete from the StuGs after the war.

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ORIGINAL: Ratzki

Will try a couple different angles with the pavers just to see what happens. I know it is not scientific or anything, but am now rather curious.

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ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

A lack of photographic evidence doesn't really prove anything. Just as a single picture or video proves nothing on the reverse of that.

I can show you hundreds of photos of Shermans both with and without sandbags. Take your pick. So, was it or was it not a normal practice to put sandbags on Shermans? Depends on the time period and location.

I have seen pictures of hundreds of StuG's with and without schurtzen as well. There are pictures out there with StuG's covered in concrete so obviously somebody was doing it. Maybe not the entire German Army. Lot's of localized modifications were made by the Germans. Look at the 21st Panzer Division in Normandy as a prime example of that.

Here's an entire site on nothing but the StuG's.

http://stugiii.com/home.html

Good Hunting.

MR

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If you can't afford a book or two, simply do a web-search for the details.

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ORIGINAL: Stridor

Can one of the modelling boys make a concrete stug (3D model + xml stats) before release?

S.

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ORIGINAL: Mobius

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ORIGINAL: Stridor

Can one of the modelling boys make a concrete stug (3D model + xml stats) before release?

S.

We don't have any idea of what that concrete adds to protection.

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Alterations to the Sturmgeschütz IV
On January 24, 1944, the Inspektor der Artillerie determined that supplementing armor protection by adding concrete had been shown by test firing to be without benefit. It only increased the vehicle weight and framentation effect (on the armor piercing round striking the plate) was less favorable. The Waffenamt was not in favor of concrete for supplemental protection. Even when the assembly firms followed this order, troops in the field sometimes added concrete for extra protection to their armored vehicles.

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ORIGINAL: Mobius

Oh, boy. I hate having to do research on this.
But from the Spielberger book on the Stug.

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Alterations to the Sturmgeschütz IV
On January 24, 1944, the Inspektor der Artillerie determined that supplementing armor protection by adding concrete had been shown by test firing to be without benefit. It only increased the vehicle weight and framentation effect (on the armor piercing round striking the plate) was less favorable. The Waffenamt was not in favor of concrete for supplemental protection. Even when the assembly firms followed this order, troops in the field sometimes added concrete for extra protection to their armored vehicles.

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ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I think I would like to move on with the discussion and focus on the Soviet 76.2mm weapons.  These are the weapons that are most prevalent during the time period of 1942-early 1944 that the StuGs would face.

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But take heart, Old School Cav is here. The WWII-vintage .30-06 M2 AP round, often called Black Tip ammo, launches a 165.7-grain hardened steel alloy FMJ projectile at just over 2,700 feet per second. The old Army small arms cartridge manual says: "Penetration, fired at a 7/8-inch thick homogeneuous armor plate at 100 yards, will not be less than 0.42 inch." That's the minimum. The same manual says the round is good for penetrating a half inch of homgeneous armor plate and 0.3 inches of face-hardened armor plate at 200 yards, and 0.3 and 0.2 inches respectively at 600 yards.

In The Ultimate Sniper, Major John Plaster conducted some informal media tests and found that single rounds of M2 ball AP could, at 100 yards, penetrate 19 inches of sand, 48 inches of timbers, 14 inches of rubble, and 7 inches of concrete. I have an old WWII training film, Infantry Weapons and Their Effects, that clearly shows a soldier with an M1 punching holes through a 4-inch concrete wall at 200 yards. I've personally tried the stuff on stacked railroad tie plates and old farm plow shanks and it went right on through. About 15 years ago (I think I was 8 at the time) we had an old concrete farm silo due for being torn down. I fired several M2 APs from my Garand at a range of fifty yards. On the exterior of the silo, there was a tiny .30-caliber hole with the copper jacket mushroomed out around it. On the interior of the 4-inch concrete wall, the exit wound was spalled out in a shallow dish-shaped crater about 8 inches in diameter. The penetrators themselves, still sharp on the end, were about halfway through the far wall and had to be removed with pliers. During WWII, it was reported that this stuff would go through the German armored halftracks at close range and I've read of a Korean War vet who claimed he could penetrate the light armored gunshields of the Chinese heavy machine guns at ranges of 300-350 yards.

M2 AP loaded ammo and projectiles used to be a dime-a-dozen just a few years ago but now there are getting very hard to find. If you come across some at a gunshow or on the 'net, they might be a wise purchase. There are also still some 7.62x51mm M61 147-grain Armor Piercing projectiles still around from a few sources as well. The manual says it can be used: "against personnel and light armored or unarmored targets, concrete shelters, and similiar bullet-resisting targets." Also identified by a black tip on the projectile, its performance is roughly 10% less than the .30-06 AP.