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9/11 - 8/31/2002 9:34:23 PM

3/2 ACR

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/18/2001
From: Sunny Southern California
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Here is an article in my local newspaper, It hit home as I read it, Talking about sending unarmed planes to make suicide runs against any other hijacked planes on 9/11
this is Col. Robert Marr Airforce commander of the NE Air defense conus talking:
"An airman asked to make the ultimate sacrifice in defense of his country is no different then the solider asked to storm the beaches at Normandy"
for us Vets and Active duty personal this made perfect sense to me at the time. but not to one high school or collage student I talked with (maybe 10) have our youth lost something? I could not wait to join the service from the time I was a little boy

My thoughts just wanted to share, and hope I find some sympathetic ears

Rick Tetreault
Mission Viejo CA
Aka 3/2 ACR

Post #: 1

- 8/31/2002 9:38:58 PM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Perhaps they recognized the difference: You can survive the beaches of Normandy but not a suicide run.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 2

9/11 - 8/31/2002 11:38:42 PM

3/2 ACR

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/18/2001
From: Sunny Southern California
Status: offline

that well maybe true but only one new what normandy is.

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 3

- 9/1/2002 12:31:36 AM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Ouch..talk about history knowledge...

But what I saw funny in your post that an *Air Force* commander wants to use suicide planes..are they so stripped of $ that they cannot afford armed aircraft any more?????

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 4

9/11 - 9/1/2002 1:01:04 AM

3/2 ACR

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/18/2001
From: Sunny Southern California
Status: offline

with the threat of the Iron curtain gone we have become lax in our Air defenses WHO WOULD DARE SEND ARMED PLANES OVER OUR SKIES! Right shame on us
Rick

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 5

- 9/1/2002 1:29:16 AM

red

Posts: 555
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: FL,US
Status: offline

It may be different mentality. What the 9/11 hijackers and WW2 suicide pilots have in common is the belief in the idea. Kamikaze crashed their planes thinking of going to heaven, similar to the 9/11. Soviet pilots preferred crashing into an enemy convoy to parashuting and being captured due to idiology and belief they were fighitng for their country's survival etc.. Sacrifice of one for many.

In the modern world given the humanitarian values instilled in most modern democracies, the human life is above all and people nowdays don't have to think of their survival as a nation.

Normandy, Iwo Jima, Stalingrad became too distant dusty historical name. The vets are going away. My grandfather fought on Neva's shores under siege in Leningrad (St. Petersburg) so I have pretty vivid memories of his stories. My younger brother didn't have a chance to hear the first hand account so he's more interested in computers and other gadgets. It may be just the way history works but as they say: One that doesn't know their histroy is bound to repeat it.

_____________________________

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."
--MUHAMMAD ALI

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 6

Don't forget - 9/3/2002 1:01:51 AM

Noodleboy

Posts: 282
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: Most definitely NOT where i WANT to be
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red
[B]It may be different mentality. What the 9/11 hijackers and WW2 suicide pilots have in common is the belief in the idea. Kamikaze crashed their planes thinking of going to heaven, similar to the 9/11. Soviet pilots preferred crashing into an enemy convoy to parashuting and being captured due to idiology and belief they were fighitng for their country's survival etc.. Sacrifice of one for many. [/B][/QUOTE]

Why was Henderson Field called Henderson Field?

As you say, it's the mathematics. Look at the St. Lo, hit by 2 Kamikazes; not such a bad trade (although i appreciate that overall the IJN would have been better off sticking to a non-suicide policy).

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 7

- 9/4/2002 12:44:07 AM

campekenobi

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red
[B]. It may be just the way history works but as they say: One that doesn't know their histroy is bound to repeat it. [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe that's the very core. Even with a gripping portrayal of Normandy in the movie 'Saving Private Ryan,' while I was shocked and stunned for days after the first viewing... now I find myself playing video games and role playing the very beach moments for kicks. Depressing, but true; I'm too far removed from it. If they were to release a video game of flying air planes into civilian buildings, I would vomit at the site and curse the creators... but that may be only because it happened in MY lifetime.

campekenobi
32 ys old.

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 8

- 9/5/2002 3:44:58 AM

RolandRahn_MatrixForum

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/18/2001
From: Beloit, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by campekenobi
[B]

I believe that's the very core. Even with a gripping portrayal of Normandy in the movie 'Saving Private Ryan,' while I was shocked and stunned for days after the first viewing... now I find myself playing video games and role playing the very beach moments for kicks. Depressing, but true; I'm too far removed from it. If they were to release a video game of flying air planes into civilian buildings, I would vomit at the site and curse the creators... but that may be only because it happened in MY lifetime.

campekenobi
32 ys old. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi!

In response to campekenobi:

I disagree on this matter.
It's (in my opinion) not so much the difference between past and present.

Let me give two examples:

1.)
If combat leader is published with a module for 'modern' warfare, and if there would be a scenario taking place during the gulf war (1991) that is created in a way that encourages the human player to choose the Iraqi side, would you curse the creator of that scenario?
(Note: If you or anyone else who reads this is a veteran of that war who would have difficulties playing such a scenario, I do apologize for this post)

2.)
If there would be a game where the player would have to
- rape and murder during the Nanking massacre (1937 (?))
or
- murder people in a nazi concentration camp in the early 40s
or
- torture POWs as a member of unit 731
e.t.c.
would you not curse the author of that game?

I would have little problems playing the Iraqis (apart from the fact that commanding Iraqi troops against Allied troops would be a *very* challeging thing), but I would curse the creator of any game that would, for example, glorify the nazi concentration camps.
A video game where you had to fly a civilian aircraft into a civilian building meets category 2.

In response to 3/2 ACR:
Yes, it's a shame how many people have nearly no knowledge about the past.
And there is little interest in the military past.
Nearly three weeks ago, I visited the "Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung" (best translated as "military technical collection") in Koblenz.
It's a kind of museum in a military area, but it is accessible for civilian visitors, too.
I had missed a train, so I arrived there not 15 minutes before the museum opened but 45 minutes after it opened.
I expected that there would be a large queue and that I would have to wait at least some time before I would be able to enter the overcrowded rooms.
In fact, I had no problem entering the museum....
....the problem was that I had to wait nearly an hour before someone else entered the museum so that I could ask him to make a photo of me in front of a panther :eek:

Kind regards,
Roland
(35 years old)

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 9

- 9/5/2002 5:56:07 AM

campekenobi

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RolandRahn
[B]

2.)
If there would be a game where the player would have to
- rape and murder during the Nanking massacre (1937 (?))
or
- murder people in a nazi concentration camp in the early 40s
or
- torture POWs as a member of unit 731
e.t.c.
would you not curse the author of that game?

Kind regards,
Roland
(35 years old) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hello friend,
Perhaps you missed my point... again, the nazi concentration camp you give is too far removed from my life time. I can't relate really, and though I sympathize, it's different than the current events of 9/11. Lashing out at terrorists might be slightly therapeautic (sp?), I never thought about that... but again, the killing civilian thing is too much.... now I'll admit I've played car games where you drive frantically through a city & even get POINTS for running over people, but I see that as fiction. If I had a friend or relative who died by a car running over them in the city... then it gets closer & more sensitive... do you get where I'm going here???

sincerely,

campekenobi

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 10

- 9/5/2002 7:03:14 AM

RolandRahn_MatrixForum

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/18/2001
From: Beloit, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by campekenobi
[B]

Hello friend,
Perhaps you missed my point... again, the nazi concentration camp you give is too far removed from my life time. I can't relate really, and though I sympathize, it's different than the current events of 9/11. Lashing out at terrorists might be slightly therapeautic (sp?), I never thought about that... but again, the killing civilian thing is too much.... now I'll admit I've played car games where you drive frantically through a city & even get POINTS for running over people, but I see that as fiction. If I had a friend or relative who died by a car running over them in the city... then it gets closer & more sensitive... do you get where I'm going here???

sincerely,

campekenobi [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi campekenobi,

I think I got your point.
The concentration camp (a very extreme example), Nanking e.t.c. are far away (far away = It happened more than a decade before we were born) but it still would make me sick if someone would create a game glorifying these crimes.
And I sincerely hope that the next generations will see the terrorist attacks of September 11 in the same light (also much more people were murdered in the examples I provided).

My main line was the difference between a crime and a 'normal' military action (Iraqi troops fighting against US troops in 1991 or German troops fighting against US troops in 1944).

But I underestimated the shock of september 11.....
These dreadfull hours when the unimaginable happened.
I remember that the first thing I learned was a message on my answering machine when I returned home (different time zone here) that I should turn on the TV immediately because of that horrible things that happened in the US.
I decided to turn on the computer and connect to the internet (I believed that something would have happened that would only be send during the news every hour and that in the internet, I would get the information much quicker) and learned that the seconed tower had collapsed, too (!!!).
I think that the shock was much greater for those who got the news from the beginning...
The disbelief that this couldn't be a terrorist attack - no human being would deliberately fly a plane into a civilian building....
And after this, whenever you learned that the worst imaginable terrorist attack has happened, it got worser.....
And, of course, the shock was worser for those living closer to the side of this tragedy than for those who lived farther away.

And my example for desert storm in 91 was a bad one....
There was no shock for the US that could even far be compared to 9/11.
That an ally far away was invaded.... happened before.
The most tragic event for the US was when a scud killed (more than 2 dozen?) soldiers....
But there was no such shock not only due to the smaller number but also because in war, you expect such things to happen.
Even if 3000 US servicemen would have been killed during Desert Storm, it would have been a shock but not a shock that could even far be compared to the shock of 9/11.
No one expected on the morning of September 11 that it would be the day that changed history...

And I agree with you that later generations won't understand this shock.
Could anyone in the US have thought on Dec 7, 1941 that half a century later, there would be strategy games were you can choose the Japanese side attacking Pearl harbour?

Still, I hope that even in the far future no sane person will play a game where you are encouraged to fly the hijaked planes (perhaps even "better" than the terrorists did).

I think I got your point but I still hope that you are wrong about the possibility that the next generations will play games where you are Mohammed Atta....

Kind regards,
Roland

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 11

- 9/5/2002 7:09:40 AM

tohoku

Posts: 415
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: at lunch, thanks.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red
It may be different mentality. What the 9/11 hijackers and WW2 suicide pilots have in common is the belief in the idea. Kamikaze crashed their planes thinking of going to heaven, similar to the 9/11. Soviet pilots preferred crashing into an enemy convoy to parashuting and being captured due to idiology and belief they were fighitng for their country's survival etc.. Sacrifice of one for many.

[/QUOTE]

There are some very good books on the mindset of kamikaze pilots, as well as those in the Soviet and German airforces that conducted ramming missions. It was, amongst the majority anyway, substantially different from what you suggest above.
Please read some of them.

tohoku
YMMV

(in reply to 3/2 ACR)

Post #: 12