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Advice on preparing for your first winter.

 
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Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/22/2010 7:17:01 PM   
Davekhps

 

Posts: 203
Joined: 12/10/2010
Status: offline 		Looking for playtester advice here. I'm playing Axis right now, but advice for either side is welcome.

My 1941 Axis CG is at the start of turn 17, just about to hit mud. I'm already tightening my lines. I failed to take Leningrad on my "grand sweep" east of Lake Ilmen, so I'm bringing back my panzers to the rear and placing infantry in front (note for future games: if you don't aim for/luck out with that hasty attack to shut down the Baltic port, you need more troops than AGN to take Leningrad-- either another infantry or panzer army). In AGC, I launched a last attack that should take Rzhev and pocket some more troops north of Smolensk. In AGS, I've launched a late attack that should take Dnepeprotrovsk and hopefully clear out most of the area north of the Crimea (alas, I have nothing in the Crimea yet), but I won't match the historical rate of advance (Stalino/Rostov).

Casualties / captured are about 300K vs. 3 million. Don't recall the AFV count off the top of my head. I think my air losses are higher than normal, but again, can't prove it either way right now.

I'm not thrilled with my rate of advance-- Leningrad was pretty much a failure, and I would have liked to have reached a line of Orel-Kursk-Stalino-Rostov and be entering the Crimea by now, but AGS didn't have the mobility do so. But I did make some grand pockets along the way and captured a lot of troops and equipment.

Anyway, that's the general situation. (I'll add a screenshot later when I get home).

Here's what I'm doing for the mud/winter turns, would like to know if I'm doing it right (or being too cautious).

1. Placing a double-line checkerboard of single-division infantry along a line Velikiye Luki - Vyazma - Briansk - Korenovo - Poltava. Most should all be at fort 5 by the blizzard. (Is this wise? Should I keep the second line of infantry right behind the first in RESERVE? Or should I break down to regiments instead and use the third regiments as RESERVE?)

Note that I have yet to figure out what to do with the Romanians. Form a line with 11th Army German forces with Romanians in support, or vice versa?

2. On turn 16 I began pulling back half of 2 and 3 Panzer Groups to 10+ hexes back along rail lines to refit. Once the fall mud is over, these will be my fire brigade reserves (under my operational control, not under the RESERVE function). The panzers currently deployed up until the blizzard hits will pull back to refit over the rest of the winter and the spring mud turns to become the spearhead for my spring offensive.

3. I intend to place most (all) of my air force in the national reserve to refit over the mud / winter.

4. I intend to reduce my infantry TOEs to a lower percentage (80%? 75%?).

5. Using about 200 stored admin points, I intend to create a line of fortified zones one checkerboard hex back behind the double-line mentioned in #1. If/when my first checkerboard crumbles, the first line will fall back to that third line. Half my panzers in #2 will be in reserve to defend that second line.

6. Supply is good. Railheads extend throughout AGN and AGC. AGS is a different story-- I'm probably going to relocate one of the AGC FBDs down south to build up the network there. I have adequate garrisons in all my rear cities, although I expect to tweak those a bit in coming turns (I may try the mix of 1 fortified region, 1 regiment where possible in order to free up the handful of German combat divisions I have in certain cities). I do expect to have to relocate some mobile units to the rear to deal with any partisan flare-ups, however. (Hungarians, Slovaks and maybe the SS mobile brigades).

7. Come spring, I intend to use what forces I have to launch a second strike at Leningrad (again aiming to isolate, if not take, the Ladoga ports), then come at Moscow from the north. I just think I'll have better luck up there than in the south. Also, I'm thinking another round of airfield attacks on the first spring turn are in order... is that wise, or a waste of planes?

So, experts: anything I'm doing wrong? Am I too conservative? Or am I too optimistic that this defense will do anything come winter? Do I still need airpower come winter or can I put them in reserve until spring?

What else should I be looking for? I'm expecting Soviet numbers to be ginormous by spring 1942, but what about their combat capability? I've already noticed that it's harder to dislodge Soviet units by turns 14-16 than it was just a few turns before, I'm getting more retreats than routs even when all things are equal, i.e. no forts. Also, Soviet airpower appears to be recovering, albeit slowly.
Post #: 1
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/22/2010 7:29:16 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		You can expect Rifle divisions to have a CV of about 3 or 4 by spring and around 4 or 5 by summer.

I'd suggest not building fortified zones, they'll fold when attacked. Save the AP's for assigning/reassigning leaders.

You could try not holding a line, but instead forming sort of a checkerboard hedgehog.

A=Axis, -=empty hex, S=Soviets

A-S
--S
A-S

or one with two hexes in between your stacks.

With two or three divisions in a hex with level 4 or 5 forts, the Soviets would have to concentrate more manpower to be able to force you out.

Keep in mind that a leader's wins/losses are based on battles, they're not cumulative for the wins/losses of the unit. So if you stack units and those are attacked, the result is one battle and 1 win/loss. If you spread two or three divisions out, they'll be attacked in two or three battles and as such your leader has a better chance of being sacked. Minimizing the amount of leaders being dismissed is important for maintaining the C&C you want.

_____________________________

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Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Davekhps)
Post #: 2
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/22/2010 7:53:57 PM   
Davekhps

 

Posts: 203
Joined: 12/10/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks P... I forgot to clarify, I'm not thinking of building the fortified regions to keep them, I'm building them to create a third line of forts.  Once that first line falls back, I'll disband the fortified regions and return the infantry & equipment to the pool.

The "line" I'm talking about (wish I could show you!) is identical to the checkerboard you mentioned, staggered one hex.  Then there is a row of empty hexes behind that line, then the second line has another checkerboard staggered one hex.  If I do the third line with the fortified regions, it too will be staggered one hex.

That said, I can see what you're saying about the potential value in staggering *two* hex checkerboards and doubling up.  I might do this in certain sectors (just don't have a whole heckuva lot of infantry to go around, the bane of the Axis).

Also, good point about leaders.  I haven't lost any good leaders so far, but a few have already been sacked here and there, and I'd hate to lose anyone like Manstein or Guderian over poorly-chosen tactical deployments.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 3
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/22/2010 8:00:40 PM   
roflbinflood

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 12/8/2010
Status: offline 		Well i just played through my first 2 turns of blizzard and my situation is hopeless.. and i prepared for it since mud started.  Its a goddamn nightmare..

Whatever you decide to do.. just dont put those romanians into any frontline position. My 4th romanian army has divisions with 30% of their TOE and that is after 2 blizzard turns while theyre just standing on a fortified line without ever seeing combat..  Theyr having mass suicides there or something.. thats the only explanation i can think of. I also made the mistake of putting the 3rd romanian army to man a short line near Stalino and they got utterly crushed.. they lost 30k men in a few turns and now my lines have a massive gap and nothing to throw in it...

The only tip i can give you is to get every mountain division you have and put them on the line. They dont suffer any penalties and their stats will skyrocket during blizzards.



(in reply to Davekhps)
Post #: 4
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/22/2010 10:30:35 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I would say that using the terrain helps - what terrain?  Well, that seems to be cities and the towns - a hedgehog here helps immensely, and a couple in supporting distance can make a sector of the lines far easier.  Look for these as mud approaches to try and stitch together a better defense.

Of course, to a noob like me the combat system is still kind of a mystery, and playing my "normal" game now in winter I am kind of feeling the strain...

(in reply to roflbinflood)
Post #: 5
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 2:13:47 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		At normal(!) I am facing the beginning of feb with huge losses, thin lines, a month more of snow...and a desire to pull back to the Dneiper to refit.  There is so much more to learn...

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 6
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 6:54:06 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		Good advice, I've been bug hunting and not getting anywhere in my games.  I'm coming up to my first winter and I'm already shaking in my boots! 

_____________________________


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Post #: 7
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 9:55:00 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Your first, First Winter is always going to be the toughest. I have given some advice, based on the 6 blizzards I experienced in testing, in Arstavidios' "First Try" AAR in the AAR section, and you can see how I used a "Linebacker" defence in the Field Marshal Noob AAR. Pieter's Hedgehog defence may also work, but we haven't seen a full blizzard season, to see what shape the Axis are in come April.

There may be some merit to the fortified zone "fall back line", but a couple of things to consider:

1. Location of the fall back line, if you build it too far forward it may not be strong enough - entrenchment building rates are reduced significantly during the blizzard.

2. The fortified zones will suck manpower from the replacement pools that your front line troops might need.

The winter mechanics were adjusted so that the GE infantry Divs, could retreat through the blizzard without routing, however they will be susceptible to routing when manpower strengths are in the 7-8k region, which is why I suggested the rotation tactic, to maintain front line strength above this threshold.

Having men manning a fortified line will reduce your ability to maintain the front line divisions.

As noted in other threads, the checks and balances within the game are a great feature, and as yet there is no "best" way to survive the First Winter, and I think as the game matures we will see many new strategies used.

_____________________________

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Post #: 8
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 3:12:18 PM   
Davekhps

 

Posts: 203
Joined: 12/10/2010
Status: offline 		So, I hit the blizzard last night.  Funny thing is, there are a few winter turns in there between the mud and the blizzard that I guess I never knew about.  When those winter turns hit I was expecting all hell to break loose, but instead I saw my units still strong and toasty in their entrenchments.  "Hey, this isn't so bad... what are people complaining about?"

Yeah, it isn't bad... until the freakin' blizzard.

Well, went through my first turn and my first line held everywhere against Soviet attacks, with one exception-- the strong forces trying to break south out of Leningrad.  I should be able to counter those off with panzers in reserve, and if I can actually contain that break, it should be a better situation for me come spring than it is now, given the Soviets will be out of all of their giant entrenchments ringing Leningrad. 

The AI continues to impress, BTW.  It defends well enough, but then come the blizzard turn, bam!  It attacks.  It's going to be a lonnng winter, I can tell.

Anyway, a couple of other things (bugs, quirks) I've observed that I'll post in another thread.

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 9
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 3:18:19 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Yes, you get 3 turns of "Snow" before 12 turns of "Blizzard", then 3 turns of snow. The 3 turns of snow in March allow you to regain territory lost in the blizzard, provided you are in reasonable shape at the end of the blizzard - easier said than done first time around.

_____________________________

It's only a Game


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Post #: 10
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/23/2010 4:26:14 PM   
snowflake


Posts: 10
Joined: 12/14/2010
Status: offline 		Wel, i'm not that far in the game but this is what roughly happened in 1941. Also because they paused in autumn (or was it the juli), then continued their offensive in the direction towards Moscow. Abd yup, the mud was a killer too.

During their first assault on Russia
--------------------------------------------------
The german Wehrmacht forgot/didn't-plan to supply winter clothing to the troops, hence they froze. Also tanks,cars and other vehicles did not tolerate the low temperatures of minus 40 degrees centigrade. That was with Moscow in their sights. After that they were overall by Russian tanks and infantry brigades on skies.

Basically error/negligence of the staff. So to fix this, try get supplies before winter and it starts to snow. I don't know if that is possible, but i wil look into this one, this is the key factor in taking Moscow, but not to brake the russing fighting spirit.

Any one already done this, please tel us.

< Message edited by snowflake -- 12/23/2010 4:34:52 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/27/2010 1:33:47 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		It's not that the winter clothing and lubricants were forgotten; there was just no way to get them in quantity to the front line troops. Other supplies had higher priorities. If Typhoon hadn't happened, maybe some of the Wehrmacht's limited supply capacity could have gone towards winterizing the combat units.

(in reply to snowflake)
Post #: 12
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/27/2010 3:52:53 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		What i've read of the war is consistent with Zorch's statement; the supply situation for the Axis was awful, the front line troops could not get everything they needed, even if such things had been available to move forward.

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Post #: 13
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/27/2010 9:14:39 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

You can expect Rifle divisions to have a CV of about 3 or 4 by spring and around 4 or 5 by summer.

I'd suggest not building fortified zones, they'll fold when attacked. Save the AP's for assigning/reassigning leaders.

You could try not holding a line, but instead forming sort of a checkerboard hedgehog.

A=Axis, -=empty hex, S=Soviets

A-S
--S
A-S

or one with two hexes in between your stacks.

With two or three divisions in a hex with level 4 or 5 forts, the Soviets would have to concentrate more manpower to be able to force you out.

Keep in mind that a leader's wins/losses are based on battles, they're not cumulative for the wins/losses of the unit. So if you stack units and those are attacked, the result is one battle and 1 win/loss. If you spread two or three divisions out, they'll be attacked in two or three battles and as such your leader has a better chance of being sacked. Minimizing the amount of leaders being dismissed is important for maintaining the C&C you want.


having my forces nearly surrounded around Moscow and pulling back fast, I'm going to try this, coupled with something else. During my firs GC, I tried to hold the line but ended up extremely weak everywhere, and had to commit my Panzer forces prematurely with disastrous results. The following strategy I'm working on is based on the premise that towns (dot in the hex type not urban hexes) provide some protection against the elements. Hope the devs could tell me if towns do offer some protection from the elements.

Towns tend to be numerous on the maps and could easily be woven into a system of double lines of defence (front and fallback positions). If each town had a garrison of 2 divisions (with anti tank attached to one of them in crucial areas), they could exert considerable ZOC in their vicinity, thus slowing any outflanking movements.. Frontal assaults will be costly for the Soviets in any case. Luftwaffe transport and fighter units will be placed in areas from which they can supply cut off forces.

Only up north is there a problem, since there are few towns and therefore troops have to be stationed in the open, using a kind of relay system to try to keep forces up to strength.

Panzer forces and Axis allies will be kept in urban hexes to minimise casualties and in anticipation of early '42 upgrades. Augmented mountain divisions (of which there are too few!) will either be used as improtant garrisons or as a 'mobile' firebrigade in threatned areas.

Essentially the whole point is to play for time,trading space for time if need be. Mind you, this strategy is based on the devs confirming that towns do provide a modicum of protection against the blizzard....

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 14
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/27/2010 10:31:59 AM   
hmatilai


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/13/2010
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Playing as Soviets in my GC I was able to decimate whole German Army during blizzard. Whole front moved back from before Leningrad, Vyazma and Kiev to part of AGN encircled in Estonia, AGC in shambles and hardly able to put fight and AGS in a bit stronger position, but pushed back to Rovno-Tarnopol -line.

Now it's the first week of May 42 after mud season, and German army has recovered a lot of tank strength, about 800 afvs (1200 -> 2000+) and is trying to initiate attack through Pripet marshes. On first try it crashed headlong to my relocating Western Front, which also was going to attach through Pripet marshes as there used to be only weak Romanian screen for last half a year.

Manpower situation currently is 2,5 (up from 2M right after blizzard ) Million Germans facing 8M russians, so I think I'm going to go on the offensive already during summer against AGC...


(in reply to Davekhps)
Post #: 15
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/27/2010 12:52:59 PM   
Arstavidios

 

Posts: 780
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well, in my campaign as the Axis I've just hit may.
I went through the blizzard on challenging. From what I understand this means the soviets were able to make many more attacks.
To sum up I stopped during the mud to dig in and build a line  of fortified zones. The soviet army just burst through my lines with many divisions freezing to death and losing many troops even without attacks.

Mountain divisions did quite well. Other units were just wiped out. Most of the losses have been disabled troops but recovery is slow.
right now I have about 2.9M German troops against about 7M soviets.

It looks like troops in cities resisted a bit better. But I'm not quite sure
Partisans start attacking about as the blizzard sets in, and this can cause some nasty surprises, so you have to thing about your rail network well before hand. Connectinfg the different lines is critical to avoid partisans cutting off some parts of ther front. level 4 is the max I saw so far. Only level 5 I've seen are forts in leningrad hexes.

Digging in takes some time. I messed around with reserve status and then wen into full retreat so I don't really know how it works. I will need several tries before I feel I can try pbem. Advice of other players will sure be welcome on this.

Basically after the first couple of turns the lines started to crumbe and I retreated everywhere except kharkov and leningrad. Settings did not help as it allowed additional soviet attacks. well dug in Rumanians resisted well at first but thet crumbled after a couple of turns. but the Germans suffered likewise.

(in reply to hmatilai)
Post #: 16
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/29/2010 7:20:54 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

It looks like troops in cities resisted a bit better.
I messed around with reserve status and then wen into full retreat so I don't really know how it works. I will need several tries before I feel I can try pbem. Advice of other players will sure be welcome on this.



Cities and towns do offer protection from the elements, the bigger the city the more protection offered (at least that seems to be my experience). For now the reserve unit system does not work during blizzard turns. I based a lot of my defensive strategy on reserves and got lots of holes punched in my lines as a result (never once had a reserve unit committed, even though all requirements, MPs, supply, HQs were met or exceeded). Hopefully this will get fixed in a patch!

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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Post #: 17
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/29/2010 7:43:24 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

For now the reserve unit system does not work during blizzard turns. I based a lot of my defensive strategy on reserves and got lots of holes punched in my lines as a result (never once had a reserve unit committed, even though all requirements, MPs, supply, HQs were met or exceeded).


How many turns of blizzard have you had with no reserve activations? The rules were changed to slightly reduce activations that would have high command penalties, but you should see a reserve activation every 3rd or 4th combat assuming there are 3-4 reserve units in range of the combat.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 12/29/2010 7:44:00 PM >

_____________________________

It's only a Game


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Post #: 18
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/29/2010 11:28:16 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I went three full blizzard turns with zero reserve activations. All my reserve units were within 1 or two hexes of the front, rested and supplied and with proper HQ attachments. I finally gave up on the reserves and simply added them all to the front to prevent further breakthroughs. Support units were still activated as usual in many battles, but no reserves.
This was discussed in another forum and it seems others have experienced the same thing (one poster said he went 8 blizzard turns with no reserve activations). This is especially frustrating since the blizzard turns are really the only time that a German player will need defensive reserves. I also felt it added a nice bit of further realism to an already great game, so I do hope they get it working a bit better.

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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Post #: 19
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 12:24:36 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		I am in August 1942 as the Axis in my training CG; I captured Kaluga, Kursk, Orel, Belgorod, Knarkov and and was outside Stalino; and had captured one Moscow hex; Leningrad was all but surrounded. During the 1st blizzard Soviet counterattack I was thrown back to the Dnepr giving up all of the above cities except for the Moscow hex and Kaluga. I did not even try to standfast - rather I retreated one/two hexes per turn and let the Soviets advance trying to use sacrifical lambs to screen and be in contact with the Soviets after the move. The problem is not so much combat as it is attrition from being in simple contact with Soviet units at the end of the move; this will cost you 100 k troops or more/turn if you are not careful.

"Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately one-half to one percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed (one-half of the manpower is killed and the other half is disabled). Combat attrition losses are dependent on unit morale, the number of ground elements of a certain type in a unit, and the experience level of each type of ground element. The higher unit morale and ground element experience level, the fewer combat attrition losses. This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being adjacent to enemy units (9.4.1)"

So, if you have 2,000,000 men adjacent to Soviets at the end of a blizzard turn...well, you do the math...


Now the spring/summer Axis counter offensive has been devastating with 173 Soviet units eliminated; my approach is to avoid contact with the Soviets as much as possible in preparation for the thaw.

Marquo

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Post #: 20
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 8:01:28 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Problem is that some terrain is extremely important. Ex I consider the Kharkow/Belgorod area extremely important because it is the springboard for offensives in any direction. What I find incredible is that by January most forces are decimated and you'll end up waiting for the mud!

Frankly it should be noted that the Soviets suffered losses similar to the Germans during the period as well. Which is why they were so weak as to have their spring offensive turned into a rout by the Germans. The Siberians and new formations were relatively speaking, burnt out by spring with large gaps in their TO&Es. That is not represented in the game since thee bulk of Russian formations are at full strength in spring.

Also their supply seems to be on the plus side too. After all the worst enemy for the Soviets was a rather cumbersome and limited supply system. They aslo seem to defy logistics, ex up north near the hilly terrain you can get soviet formations with a CV of 6 or 8 in broken terrain, during a blizzard and far away from any HQ. How's it possible?

(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 21
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 8:10:08 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Problem is that some terrain is extremely important. Ex I consider the Kharkow/Belgorod area extremely important because it is the springboard for offensives in any direction. What I find incredible is that by January most forces are decimated and you'll end up waiting for the mud!

Frankly it should be noted that the Soviets suffered losses similar to the Germans during the period as well. Which is why they were so weak as to have their spring offensive turned into a rout by the Germans. The Siberians and new formations were relatively speaking, burnt out by spring with large gaps in their TO&Es. That is not represented in the game since thee bulk of Russian formations are at full strength in spring.

Also their supply seems to be on the plus side too. After all the worst enemy for the Soviets was a rather cumbersome and limited supply system. They aslo seem to defy logistics, ex up north near the hilly terrain you can get soviet formations with a CV of 6 or 8 in broken terrain, during a blizzard and far away from any HQ. How's it possible?


Implementing these topics would go a far ways into evening out the game IMO. I haven't yet got through my first blizzard...3 turns to go thank god...but the Soviets are just getting stronger and stronger it seems. I always thought they go burnt out too. Cutting back on their crummy supply system would really help equal the field, it should matter to much because they always will have rails right behind them.

_____________________________


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Post #: 22
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 9:04:40 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Fact is that in reality the Red Army suffered enourmous casualties in the process. I guess its very hard to simulate but for example I had an attack on Kharkov by 4 Red Infantry Divisions defended by a Panzer Division and a Motorised division. They only took some 4000 casualties. It is normal that even hasty attacks, the Soviets only suffer 10% tops casualties of forces committed, even against deeply entrenched (level 4) elite units with 90% of their TO&E. In summer, with 3 elite infantry units, aided by the Karl Gustavs took me 2 weeks and an average of 20% casualties to remove the Russian units in front of Sevastapol.

Therefore a tweak to their supply system and an increase in attrition on the Soviet side should be implemented to reflect reality. If I remember well, the Soviets suffered close to a million casualties in winter '41 and the bulk of them weren't due to combat but rather to frostbite and unsanitary practices.

(in reply to CarnageINC)
Post #: 23
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 1:16:23 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		The Soviet army and its leaders in 1941 are indeed much more efficient in the game than they were in real life. Whether you think that's ahistorical or not depends on what you think of the capabilities of the Soviets compared to the limitations imposed on them by flawed C&C, poor training and poor logistics.

In the current state of the game, with several kinds of terrain providing significant bonuses for the defender and with enormous quantities of replacements for the Soviets, they'll always be in a good shape in both winter and spring 1942. There's very little the Axis can do about that. You can't touch the Soviets in the mud, only partially in the snow and more or less not at all in the blizzard.

Casualties were recently increased, but can still be on the low side for some battles.

Of course, the advantages of terrain types with significant bonuses for the defender as well as the checkerboard defence also apply to the Axis when they're defending, but the Soviets have artillery as a force multiplier. The Axis don't really have any comparable thing. I also still feel that taking the experience and morale of Axis units into account, the casualties they take in battles against much less experienced formations can still be too high, but in the end many of the quirks will be evened out probably.

Based on both my own experiences as the Soviets, and my thus far brief experience in the game with notenome, I can only conclude that the Soviets can be much more capable in 1941 than they ever were in real life, whilst the Axis have limitations imposed on them in some ways: logistics start breaking down after 2 turns and with around 30 MP's you're not going to get through a checkerboard, swamps are also too effective against mobile forces currently, but hopefully the Soviets will be hindered by that too when they're attacking.

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Post #: 24
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 3:10:26 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Yeah, the Soviet ground forces do seem to be a bit ahistorically strong in my game as well. I've also noticed that the Red Air Force seems to have reached roughly mid-1944 capabilities already as well. I'm in Feb 42 (thank God, only a few blizzard turns left...hopefully) and I routinely see swarms of Soviet aircraft (600-900 fighters and 200+ bombers) per attack in certain sectors (my front around Velikiye Luki is turning to dust). Even when engaged by 70-90 of my fighters they only suffer minimal losses.
I did, mirabile dictu, have one snow turn on 1 Jan (playing with random weather), so I decided to hit their airfields repeatedly with basically no results. Killed a few ground personnel and shot down a few interceptors but didn't manage to destroy any ac on the ground (that I could tell), even after several attacks with 80-120 bombers. Is this WAD I wonder? Perhaps just a function of the uber-blizzard effect and everything will return to normal in spring?

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(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 25
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 6:10:25 PM   
Arstavidios

 

Posts: 780
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline 		I tried to set up reserves but didn't get any results apparently.
Digging in helped resisting a few turns the units just faded away with blizzard anyway, So I went into general retrat to limit the losses as there  were some some costly turns with 200 000 + casualties - with russian settings at 110. I think the main point is how to preserve the army rather than how to hold ground, so that when the weather turns in 1942 you are in a  condition to go to the offensive again in 1942 and retake some of this ground. digging in and trying to hold seems likely to result in the axis armies taking huge casualties and eventually breaking at some point, which is what happenend in my campaign against the AI.

I don't know if wintering some units in Germany or Rumania will save them from the effects of the blizzard. It might be an idea to take back some forces like panzer divisionsall the way back to Germany to keep up up your tank strength.

(in reply to dwesolick)
Post #: 26
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/30/2010 11:32:00 PM   
Zort

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		I was wondering on ComradeP's comment on the soviets being more capable, could one impact be that there is more being produced then historically? Reason I ask is in the manual is says the soviet player has to get 1/2 his factories evacuated to be historical and it seems from what I have read in the forums most factories are being moved and there is little impact on production. Haven't played the soviets so not sure if this a viable reason or not.

(in reply to Arstavidios)
Post #: 27
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/31/2010 7:00:21 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

I tried to set up reserves but didn't get any results apparently.
Digging in helped resisting a few turns the units just faded away with blizzard anyway, So I went into general retrat to limit the losses as there  were some some costly turns with 200 000 + casualties - with russian settings at 110. I think the main point is how to preserve the army rather than how to hold ground, so that when the weather turns in 1942 you are in a  condition to go to the offensive again in 1942 and retake some of this ground. digging in and trying to hold seems likely to result in the axis armies taking huge casualties and eventually breaking at some point, which is what happenend in my campaign against the AI.

I don't know if wintering some units in Germany or Rumania will save them from the effects of the blizzard. It might be an idea to take back some forces like panzer divisionsall the way back to Germany to keep up up your tank strength.



In blizzard turns, reserves seem not to work. Personally I withraw several Panzer Corps to Kiev and Poland in anticipation of Spring while the Romanians are sent to cities as well, except for the excellent mountain corps which is highly effective

(in reply to Arstavidios)
Post #: 28
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/31/2010 7:38:54 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		The Red Army is annoyingly too strong in the first winter.

I had a look at what the AI is allowed to do after several blizzard turns : supplying whole armies 12 hexes deep behind the german frontline in 1941, using a hodge podge of intermixed divisions as an effective combat force, able to sustain intense winter offensive operations in forest terrain north of Velikye Luki, for several consecutive turns - this is actually a supernatural performance, and something they were still not able to do in the 1944-1945 winter.
Ok for counterattacks, ok for local encirclements, ok for winter attrition, but what I observed is actually a bit too much.
Such amazing performance are a bit ruining the interest of the game ; maybe this could be tweaked in an upcoming patch?

< Message edited by Kelblau -- 12/31/2010 9:53:48 AM >

(in reply to vinnie71)
Post #: 29
RE: Advice on preparing for your first winter. - 12/31/2010 9:59:50 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

The Red Army is annoyingly too strong in the first winter.


What settings are you playing on? If higher than "normal" I would suggest adjusting the settings back to normal for the blizzard turns.

Everyone's first blizzard experience is tough, and you will lose ground, but in March, when snow returns, there is an opportunity to recover a lot of lost ground - check out my Field Marshal Noob AAR, for a few hints on surviving the first winter.

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(in reply to Kel)
Post #: 30
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