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I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:04:34 PM

fsp

Posts: 77
Joined: 11/22/2010
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It is hard to write this as I don't want to bash the game. Quite the contrary. I still think it is an outstanding and brilliant game that is fully worth the money asked for.
I just don't want to play it anymore. Why am I posting? I hope that someone can tell me that I am mistaken with what I am thinking or telling me how I can improve so I can again enjoy the game.

Here is my issue. I have played 11 turns in the German Grand campaign now on normal and I don't think I will be able to ever take Moscow or win this game. This bugs me. To me, it kind of seems moot to play, if I don't even have a chance of winning the game. I don't have to win to enjoy myself. But I have to have a chance.
In my game so far, I have had a couple of good encirclements in the first two to three turns, but no big ones thereafter. I will probably fall short of taking Leningrad, and I will fall short of taking Moscow. I will not make the historical advance in the South, but that is maybe because I started out too timid there.
The problem is that I do not know what I could have done any better. I tried forming pockets in turns 4-11, but most of the times just failed to close the pocket by one or two hexes. The AI then withdrew. I find it incredibly hard to pull off good encirclements and destroy Soviet troops. So I don't really know what I could have done better and how to improve in future games. I am not saying I played perfect, far from that, I just don't know what to do. I am lacking three to four infantry armies to really pull it off I think :-)
It now looks like I will get destroyed in winter and then will not stand a chance to achieve anything in summer 1942 but a token offense.
I like the challenge of playing a good AI, but I also don't like the fact that it cheats. I can live with the AI having no fog of war. I can live with the AI getting a production bonus. But I hate it when the same rules regarding movement, ZOCs etc. don't apply to the AI. I had this huge pocket forming near Smolensk and felt this was really going to help me make my way towards Moscow. It was roughly the form of a rectangle, around 4-5 hexes high and 8-9 hexes wide, enclosing around 50 Soviet divisions. I could not fully close the pocket, I left a opening of two hexes at the very top. Still, I was pretty sure that due to ZOC restrictions, around 60-70 % of the troops in the encirclement would NOT be able to escape and I could close the pocket next turn. Come next turn, the entire bulge, which had just a tiny bottle neck as escape route, was totally cleared out. That was a huge bummer to me. I know it is hard to strike a balance between making an AI competitive and not having it cheat. I really appreciate the hard work that obviously went into that AI. But things like that put me off to be honest. Would it be way too easy for the human player if the AI did not get to cheat in such a way? Or am I missing something here?

Also, so far I don't seem to like the design decision to have all Soviet divisions killed until December 1941 just return for free. It seems kind of pointless to kill them. As a German player, would it not make more sense to keep them routed and keep sending them over the map again and again?

Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

Post #: 1

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:18:49 PM

kuancmdr

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/21/2010
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IF this is your first try at the game ...
Right now ... One should be trying to see what works and what doesn't ...

I haven't gotten the game ... yet ...
I'm reading the other threads to keep me inform...
To get me ready or at least half-way decent so that the AI doesn't totally kick my rookie carcass' arse...

To me ... again ...
playing a strategic game at this scale is to see what will work or doesn't work ...

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Post #: 2

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:19:36 PM

Iron Duke

Posts: 529
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: UK
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Hi fsp

Did you play any of the road to.... scenarios , they are good training aids to practice the opening moves and creating pockets of soviet units.

Ive had the game since day one and don't intend to start a campaign untill i feel i.ve a good grip on all the 'parts' that make the 'whole' game such as airwar,logistics ,refit and railrepair etc.

But don't give up

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(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 3

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:23:43 PM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp

Here is my issue. I have played 11 turns in the German Grand campaign now on normal and I don't think I will be able to ever take Moscow or win this game. This bugs me.

Read the manual 4 times.

Begin with the short scenario and work up to the longest scenario.

By the time you return to the grand campaign you will understand the game mechanics a lot better and cut through the Soviets.

In Jan 1942, the real Germans were confident of victory and they knew the game mechanics

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 4

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:26:27 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

I think you want everything and NOW

You should be patient. All of us (except the testers) are STARTING to play, understand, grasp this game too. We are a bunch of noobs. I will not try to convince you though. You're old enough

Anyway, do NOT expect the Germans to win... just like the Japanese CANNOT win in WitP. They messed with the wrong guys, that's all

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Post #: 5

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:30:02 PM

jjdenver

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I'd say play the scenarios to get more practice. Play on easy to make it easier. Play the Soviets on Easy against the Germans to see how the AI does things. Keep practicing to get better.

And for pockets, sometimes so far during my play it's better to go for a smaller pocket that I'm sure I can form than a big one that is easy to break or that I can't quite close so aim for some smaller pockets until your skill increases.

Just keep practising. Or give up. It's your choice.

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Post #: 6

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:35:29 PM

Naughteous Maximus

Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
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Look, you have to get use to playing the game. I will have to play several times before I get the complete hang of things. I think this game is one of the best and it has alot of potential. Instead of playing the invasion part, which can be daunting; I would recommend playing the defensive instead of the offensive. It can be more of a challenge yet fun too! I, myself am playing the '43-45 Campaign as the Germans. I did not attack at kursk, instead I shortened my front where I could, using terrain as an advantage, and create reserves to deal with any soviet attacks. Great stuff!

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 7

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:35:53 PM

Sheytan

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Actually I disagree. You should have a chance to win if you play well. You CAN win playing WITP AE as Japan, and you can win in this game as the Germans. It all depends on how WELL you play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

I think you want everything and NOW You should be patient. All of us (except the testers) are STARTING to play, understand, grasp this game too. We are a bunch of noobs. I will not try to convince you though. You're old enough

Anyway, do NOT expect the Germans to win... just like the Japanese CANNOT win in WitP. They messed with the wrong guys, that's all

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Post #: 8

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:40:22 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Actually I disagree. You should have a chance to win if you play well. You CAN win playing WITP AE as Japan, and you can win in this game as the Germans. It all depends on how WELL you play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

I think you want everything and NOW You should be patient. All of us (except the testers) are STARTING to play, understand, grasp this game too. We are a bunch of noobs. I will not try to convince you though. You're old enough

Anyway, do NOT expect the Germans to win... just like the Japanese CANNOT win in WitP. They messed with the wrong guys, that's all

Sheytan, playing against �ber incompetent players does not count

I ALWAYS assume (a mark of respect) most players are competent

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Post #: 9

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:43:50 PM

MrLongleg

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I think it is an excellent sign that you are a bit frustrated because it shows the AI is doing a decent job. I played Road to Minsk ending with a draw on try number 2. Then I tried Road to Smolensk twice - first time Major Soviet victory (could not take Smolensk). On try no. 2 I was able to take Smolensk and even pocket and destroy 20 divisios South West of Smolensk - still minor Soviet victory, because I could not take one of the cities further East.

What I learned is that speed is decisive. If you do not take Vitebsk and cross the Dnepr on turn 4 the Russian AI will form a strong defense line and then your progress will become very slow. I enjoy the challenge. I think it is to be expected that you cannot win a game of this level of complexity until you master the details.

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Post #: 10

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:43:52 PM

Mehring

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I'd persevere and see what happens. I used my first game to clear up a lot of rules understanding glitches and returned to the manual before starting a second. I wouldn't expect to win first time with such a demanding game system. Bugs and design flaws aside, it's the detail of the system that makes it worth trying to master, in my view. Into my second attempt and in mid October I'm 5 hexes from Moscow 3 from Leningrad, into the Crimea and well east of Dnepropetrovsk. A lot better than the first attempt.

Don't be put off by the 5 deep Russian defences. If you prepare for your attack, you can break through and exploit to form pockets.

(in reply to jjdenver)

Post #: 11

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:49:36 PM

siRkid

Posts: 6650
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From: Orland FL
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Try and use your inf to open up holes and whenever feasible use hasty attacks. Don't be afraid to break down your units to close off a gap. Plan out your rail repair and try to always keep your units in command range. You have to cause as many casualties as possible during the first 5 or 6 turns so it's worth it to surround units and wait until the next turn to force them to surrender. In these pockets you can use your weakest nits in most cases and save you strongest for the next encirclement. Plan for winter by building fortifications in key points and stopping soon enough to dig in and repair before the blizzard hits. I've been playing for over a year and just last night I came up with some new ideas. Just keep at it.

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Post #: 12

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:50:08 PM

kirkgregerson

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yeah... what they all said plus...

Don't expect to win first time without learning games subtleties. Much to learn, especially if you want to win.

In fact, you should be happy the AI won. If the first time I played the AI it was easy, the game would probably be on the shelf if not playing pbem.

I think what you encountered was normal and positive. Buck up little camper, give it another shot. Trying again is a luxury the Wehrmacht did not have.

(in reply to Mehring)

Post #: 13

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 9:58:13 PM

F�nrik St�l

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
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Why not try playing as the Soviets? I hear it's possible to do that.

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Post #: 14

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 10:00:46 PM

KarlXII

Posts: 259
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From: Stockholm
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What I mostly react to while reading OP:s post is the statement that the AI is cheating to evade the pockets by ignoring ZOCs etc.

I didn�t think the AI was cheating at all or get any bonuses in normal difficulty. Have I missed something ? What do you others say ?
How could pockets with so many divisions all dissappear through a 2 hex wide gap where ZOC is maintained ?

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Post #: 15

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 10:16:08 PM

Zoetermeer

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Karlxii is right - the real problem is that huge numbers of soviet units can escape out of seemingly impossible situations. This is by far the most annoying and unrealistic component of gameplay, IMO.

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Post #: 16

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 10:24:00 PM

ComradeP

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The AI magic moves from pocket are not supposed to happen. We've debated about those instances on the tester forum too, and it isn't entirely clear what's happening. Some of the moves can be explained through the motorization mechanic, but some can't. I haven't seen many magic moves myself, but I understand that they're annoying.

Human players can't do that, though.

Also: it's extremely unlikely that the Axis get an automatic victory, just like that's unlikely in WitP:AE. The Axis can still win by not losing, though and get a minor victory based on the amount of Soviet territory they control when the game ends.

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Post #: 17

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 10:33:41 PM

notenome

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I've had several loose encirclements that the AI has not managed to break out of, haven't come up against any magic except for the hordes the AI produces at 110 dificulty.

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Post #: 18

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 10:37:32 PM

Titanwarrior89

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You can't always have it now-it takes time to learn the system/tactics. Most of us are struggling but thats the way I want it. So play on easy if you can't win on normal......Good luck

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Post #: 19

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:16:16 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
Here is my issue. I have played 11 turns in the German Grand campaign now on normal and I don't think I will be able to ever take Moscow or win this game. This bugs me. To me, it kind of seems moot to play, if I don't even have a chance of winning the game. I don't have to win to enjoy myself. But I have to have a chance.

Giving up 11 turns into your first grand campaigns strikes me as a bit premature. The game adapts itself to many playstyles and difficulty levels. You have quite a few tools at your disposal to make your side stronger and the enemy weaker until you find a good balance for you.

You _will_ improve with more practice, it's inevitable. However, you can make that process less frustrating for you by using the game settings to adjust the difficulty now.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 20

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:21:07 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

The AI magic moves from pocket are not supposed to happen. We've debated about those instances on the tester forum too, and it isn't entirely clear what's happening. Some of the moves can be explained through the motorization mechanic, but some can't. I haven't seen many magic moves myself, but I understand that they're annoying.

Human players can't do that, though.

Also: it's extremely unlikely that the Axis get an automatic victory, just like that's unlikely in WitP:AE. The Axis can still win by not losing, though and get a minor victory based on the amount of Soviet territory they control when the game ends.

I surrounded the Slovakian fast division completely no gaps nothing, I attacked and it routed out of it. I believe it has happened other times without attacks and the unit reappeared, thought it was my imagination until now.

(in reply to notenome)

Post #: 21

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:21:52 PM

JudgeDredd

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Funniest post ever...11 turns in to a 240+ turn game and I'm giving up 'cos I can't win? Sorry - but how does one actually know that 11 turns in to 240 turns?

So a couple of things have pissed you off and you're downbeat about it - I can accept that as an excuse to give up if that's how you feel - but to suggest there is no way to win when you are less than 5% into the game is remarkable forsight!

You say you can't see what you can do differently - there are a massive number of things you can do differently - I can't specify them because I don't know what you've done - but the one thing you did do, someone already suggested that one thing you can do - make smaller pockets.

Seriously - I doubt there is any real advice anyone can give you so early on if you are downbeat now. And if you are that downbeat now after 11 turns, wait 'till winter gets a grip of your troops!

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Post #: 22

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:25:30 PM

JudgeDredd

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By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

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Post #: 23

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:26:56 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
I surrounded the Slovakian fast division completely no gaps nothing, I attacked and it routed out of it. I believe it has happened other times without attacks and the unit reappeared, thought it was my imagination until now.

If it was not encircled for a full turn and isolated, then that is by design.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

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Post #: 24

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/21/2010 11:30:22 PM

JudgeDredd

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As Erik stated - when you encircle, you have to NOT attack that turn - leave the unit encircled for a turn before attacking. If you attack on the turn you encircle, they will rout out....leave them a turn then attack and BAM...surrendered

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Post #: 25

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:08:34 AM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

As Erik stated - when you encircle, you have to NOT attack that turn - leave the unit encircled for a turn before attacking. If you attack on the turn you encircle, they will rout out....leave them a turn then attack and BAM...surrendered

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines?

Henri

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 26

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:13:12 AM

ComradeP

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That issue has come up a number of times and it really depends on how you view the turn length and the effect of having weekly turns on operations. A pocket isn't really a pocket in the first week, it represents an isolated area but not an area where the flanks are sufficiently protected to make sure not units get out if they try to. That takes until the next turn.

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Post #: 27

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:20:23 AM

hgilmer3

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Buck up soldier!! I couldn't win on WiR the first few times, either. What would Rommel say? WHAT WOULD PATTON SAY?

(This is all said in the most supporting manner

)

I fully expect to get soundly chastised on my first GC. It took me 8 tries before I beat Road to Minsk. I was hating life. Then I won!

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Post #: 28

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:49:59 AM

jomni

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AI is too good for you?� Hehe.� Germany is doomed historically anyway and there is only a slim chance of changing that.� It's not about winning or losing but it's the experience that counts.� Just keep playing and you might just discover nice little strategies. Treat each theater as a separate campaign and savor your little victories (no matter if the whole campaing is going down the drain).� It's the same thing in WITP AE where Japan is doomed to lose the game but there are a lot of Japan fanboys playing and enjoying.

If you want to win, why not start playing as Russians? I'm pretty sure it is an enjoyable and rewarding experience.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/22/2010 12:52:18 AM >

(in reply to hgilmer3)

Post #: 29

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:54:55 AM

Tophat1815

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I'm starting turn 3 in GC as the Russian and wishing I could get my boys out of some pockets! Play a human pbem,none of us know the game that well now and kick his Bolshevik butt! Great way to restore your confidence short term,course if you don't win in 41' don't cry when he burns Berlin down around your ears........