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PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 11:52:14 AM   
Trekkie


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Status: offline 		Playing full campaign as allies against AI, I experienced classic PH attack on Dec 7th leaving 3 BBs sunk and other 5 badly damaged. I´ve sent several ASW TFs to hunt enemy subs and my remaining fighters prepared for the next strike. On Dec 8th, it really came as expected - but japs aimed those ASW TFs and completely ignored PH with BBs waiting for their coup de grace!Strike after strike they hit my PCs, DDs etc...No single jap plane tried to attack PH itself.And now I have to ask:is this general issue that AI will choose naval attack against port attack no matter what kind of ships are anchored there?Is it just a coincidence?Is there any general routine for AI concerning target picking?

_____________________________

"One hawk chases down many crows" - 313th (Czechoslovak) RAF squadron motto
Post #: 1
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 12:22:14 PM   
mg62


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I had the same thing occur in my game.  KB stuck arround and hit Pearl & my DD TF's that I sent out.  I think the AI's decision to choose targets, at sea TF's or in port ships may be somewhat variable.  I'm sure someone more knowledgable can comment on their experiences. 

In my game the KB split between my at sea TF's and the port ships; crunched most of my BB's.  Check out the following recent thread in the war room:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658052

(in reply to Trekkie)
Post #: 2
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 12:39:08 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		I play alot against the AI and have started at least 20 different games of various scenarios.

I have seen it go many ways. It does appear to be variable, but the AI seems to give a lot of weight to naval attacks when making choices.

If I am not assuming a second day of strikes will not occur then I will form the various ASW TFs necessary to start working on the job of clearing the area of subs.

If I am assuming a second day of strikes then I will clear Pearl of every thing that floats with orders to flee the area at high speed.

Sometimes I choose the aggressive route and sorty against the KB.

It's a guessing game I have played a number of times with different results every time.

As long as you are playing against the AI you might want to have a go at a surface action against the KB. It can be a lot of fun if it comes off.

I just restarted scenario #10 and had only one CA, three CLs and a slew of Destroyers and PT boats to sorty with. I got lucky and chose the right path to intercept. The Minneapolis was superb, putting an 8" shell into Hiryu, Soryu and THREE 8"ers into Kaga while deftly avoiding 14" shells from Kirishima and 18" ers from Musashi (I'm playing Iron Man). I lost two destroyers and two PT boats. The action didn't sink any carriers but it affected what the KB did at Wake on the way home and was a boat load of fun.


Here it is:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 177,101, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Shell hits 3
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 1, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 1
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 2
BB Musashi
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CL Abukuma
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranui
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi
CA Adatara

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 1
CL Detroit
CL Helena
CL Phoenix
DD Bagley, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Blue
DD Helm, Shell hits 2
DD Mugford, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 11,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Zuikaku at 11,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Shokaku at 11,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CV Shokaku at 11,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 11,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages DD Ralph Talbot at 11,000 yards
DD Mugford engages CV Kaga at 11,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Mugford at 11,000 yards
DD Urakaze engages DD Jarvis at 11,000 yards
DD Blue engages DD Akigumo at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Akagi at 10,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CV Soryu at 10,000 yards
DD Henley engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Mugford engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
CA Adatara engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
DD Blue engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
CA Tone engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Henley at 10,000 yards
DD Mugford sunk by DD Tanikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Henley engages CV Zuikaku at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Shokaku at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Hiryu at 10,000 yards
DD Henley engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages BB Kirishima at 10,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CA Adatara at 10,000 yards
DD Bagley engages CV Akagi at 10,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Ralph Talbot at 10,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Patterson at 10,000 yards
CA Tone engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages CV Zuikaku at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Shokaku at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Soryu at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Hiryu at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Henley at 10,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
DD Helm engages BB Hiei at 10,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Blue at 10,000 yards
CA Tone engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Jarvis at 10,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Tanikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Shiranui at 10,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Kagero at 10,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Henley at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 8,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Soryu at 8,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Hiryu at 8,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Patterson at 8,000 yards
DD Henley engages DD Hamakaze at 8,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CA Minneapolis at 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Minneapolis at 8,000 yards
CA Adatara engages DD Blue at 8,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages DD Bagley at 8,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA Minneapolis at 8,000 yards
DD Bagley engages DD Tanikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Bagley engages DD Isokaze at 8,000 yards
DD Kagero engages DD Blue at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages CV Zuikaku at 10,000 yards
CL Helena engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Bagley engages CV Hiryu at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CV Kaga at 10,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Henley at 10,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD Helm at 10,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Blue at 10,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CA Chikuma at 10,000 yards
CA Minneapolis engages CA Tone at 10,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA Minneapolis at 10,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Bagley at 10,000 yards
DD Helm engages DD Tanikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Henley engages DD Hamakaze at 10,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 177,100, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, on fire
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
BB Musashi, Shell hits 1
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CL Abukuma
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranui
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi
CA Adatara

Allied Ships
DD Cummings, Shell hits 1
DD Case
DD Conyngham, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Reid, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Allen
DD Chew
DD Schley, Shell hits 1
DD Ward



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 22,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Cummings at 12,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages DD Reid at 12,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages DD Reid at 12,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Reid at 12,000 yards
DD Shiranui engages DD Reid at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
DD Reid engages CV Zuikaku at 9,000 yards
DD Reid engages CV Kaga at 9,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Kasumi at 9,000 yards
DD Cummings engages DD Arare at 9,000 yards
DD Reid engages CA Adatara at 9,000 yards
CA Tone engages DD Reid at 9,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Cummings at 9,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Schley at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
DD Ward engages DD Kasumi at 8,000 yards
DD Reid engages CV Zuikaku at 8,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Chew at 8,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Reid at 8,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Reid at 8,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Cummings at 8,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Reid at 8,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Reid at 8,000 yards
DD Ward engages CV Akagi at 8,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Schley at 8,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages CV Soryu at 8,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages CV Kaga at 8,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
CA Tone engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Schley at 8,000 yards
DD Schley engages DD Tanikaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages CV Akagi at 11,000 yards
DD Kasumi engages DD Schley at 11,000 yards
DD Chew engages CV Shokaku at 11,000 yards
DD Arare engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Kasumi at 11,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Cummings at 11,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
CA Tone engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Kasumi at 11,000 yards
DD Tanikaze engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
DD Hamakaze engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
DD Urakaze engages DD Case at 11,000 yards
DD Ward engages DD Isokaze at 11,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Kagero at 11,000 yards
DD Akigumo engages DD Cummings at 11,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 177,100, Range 17,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, on fire
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
BB Musashi
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CL Abukuma
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranui
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi
CA Adatara

Allied Ships
PT-20, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT-21
PT-22
PT-23, Shell hits 1, and is sunk



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range increases to 16,000 yards...
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
Range increases to 20,000 yards...
Range increases to 21,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Both TF attempt to withdraw!
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
CV Akagi , CV Zuikaku , CV Shokaku ,
CV Soryu , CV Hiryu , CV Kaga screened from combat
- escorted by DD Tanikaze , DD Shiranui , DD Isokaze ,
DD Akigumo
PT-23 sunk by BB Hiei at 17,000 yards
PT-20 sunk by DD Hamakaze at 17,000 yards
Task forces break off...


p.s. Don't forget to put an aggresive admiral like Rockwell in command of your principal SAG.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 12/22/2010 12:42:42 PM >

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to mg62)
Post #: 3
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 1:38:41 PM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline 		Maybe it is just the way I play, but I'd rather the INJ finish off the wrecked BBs rather than take out my DDs. I'm always short of DDs at the beginning, and your BBs aren't going to be around for a while and slow BBs aren't that useful for the allies early in the war anyway.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 2:03:55 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekkie

Playing full campaign as allies against AI, I experienced classic PH attack on Dec 7th leaving 3 BBs sunk and other 5 badly damaged. I´ve sent several ASW TFs to hunt enemy subs and my remaining fighters prepared for the next strike. On Dec 8th, it really came as expected - but japs aimed those ASW TFs and completely ignored PH with BBs waiting for their coup de grace!Strike after strike they hit my PCs, DDs etc...No single jap plane tried to attack PH itself.And now I have to ask:is this general issue that AI will choose naval attack against port attack no matter what kind of ships are anchored there?Is it just a coincidence?Is there any general routine for AI concerning target picking?


The AI is in fact just an AI, it does indeed do some strange things. The only game I played vs the AI was a year ago, and somewhere around 1/43 the AI decides to send the KB to Pearl Harbor where 6 carriers and over 750 planes were waiting. Although its a great tool for learning AE, once you get the basics down then the AI isn't much of a challange unless you play historically.

I do have one AI game going on against the allies, I also have a PBEM game going as japanese, and using my AI game to test ideas out while I copy everything from my PBEM to my AI game so I can help myself plan in the spare time.

So far it works out great, I can only say without my AI game i'd never taken Ceylon or Northern NZ.


_____________________________

ASUS Maximus IV Extreme-Z Intel Core I7 2800k Corsair Hydro Heatsink Corsair Vengeance DD3 24GB EVGA GTX 580 Western Digital 1.5TB Raid 0 Windows 7

(in reply to Trekkie)
Post #: 5
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 2:30:32 PM   
Trekkie


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Status: offline 		OK, but PH strike can cause much more damage than that to BBs. Nevertheless,I am not interested in it just because it gave me advantage/disadvantage in this particular game but rather in general. For my personal purposes I will interpret it as a mistake of japanese recon which reported some DD as a CV on open sea and Nagumo ordered to attack them .

_____________________________

"One hawk chases down many crows" - 313th (Czechoslovak) RAF squadron motto

(in reply to brian800000)
Post #: 6
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 5:42:36 PM   
mg62


Posts: 91
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Very true regarding shortage of DD's. With the AI more agressive with subs than in WitP, you do need escorts for your convoys.

(in reply to brian800000)
Post #: 7
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 7:08:36 PM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekkie

OK, but PH strike can cause much more damage than that to BBs. Nevertheless,I am not interested in it just because it gave me advantage/disadvantage in this particular game but rather in general. For my personal purposes I will interpret it as a mistake of japanese recon which reported some DD as a CV on open sea and Nagumo ordered to attack them .


This is the way I see it, there are 3 things of value at PH: 1) LCUs, 2) aircraft, and 3) ships.

LCUs won't be damaged. Aircraft can be destroyed, but I'm more than happy to trade punches with the KB airforce to thin their numbers of crack pilots.

The risk is to your ships. The only non-warships that are really critical are your tankers, and they aren't at PH with an exception or two. Your operations in the first few months aren't going to be significantly effected by support ships sunk at PH.

For you standard warships, you will eventually get lots of them. But for the first 6 months of the war, the losses can really hurt. Your BBs are almost certainly out of the fight after the first day. So the risk is to your cruisers and destroyers. And depending on how you use them, I think your forces are lacking destroyers, but loaded with crusiers. I've got some cruisers parked because I don't want to send them out without at least a couple destroyers. Otherwise, they seem to be catnip for torpedos (either sub or DD based).

If you sink my cruisers (and battleships for that matter), I won't be happy, but the first 6 months aren't going to change much. But for every couple destroyers you sink, that is an unescorted convoy, or one less surface raiding fleet, or one less fleet defending against surface raiders.

(in reply to Trekkie)
Post #: 8
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 7:53:47 PM   
Trekkie


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

Aircraft can be destroyed, but I'm more than happy to trade punches with the KB airforce to thin their numbers of crack pilots.



No doubt about it. In my case - when japs launched several strikes against my ASW TFs instead of PH - I´ve got these numbers:

My losses: 2 Wildcats, 7 Mohawks, 7 Warhawks, 1 P-26 - all destroyed
Japanese losses: 16 Kates, 1 Val - destroyed and 58 Kates, 15 Vals, 1 Zero - damaged

I suppose that I can´t take that number of damaged planes too seriously (however, I don´t have an experience with fog of war in AE so far) but I think that his tactics of several smaller strikes on TFs on open sea (with smaller fighter cover) gave my CAP better chances than they would get in case of one huge raid over PH. In that case I would expect those numbers of Zeros to whip my CAP out of the skies at a moment...



_____________________________

"One hawk chases down many crows" - 313th (Czechoslovak) RAF squadron motto

(in reply to brian800000)
Post #: 9
RE: PH attack - 2nd day - 12/22/2010 10:58:30 PM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		I've experienced similar results. Now when I start that first day I put every fighter I can in the air(100% CAP)and disband any TF and scatter anything at sea. The Japanese navy is just too strong to confront. If they attack on day two the fighters on patrol do enough damage to discourage them. That's been my experience.

(in reply to Trekkie)
Post #: 10
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