bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Tech Support >> bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs

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bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 4:30:27 AM

adecoy95
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so i have traded for some race specific techs, but they do not show up for the latest designs, for example, i have the ghost ECM from an ally, and i have some low tech ECMs from research... the ghost is clearly superior, but its not the "latest" design, according to the design screen, so it is never used when upgrading

Post #: 1

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 4:42:20 AM

Krob
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I wouldn't call this a bug. It's always been like this. And it's not just that you might want to use a similar item that's equivalent, e.g. You're researching efficient engines and you retire a bunch of salvaged warships and exceed your efficient tech in the power field. Now all your ships are equipping powerful engines rather than efficient. My suggestion in the wish list, is to let us set which item/line is the upgrade standard. I'd rather manage a check-box on the research screen from time to time, than have to remove and readd 10 fuel tanks to all of my designs, etc.

K

(in reply to adecoy95)

Post #: 2

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 5:18:15 AM

adecoy95
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you wouldent call a 45% countermeasure being replaced by a 20% countermeasure a bug? what would you call it then

you are right that in alot of situations there are "sidegrades" that have bonuses in one field or another, and i agree that all the choices should be in the design screen, instead of just the one that cost the most research

(in reply to Krob)

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RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 5:21:30 AM

Krob
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No I wouldn't. I think it's working as intended.
I'd call it Poor Design Choice, Feature Implementation Failure, and/or Didn't Think About That. :P

K

< Message edited by Krob -- 12/21/2010 5:23:06 AM >

(in reply to adecoy95)

Post #: 4

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 8:19:15 AM

Orzelek
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You can see this quite easily without getting into tech trading. Simply research 3 different variants of hyperdrive and upgrade will always place the latest one on any ship design and to see two other variants you will need to uncheck see latest on design screen.

It seems that new research tree addition was not anticipated in ship design mechanics.

I also doubt it's working as intended - if AI uses same method it will nerf itself a bit in this way.

(in reply to Krob)

Post #: 5

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 12:44:37 PM

Carewolf
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krob

No I wouldn't. I think it's working as intended.
I'd call it Poor Design Choice, Feature Implementation Failure, and/or Didn't Think About That. :P

As Ackadian, I get some very efficient engines. Since I have those I do not research ordinary engines. This gives me two options when designing ships. The original crappy engine at minimal research, lowest efficient, lowest thrust, and lowest top speed, or my own racial engine that is superior in all aspects including research level. The AI ship-designer always choose the old non-racial engine, even if it 60k research vs 240k research, and inferior in ALL aspects.

Would you call that a bug??!

(in reply to Krob)

Post #: 6

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/21/2010 10:34:48 PM

Krob
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That could be a bug Carewolf. :) I wouldn't say definitely though. Hopefully the upgrade system will get some love that lets us decide what to upgrade.

K

(in reply to Carewolf)

Post #: 7

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/22/2010 11:24:59 AM

Carewolf
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krob

That could be a bug Carewolf. :) I wouldn't say definitely though. Hopefully the upgrade system will get some love that lets us decide what to upgrade.

My only point was that it seem the upgrade AI is completely ignoring racial techs now. In the original game I only saw racial tech overlooked when it was behind in research-costs, now I see it ignored consistently. Though I should say I am not playing the same races in my expansion games as I have tried in pre-expansion games, so it might also be race/tech specific.

(in reply to Krob)

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RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/22/2010 6:28:28 PM

Kayoz
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I have to disagree with Krob. It's a bug, speaking as a programmer.

The key word you have to look at is "upgrade" - the upgrade system should choose the "best" - and since racial techs are superior in all regards, they should, by default be chosen.

The fact that it isn't working that way is a BUG. If you argue otherwise, then you might as well say that blue screens on Windows are instances of Windows "working as designed". If your AV goes and nukes your HDD - as McAffee did to mine - the AV engine doing what it's designed to do, though very likely NOT what the engine and DAT teams intended - you argument is that it isn't a bug?

Code bug or design bug - either way, it's still a bug. A flaw from how it's "supposed to" work.

(in reply to Carewolf)

Post #: 9

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/22/2010 7:07:30 PM

Nalim27
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It is definitelly a bug - when upgrade button caused using crap technology (but inventet latest) istead of expensive bought technology then it is bug. Believe me I'm QA senior working for IBM :-).

Please solve this bug in next patch ... upgrade functionality should alwayes use better technology, not the latest!

Also please read my suggestion here.

< Message edited by Nalim27 -- 12/22/2010 7:11:18 PM >

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Nalim27, gamer

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 10

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/23/2010 12:09:59 AM

Krob
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Kayoz: We'll have to agree to disagree on our definitions of bugs. If it's working as designed by the people writing the code, then it is, as stated, working as designed. Just because it's not working how we would like it to work doesn't make it a bug. I agree that it should have been designed differently, I just don't think, in this case, that it was.
And, for the record, the Blue Screen of Death, when you see it, is absolutely working as designed. It's a minimal info halt screen while the system dumps memory to disk when something else has crashed the system.

Nalim27: There's a lot I want to say about your reply, but most of it's negative, so I'm going to refrain. I will say is that you have affirmed that my wishlist post is a good way to go about things. "upgrade functionality should alwayes use better technology, not the latest" Please, tell me, what is the better technology for my playstyle, a shield that recharges faster or is stronger? What about Kayoz there, does it have to be the same for him? In some situations (fuel cells for example) it's clear that the racial tech is superior, but maybe low on a resource to build that module and want to step back to standard tech. The system should default to particular option and let the player decide if he wants to set something else as their "best" technology.

adecoy95: Apologies if it seems like I've co-opted your post. I do agree that the existing implementation is flawed.

K

< Message edited by Krob -- 12/23/2010 12:16:54 AM >

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 11

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/23/2010 12:45:20 AM

PaulP
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Krob: The thing is, some of the racial tech is just better in every possible way, and the AI doesn't take that into account.

For instance, say you're Ikkuro. The very first level of my repair bot that you start with is without a doubt way way better than even the best damage control system - not only does it mitigate more damage, it repairs components to boot. And yet if you research damage control for some reason (say you got bonus from taking apart a ship, or it was part of a trade deal) suddenly damage control is the latest component, and it will replace the S2F7 repair bots on new designs. This is why when I conquered the Ikkuro they had a bunch of ships with damage control and S2F4 repair bots instead of the far more advanced S2F7 repair bots.

This isn't the only example either. The Kiadian, Ugnari and Haakonish racials, for instance, are far better than the standard stuff. Yet if they you get the first level of the standard techs it counts as latest and replaces the racial item in all upgraded designs.

It even happens in a few cases to non racial stuff. Say I just finished researching Jump Energy Recycling, giving me a 21900 speed 75 energy 10 second drive. If I then go and research High Speed Hyperdrives in order to get the prereqs for the advanced hyperdrive I suddenly find the designs using the 18750 speed 88 energy 13 second drive.

(in reply to Krob)

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RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/23/2010 12:56:49 AM

Krob
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Joined: 8/29/2010
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quote:

In some situations (fuel cells for example) it's clear that the racial tech is superior, but maybe low on a resource to build that module and want to step back to standard tech.

PaulP: I'm aware and even said as much (as quoted), but there are still good reasons to not always use the superior tech (whether racial or otherwise). The system is seriously flawed, I've said that too. But flawed does not necessarily mean bugged.

K

(in reply to PaulP)

Post #: 13

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/23/2010 12:57:42 AM

Kayoz
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Krob - I very strongly disagree with your assessment.

In the case of McAffee nuking Windows on my system - it was working perfectly correctly - as it was designed to. The DATs and engine correctly identified the files matching the characteristics it was looking for as being infected, and proceeded to quarantine them. That's what the AV software was designed and programmed to do. The fact that someone in their brilliant QA department didn't bother to check the behaviour of that release against OS components is, in your view - not a bug. WHAT? It nuked my box, and "that's not a bug"?!?!

Edit: note, that a great deal of their QA is being done in India. You get what you pay for.

From wikipedia - "...an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways" - I highly doubt that the programmers INTENDED for slower, less efficient normal engines to be used instead of the swanky racial ones. The fact that they didn't give racials more weight is, imo - unexpected/unintended behaviour.

Your shields example is deeply flawed and I'm wondering if you've even played the game. Stronger vs. faster recharging shields is NOT a question. That is factored into each shield based on the latest tech - you can choose to use a more primitive shield - but it's going to be weaker and slower recharging - you DO NOT have a choice in that matter.

Wiki entry for a software bug. Again, note the use of "unintended" and "unexpected".

And as for your statement, "It's a minimal info halt screen while the system dumps memory to disk when something else has crashed the system." - I'm afraid that you don't seem to know what a BSOD is. It's a critical error. It's USUALLY blamed on external software - drivers and such - but a null pointer in Windows will do exactly the same thing. There are a variety of causes. It is not, as you assert - something else - that crashed the system.

Wiki entry for a blue screen. Please read the causes sections - for example - "Developers encountered the Stop screen when bugs in the operating system's software (typically null pointers) slipped through the net during beta testing.". I hate to relieve my bladder on your parade - but Windows does indeed have bugs. M$ programmers are not perfect.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/23/2010 2:29:44 AM >

(in reply to Krob)

Post #: 14

RE: bug: latest deisigns does not factor in race techs - 12/23/2010 9:03:17 PM

Nalim27
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Krob: I understand your point of view. I understand that when you play game in specific way then some technology can be better then more advanced technologies. But to those specific requirements the Upgrade button can't be programmed - you must upgrade your ship designs manually.

For other players (who play by common way) upgrade button should create faster, stronger and more armored ships - and this is why we with Kayoz saying that current functionality not works correctly - by using other words it is buggy.

But developers can change Upgrade functionality by way that please all players. For example implement component locking functionaly. How it will works?
Let say that you want for some reason have in design old shield (because it is cheap or whatewer). So in design window for the ship there will be new Lock check-box button (next to every component in list of assigned parts) that will lock this component for automatic Upgrades. So when you later in the game press Upgrade button, then game will ignore that component but still upgrade others.

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Nalim27, gamer

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 15