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Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 5:26:24 PM

spelk

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Following on from my round up of Indie games last Xmas, I thought I'd run a shorter article discussing the five wargames that gamers should consider. This isn't a list I think Wargamers should play, this is a list I think non-wargamers should try. In a vain hope of attracting more gamers to the genre.

Five Wargames you SHOULD play
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=988

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 6:37:16 PM

junk2drive

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It's a short read and pretty straight. Worth a look if you normally don't click on links for fear of a big long essay.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 7:00:25 PM

Hertston

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I haven't played '3' and '2' but from what I've heard of them they are reasonable inclusions. I'd agree with including WitE as well, for the reason stated. The one question I would have is regarding what is probably actually my favourite of the lot, BftB. I'd probably substitute Scourge of War: Gettysburg as a draw for the real-time fans.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 7:52:49 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I have 1,3 and 4, and I must state, that the list in general fails utterly.

Why, well you are targeting the 'non wargamer' right? What would make a non wargamer, into a wargamer, from that list?

I think BBC BA is very entry friendly, but the others, they are totally serious wargames for the most part, and Gary's WitE is so over the top ultimate wargame, it is likely of zero capacity in making a 'non wargamer' into a interested wargamer.

I love the game, I'm just willing to admit it IS what it is. Massively complex.

Command Ops Battles from the Bulge, is additionally a very serious wargamer's wargame.
It has to popular aspect of real time, but the graphics are all about not needing graphically pleasing.

To score a non wargamer, you need something to draw them in, without overwhelming them.

All you will enterain with the games on the list offered, is a person that is already a wargamer.

That, and if you want to grab the attention of non wargamers, you have to go where they live. Maybe if we put more games like BBC BA onto consoles, we might get their attention.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 7:58:54 PM

junk2drive

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I think the hobby will gain from the .99 iPad games that somebody tries and decides to look into the hobby.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 8:20:46 PM

spelk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I have 1,3 and 4, and I must state, that the list in general fails utterly.

Why, well you are targeting the 'non wargamer' right? What would make a non wargamer, into a wargamer, from that list?

I think BBC BA is very entry friendly, but the others, they are totally serious wargames for the most part, and Gary's WitE is so over the top ultimate wargame, it is likely of zero capacity in making a 'non wargamer' into a interested wargamer.

I love the game, I'm just willing to admit it IS what it is. Massively complex.

The introduction text I posted with the link mentions non-wargamer its true, but my intention with the list on my blog is not to highlight gateway games for the mainstream really, but to open the door and peek in at the features of these *real* wargames, and show at how accessible they can be. Obviously WitE isn't going to be the gateway game to wargaming, but I mentioned it, because as a wargamer lightweight myself, I found it provided some layered features that allows even the utter novice to enjoy it on the shallower chit shuffling manoeuvre level. I totally agree that WitE is a monster wargame, and it has so much grognard depth and detail that its not a gateway game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Command Ops Battles from the Bulge, is additionally a very serious wargamer's wargame.
It has to popular aspect of real time, but the graphics are all about not needing graphically pleasing.

As a wargamer lightweight, BftB was one of the first true wargames that I managed to appreciate and understand, and I think its because of the macro-management feature and the real-time progression of the combat that really makes it accessible. Obviously its graphics are there to serve a wargame simulation, but out of all of them its the most approachable, I think, for a novice to wargamer to have a go and enjoy it.

The real gateway games are Battlefield Academy and Field of Glory to some extent, but the elegance of the AI and the RTS feel of BftB won me over. And I've used that as a springboard into the other games, more than I have with BA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
To score a non wargamer, you need something to draw them in, without overwhelming them.
All you will enterain with the games on the list offered, is a person that is already a wargamer.

I think the gamer would have to have an interest in War and conflict in games to enjoy any of the games listed to be honest. I think, the impenetrable walls many strategy gamers come up against in wargames, have doors in them, and it just takes some familiarisation and understanding of the process of playing wargames to take that first step and put your foot in that door. Thats what I was attempting to do with the list. To show the games I feel have a door open to strategy gamers who might be potential wargamers. I'm not trying to convert any Call of Duty fans to turn based chit shuffling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
That, and if you want to grab the attention of non wargamers, you have to go where they live. Maybe if we put more games like BBC BA onto consoles, we might get their attention.

This is true, and Slitherine are trying their best to mainstream some of their wargames, especially with console and handheld releases.

I think I used the term non-wargamer incorrectly in the intro text to be honest, I should have said strategy gamer interested in war :)

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 9:08:19 PM

rowech

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As a newcomer to wargames, I can tell you there's no way I'm buying a game that costs $80 or $60 as my first entry into the hobby. Cost has to be a factor.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 9:13:46 PM

junk2drive

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You signed up for this forum 5 years ago and you're still on the fence?

There are several free games available here. Give one a try and ask for help if you need it.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 9:19:42 PM

V22 Osprey

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My list for a newcomer to wargames?

Steel Panthers(Whether it be SPWAW, WInSPWW2, or WinSPMBT) - SPWAW was my first wargame. It's what started it all for me.
John Tiller's Campaign Series
Advanced Tactics
Any John Tiller game.(His interface is good for newcomers. Panzer Campaigns Market Garden '44 was my very second wargame after SPWAW.)

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 9:23:29 PM

spelk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rowech
As a newcomer to wargames, I can tell you there's no way I'm buying a game that costs $80 or $60 as my first entry into the hobby.� Cost has to be a factor. �

Oh sure, I reckon that takes at least WitE and BftB out of the reckoning. Although in the recent sale BftB was reduced to a more palatable price. Its not really a shopping list as such, more a list of suggestions to keep your eye on :)

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 10:49:42 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I love the game, I'm just willing to admit it IS what it is. Massively complex.

Nobody is NOT 'admitting' it but I, at least, agree that WitE is perfectly accessable to new wargamers and that while that complexity is there it is perfectly possible to grow into the game without being 'overwhelmed'. It's a much better game in that respect than TOAW or Battles in Normandy.

Fancy graphics and simplicity are not necessarily required.. how many folks out there are playing Dwarf Fortress? What probably is needed is some interest in the subject matter of the game.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 10:58:04 PM

jomni

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3 out 5 of those games use sever-based multiplayer.�
This is a standard feature for non-wargames (FPS).
I commend Slitherine / Matrix for bringing it to the realm of wargames.
This will surely be appreciated by the new breed of wargamers (those who never did manual email shuffling).

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/19/2010 11:41:21 PM

GaryChildress

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I have to agree that WitE sounds a bit like a dive into the deep end for a non-wargamer. I would think something a little simpler and more recognizable would make a better introduction, something like one of the Close Combat titles, Commander Europe at War and John Tiller's Campaign Series.

Then maybe a little later, Uncommon Valor, though relatively complex compared to much on the market would be a good introduction into the basic guts of WitP:AE, probably one of the most complex wargames in existence.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 1:47:35 AM

Fallschirmjager

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Uncommon Valor I think would be a good entry level game and at $21 dollars would make an excellent gift.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 4:50:22 AM

rowech

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

You signed up for this forum 5 years ago and you're still on the fence?

There are several free games available here. Give one a try and ask for help if you need it.

I joined when I bought Puresim baseball. I've been off and on the forum here for probably two years or so. I've played games here and there but have yet to find the one game that makes me say I'm a wargamer. It sure as heck seems personality wise I should be a wargamer but having not happened with my time with it, I'm starting to think it's just not for me.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 5:26:53 AM

junk2drive

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Most of the games here are based on history. If you are into history, something should grab you. If not, maybe one of the space games like Distant Worlds or Armada?

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 6:25:34 AM

Zakhal

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Non-wargamers propably wonder why latest call of duty isnt on the list.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 12/20/2010 6:26:35 AM >

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 6:34:14 AM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Non-wargamers propably wonder why latest call of duty isnt on the list.

Agreed. Most(if not all) non-wargames don't even know the difference between a wargame and a game based on war. The average non-wargamer coming across this list is thinking game based on war rather than a simulation.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 11:51:59 AM

Hertston

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If cost is a major factor for our wannabee wargamers, I see Gamersgate are selling Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943 at 70% off. Excellent game.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 12:45:28 PM

bairdlander2

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Almost every time I say I enjoy strategy wargames to freinds or co-workers they always say "You mean like Starcraft?".

As for WitE being too "grognard" or complex for the casuel user,I dont think it is.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 5:55:42 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I have NEVER been able to comprehend the argument over price.

I don't play console games, but I DO know what they cost to buy new.

And the prices are not some magical 40 or 50 bucks in some magical frequent manner either.

My son requested adding Starcraft 2 to his collection via Santa. That game +taxes, is NOT 40 or 50 bucks. It will cost me as much as just about any real wargame will when I add taxes. Might be off by 5 bucks, maybe 10, but nitpicking about 5 bucks? That sort of crap is what I am used to hearing from 13 year olds on console gaming forums. 5 bucks to them, means the same as 50 bucks means to me.

Are wargamers whining that a wargame of absolute rock solid value, costing 80 bucks, is too expensive, no better than a whiny 13 year old? And all because you can get yesterdays crappy game on sale in a sale bin for 10 bucks?]

Every now and then, I encounter GI Combat on a shelf, covered in dust, with a 10 dollar sticker on it. It's not worth 10 cents. And measuring a game that IS worth 80 bucks, against worthless crap, well it's the defense of an idiot. Ya that is truly Les talking here, I don't mind saying it like I see it. I've no qualms labeling cheep buggers as just that.

You might not 'like' the design, but a game IS worth what it is worth, if it is at least considered a good game by the fan base. I'm no fan of 3d real time, but I don't think I'll be getting any argument from the 3d real time gamer base, that GI Combat, and every incarnation of it, was pure crap. And is NOT of any use as the basis of pricing out a game that IS great.

It's great that BBC BA was priced at 40 bucks. Of course it's great. I'm not afraid to say, it looks like it might have been less brain strain than WitE though.
Great games do not NEED to be monster games to be great though.
Sometimes you CAN buy a great game, and not suffer wallet fatigue.
But it shouldn't be used as a means to set prices for everything.

There's a good reason it costs less to buy even the most high tech bicycle than even a mediocre car. One is easier to make than the other. Best bike I have ever owned, would today be worth in the region of 800 bucks. Forget getting even the worst jalopy for 800.

Where a game is played can factor in to the price.
Cost me as much to buy Commander Europe at War for PC as it did for my Nintendo DS copy.
Generally speaking, just about any DS game will cost me 35 to 40 bucks.
You can find some fun titles for 20 bucks occasionally.
Those games are not cheaper for any magical reason, they are just normally less magnitude.

I have often thought, maybe we could have more wargames on the market, if more wargamers were more willing to get more wargames offered with less obsession with the wargame being all inclusive all encompassing with not one iota of the war left out.
I don't care for John's limited activations, but, his idea of no editor, and focusing on specific battles is his way of keeping open the option to make sales.
He could have just released a game akin to TOAW where every last one of his Panzer Campaigns for instance was a single purchase program that just had a lot of battles in it.
But he only gets one sale.

Would you begrudge him 100 bucks if the game was every single Panzer Campaign in one release? Damn right you would, you'd be all for telling him he was insane if he thought anyone would pay 100 bucks for one stupid wargame.
Yet all of his Panzer Campaigns added together as separate purcases is worth several hundred dollars instead. Ad everyone loves his games.

Price is not the barrier some need to claim it to be.
I see console gamers buying expensive console titles all the time. Some are of course clever enough to hold out for a used copy for that small price reduction (yes it is indeed small).
The only reason most console gamers are not wargamers, is no one is trying to sell them wargames much.
I laugh with the retailer most times I visit. 'Can I help you?' 'No, just confirming that there are still no wargames for console' :)

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/20/2010 11:33:47 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I have NEVER been able to comprehend the argument over price.

Enough with you chastising "PAYING" costumers

Not everyone here has the tax payers pick up the bill's .........

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 3:26:01 AM

hgilmer3

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I like Call of Duty. I like most type games except stuff like Rock Hero or Sim City. You just have to understand what they are about. CoD for WW2 was fun for me and I still play through them.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 2:37:50 PM

SlickWilhelm

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I think that the best way to grow new wargamers is through lighter fare, like Battlefield Academy and World of Tanks. Once you whet their interest in the different vehicles, equipment, etc, they will on their own accord seek out other wargames and discover what is fun to them.

My 11 yr old son is a perfect example. He had no interest in wargames until he saw me playing BA. Now he's into Tiger tanks, so much so that he's seeking out documentaries on them, reading about them and is trying to figure out how to survive in World of Tanks in order to get a Tiger.

When I think back to my own interest in war and gaming in general, it was at about the same time in life. I don't think you're going to get many adult converts to wargaming, although I hope I'm wrong.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 2:51:50 PM

junk2drive

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I think you have to have an interest in history to get into war games that aren't just blow stuff up games. This seems to come from the parents interest in history passing down to the children. Not always of course. A lot of us baby boomers are WWII gamers because it was recent history in our youth and you could ask people about the war and they still remembered the details.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 8:37:49 PM

V22 Osprey

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I've been able to get a few people to play wargames, but they were never hooked. I can also say with confidence that it is impossible to switch over someone who's only known Call of Duty all his life. The Patience and strategically thinking have to be set early on. A person who only knows Call of Duty will only try a game unless it has fancy graphics and instant action. Wargamers must be created while their young or I would say all is lost. The simple fact that in most wargames you don't even see the actual men let alone any of the action means it takes a special breed.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 12/21/2010 8:39:07 PM >

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 11:31:41 PM

ilovestrategy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I've been able to get a few people to play wargames, but they were never hooked. I can also say with confidence that it is impossible to switch over someone who's only known Call of Duty all his life. The Patience and strategically thinking have to be set early on. A person who only knows Call of Duty will only try a game unless it has fancy graphics and instant action. Wargamers must be created while their young or I would say all is lost. The simple fact that in most wargames you don't even see the actual men let alone any of the action means it takes a special breed.

This is pretty much me. I grew up playing war board games with counters every where with strange symbols and numbers meaning men, ships, tanks and such with numbers beside them telling the strength and defense. For me, a PC wargame is an extension of that so when I see an actual picture of the ship in action it's like a treat for me, not a requirement. You are right, we are a special breed.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/21/2010 11:38:12 PM

ilovestrategy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I have NEVER been able to comprehend the argument over price.

I am a school custodian supporting a wife and paying for my daughters senior year in high school. If it wasn't for a member of this forum being kind enough so sell me his used copy of WiTP for a very reduced price I would have never played it. Another member gave me his copy of Uncommon Valor a couple of years ago for free. I saved up a month in advance earlier this year to buy Distant Worlds. I struggle everyday. I'm not sure I can afford any of the great deals Matrix has for Xmas.

So yes, price is a huge deal for me.

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/22/2010 1:30:49 AM

hgilmer3

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I agree with that. I have liked a wide variety of games. I have a friend that when Red Baron came out or the Mon key Island games, he was very interested. Then I showed him War in Russia and he just couldn't comprehend why the "graphics were so bad!"

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RE: Five Wargames you SHOULD play - 12/22/2010 2:14:52 AM

Wargamer74

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I'm somewhat of a newcomer to the wargaming genre. Go ahead and laugh but my first game that I got into was the Axis&Allies boardgame, not really a true wargame but after doing my research into WWII the game began to seriously annoy me at how fake it was. Then I discovered Gary Grigsby's World at War and found the game to be a great introduction to real wargaming without being to intimidating with a million rules. After that was Gary's AWD and now I just bought WWII Time of Wrath.

Maybe I'm getting older but I find the 2D games to be much better and realistic over the fancy high end 3D games anyday. So yes older people can be converted to war games

But I have to admit some of the games on here like War In the East looks so massive it would probably take me a year to learn how to play.

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