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German 1941 GC - normal - Finished (DV - T56) - 12/27/2010 11:36:47 PM

CharonJr

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Hi,

after my first try I essentially wasted too much time I started a new game in order to apply some of the lessons learned.

Basically I am looking for any critique/insight that can lead to me improving my play since I really like this game, but am afraid that despite having read the manual, played a few scenarios and 1 GC till turn 12 there is still a lot I am missing.

This is the situation in the north after the first turn.

Basically I tried to create a small pocket west of Riga and since I faced very serious opposition around Leningrad in my earlier game I have decided that I need another armored corps (LVII panzer) from AGC up in the north.

With the number of hexes between the trapped soviets in the western pcoket I am fairly certain that those will stay encirecled, the eastern pocket might be penetrated, but I am not really worried about this since it would mean less Soviets further east.

The bridgehead across the Daugava might enable me to rush towards Pskov, but for the moment I will try not to overextend my armor too much.

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 2/6/2011 11:31:21 AM >

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/27/2010 11:45:07 PM

CharonJr

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Center:

I have been able to create a fairly large pocket here which should be fairly secure, too, due to the terrain at the weaker points (swamp/rough/woods) and it being unlikely that the Soviets will be able (or even willing) to enter my ZOCs.

I will try to avoid entering the marshes this time and rather try to encircle any Soviet units left in there.

The main goal is Minsk with trying to form a pocket around Smolensk, Mogilev and Gomel later on.

Part of the infantry will stay behind to clear the pocket while the remaining forces will head east as fast as possible with some emphasis on trying to keep my armor (at least some of them) away from the enemy lines to keep them in good fighting condition.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/27/2010 11:54:03 PM

CharonJr

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South:

In managed to reach my Romanian allies, but had to use XXIV panzer from AGC to create the breach and secure the line.

With another panzer corps from AGC already being given to AGN I feel that AGC is lacking some armor for its own tasks, but being able to drive towards Leningrad faster and pocket those troops in the south is worth it IMO.

I will try to create another pocket around Odessa later on while the other forces move towards Cherkassy.

My main goal is to recreate the large pocket between Gomel and Cherkassy as in my earlier game, but this time without additional delays due to me trying to create an even larger pocket.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 12:07:13 AM

CharonJr

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T1 results:

The air campaign has been fairly successfull, especially with the 2k bombers destroyed. This was achieved mainly by focussing on the bomber bases and only going after the Soviet fighters with tac bombers in order to clear the way for the level bombers.

I think I even got some bombers left in the end, but didnt feel that the additional destroyed fighters from more sorties would have been worth the risk of losing more planes. But since the already much discussed weakness in the air war part of WitE I might have actually been smarter to have continued bombing.

I like the number of Soviet AFVs taken out, but have not really paid any attention if this is a large number or fairly low for turn 1.

Basically at the moment everything is still working as I hoped it would, but on turn 1 there is not really that much that can go wrong.

It will be interesting to see if the Soviets will try to break the eastern pocket in the north and how aggressive they will try to deal with my armored forces around Minsk.

I hope to be able to create another small pocket around Minsk before heading towards Smolensk/Mogilev/Gomel.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 5:06:00 PM

CharonJr

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Overall strategic objectives for the first season:

1. Take out as many Soviet units as possible (should help with later advances and during the Soviet counterattacks in the winter of 41).
2. Isolate and capture Leningrad before the winter hits.
3. Establish a line of defense for the first winter along Leningrad-Smolensk-Kharkov-Rostov (with some space east of it to trade for time during the winter).

The main problem I see is balancing those objectives, especially pocketing a large number of Soviet forces vs. gaining territory. While reducing the number of Soviet units should help with making progress I am afraid that the effects might show too late to really exploit them.

Mainly I will try to do this by creating some large pockets rather than a lot of small ones, hopefully allowing my armored units some rest before going for the next push.

CharonJr

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 11:32:52 PM

CharonJr

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T2 north:

Clearing the 2 pockets around Riga yielded 9 captured Soviet units with about 46k men, 600 guns and 500 AFV, using 5 divisions.

Air recon shows that Pskov is fairly lightly defended and there are a lot of juicy airbases and HQs along the way, so I decide to go for it.

I run into heavier than expected resistance and fail to take Pskov, but manage to get 1st Panzer to form a bridgehead.

Since Leningrad is a main objective for '41 and I have seen how hard it can be to crack this nut I am thinking about going for a wide move to the south and east around Novgorod and try to link up with the Finns in the north in order to isolate Leningrad.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 11:39:36 PM

CharonJr

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T2 center:

Crushing/deflating the 2 pockets west of Minsk yielded about 25 additional Soviet units with 149k men, 1800 guns and 1700 afv.

Due to me not wanting the delay the bulk of my infantry the task of clearing the pockets mainly falls to 9th Army while the other infantry divisions try to form frontlines to the east and along the marshes.

Minsk is surrounded without placing any unit right next to it, this should give (at least some of) my units some rest while still in decent range for supplies.

With AGC being fairly short on armor now it might be difficult to form the Smolensk-Mogilev-Gomel pocket I am thinking about, but now that some armor became unfrozen in the south I might be able to move some of AGC's armor back north during the next turns, maybe even via the Cherkassy-Gomel pocket that is still on my mind.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 11:41:51 PM

CharonJr

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T2 south:

In the south the small pocket was crushed and I started to tighten the pocket around Lvov, again trying not to get too many infantry divisions involved.

For the Lvov pocket I make an exception to my usual rule of setting % required to fly below 110% since some of those Soviet units are still fairly strong (which is another reason for not spending too many forces there this turn, it should get easier to crush the pocket the longer it lasts). In addition I tend to work with deliberate attacks here.

16 units with 90k men, 1000 guns and 700 afv surrender in the southern pockets and there is roughly the same number of units still trapped.

With the AI having formed a pretty decent line from the marshes to Rovno, some holes in the line around Proskurov and me wanting to try an encirclement ending at Odessa anyway I widen the breach south of Proskurov and push some armored units through up to Vinnitsa.

I plan to start an armored thrust towards Odessa along the western bank of the Bug the following turn if the situation allows for this. With level bombers and transports dropping fuel mainly in the south it might work.

I made a small breakthrough towards Kishnev, hoping to lure some Soviet units into the potential pocket by trying to contain the thrust and defend Kishinev.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/28/2010 11:50:29 PM

CharonJr

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T2 results:

I have been more agressive than I had initially planed, mainly by driving my armor harder than planed.

Trying to get Pskov and opening up a potential drive towards Odessa on the next turn were too tempting for me.

Overall I am fairly satisfied with this turn.

Reducing the southern pocket took its toll on my troops with about 8k losses, but then the Soviets lost 57 units, 320k men, 4.2k guns and 3k AFVs.

I think I like the 10 armored divisions the Soviets lost most, but they still have about 9.3k AFVs vs. my 3.3k.

And with about 30 units currently stuck in quite secure pockets the Soviet MP advantage should continue to decline, most likely the AFV advantage will get smaller, too.

It will be interesting to see if the AI will recognise the threat it is facing in the south.

Question: Do you think that it might be possible to take out about 3.5-4 million Soviets while still being able to gain the other objectives I have outlined above?

CharonJr

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/29/2010 11:41:10 PM

CharonJr

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Turn 2 follow-up:

During moving my airbases at the end of turn 2 I realised that I have forgotten to move the 3 infantry divisions I got earlier and railed them together with the 1 division I got on turn 2 towards AGN in order to help with the push on Leningrad.

7 additional Soviet units with 73k men, 600 guns and 300 AFVs did surrender during the AI phase.

T3 north:

Due to fairly low supply levels my attack on Pskov got pretty much stuck in its tracks. I move some fighters and Stukas closer to the front for air support and 1. Panzer (already across the river and supported by 280 fighters and 90 bombers) manages to open up the hex SW of Pskov routing/retreating 2 Soviet divisions.

6. Panzer enters this hex and (supported my 280 and 120 bombers) forces the 2 Soviets regiments + 1 division to retreat.

Totenkopf forces the single division NW of Pskov to retreat as well and the way is clear for 3. Mot to occupy Pskov.

The remaining armor/mot divisions in the north will rest up during this turn, moving them away from the frontline in some cases.

The units who made it across the river will be in fairly bad shape, but I am fairly confident that at least one of them will be able to withstand possible counterattacks. The other resting units should enable me to push further, especially with some infantry getting closer to the front.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/29/2010 11:43:19 PM

CharonJr

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T3 center:

In the center I get a nasty surprise when I see that armor division having defended Minsk was able to move through 1 of my ZOCs and enter into another, essentially breaking the pocket by itself, but the unit is fairly weakened and routs after a deliberate infantry attack.

The last remains of the pocket to the west of Minsk/north of Brest-Litovsk are crushed and 4 units with 24k men and 500 guns end up as POWs. The 6 regiments who performed the clearup will be reformed into 2 divisions next turn.

With the way to Gomel looking fairly clear after recon I decide to rush 47. Panzer towards it, essentially trading the time it will take to resupply them for getting across the Dnepr without having to face serious defenses. Just before crossing the river they run into a Soviet Infantry division right on the other side that my recon have missed, oh well, no free lunch here...

After running into some airborne troops with 7. Panzer which I hoped were an HQ and keeping the supply situation in mind I decide that XXXIX Panzer will take this turn to rest up.

4th Army is tasked with keeping the Soviet units inside the marshes in check, but considering the overall progress I think that sooner or later the Soviets will start to pull back from the marches.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/29/2010 11:45:20 PM

CharonJr

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T3 south:

I put some corps directly under OKH (mainly tasked with holding the front south of the marshes and clearing up the pocket) in order to lighten the load on AGS, but it is still way over its command limit. When I think about it now it might have been better to place a complete army under OKH instead of just corps.

Reducing the pockets yielded 18 destroyed Soviet units with 99k men, 1100 guns and 1200 AFVsand with Lvov and Chernovtsy captured it should get even more easy next turn, freeing up some units to head towards the front and apply pressure there.

Sadly the AI seems to have smelled the pocket I am preparing here and moved some units away from the front, but I will try to push right through to Odessa anyway.

After removing some HQs and diverting my thrust a bit more to the east 16. Panzer manages to reach Odessa with no MPs left. About 30 units are inside this pocket.

XXXVI and XXIV Panzer (both corps from AGC) are resting up in the meantime. I still plan to move them back towards AGC again, maybe being able to form another nice pocket in the process.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/29/2010 11:51:11 PM

CharonJr

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T3 results:

26 Soviets units with 135k men, 1900 guns and 1300 AFVs were destroyed this turn, bringing up the totals to 114 units with 752k/9.7k/6.1k vs. German losses of 48k/0.4k/0.2k.

The Soviets are still ahead of Germany (without allies) by about 540k troops, 4.5k guns, 5k AFVs and 5.2k planes.

Progress in the north is getting slow due to supplies, the same happens in the center, but in both cases the infantry are not that far behind. The bridgehead at Pskov should be fairly secure now, but having not been able to cross the Dnepr at Gomel will hurt.

Progress in the south has been very good with cutting off the Soviet units west of Odessa. Bringing the 2 panzerkorps from AGC really did help there while in the center their absence can be felt.

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/29/2010 11:52:10 PM >

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/30/2010 4:12:29 PM

CharonJr

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Just a question here: Is moving the 2 armored corps to link up with the Finns in the north a viable move to cut off Leningrad or is the supply/counterattack situation too bad to really try?

CharonJr

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/30/2010 11:28:46 PM

CharonJr

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An interesting situation came up during turn 4 in the south:

I have 4 and 1/2 armored/motorised corps down in the south which are fairly well rested, I think I might be able to encircle the Soviets to the east of Vinnitsa while taking Kirovograd, Cherkassy and Kiev as well in the process.

But I am worried about the close proximity of the Soviets around Zhitomir which might be able to break my pocket. Maybe moving my line closer to the units around Zhitomir might help since the units in the pocket would have to cross additional hexes controlled by me.

Would you expect any serious attempt to break the pocket from east of the line of Kiev-Cherkassy-Kirovograd?

I doubt that there might be danger coming from this way due to the Dnepr, but am not sure.

I pretty much flew recon for every hex down there and there seem to be no additional Soviet units around.

Any ideas?

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 12/30/2010 11:33:07 PM >

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 1:45:11 AM

randallw

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From what people say, the computer does not make strong attempts to open pockets; instead it tries some magical transportation tech that gets isolated units out of the pockets.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 7:57:27 AM

Grotius

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Well, it breaks pockets against me the old-fashioned way -- by moving, or by attacking my units. But then, I'm playing the Sov side, so my pockets have been flimsy to begin with.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 10:30:02 AM

CharonJr

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At the end of turn 3 another 3 Soviet units with 32k men, 400 guns and 100 AFVs surrendered.

For some reason Eugen von Schobert is dismissed and Georg von Sodenstern takes command of 11th Army, but since he has better political and admin ratings I dont mind ;)

T4 north:

The Finns start to put some pressure on the Soviets, but nothing to write home about.

Armored units break out of the Pskov bridgehead and start to move towards lake Ilmen, planing to pass south of it and swing northwards then in order to link up with the Finnish forces.

Due to the bad supply situation (closest railhead is marked in red) the remaining armored forces will remain largely in place and rest, but infantry is close to Pskov now and should be able to secure the line of advance on the next turn.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 10:31:22 AM

CharonJr

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T4 center:

With bomber support a bridgehead was gained on the eastern side of the Dnepr close to Gomel by 18. Panzer, the rest of the corps is resting up in the meantime to secure and broaden the bridgehead on the next turn. The supply situation around here is fairly bad was well, actually made worse by me having made a mistake in planing my railhead repairs heading towards Minsk (didnt repair the rails SW of Minsk - marked red - essentially preventing any further progress towards Minsk till this segment is repaired).

Only little progress is made towards Smolensk, while XXXIX Panzer is still in decent shape the lack of supply makes me delay anything but light attacks to get my infantry into better positions.

Some additional level bombers are assigned to II Fliegerkorps which is essentially all the planes AGC has at the moment - mainly for fuel transports at the moment.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 10:33:07 AM

CharonJr

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T4 south:

There was a large Soviet retreat to the south of the marshes, allowing my infantry to take Rovno unopposed, the new Soviet positions are around Zhitomir.

The pockets were largely cleared with 21 units destroyed (83k men, 1.1k guns, 0.4k AFVs) and about 7-10 units remaining which should be cleared next turn.

With the way to Kirovograd essentially undefended III and XIV Panzer rush for it and rout the single defending infantry division. With the road clear towards Cherkassy it is taken as well and a bridgehead is established on the other side of the Dnepr.

And with XXIV and XXXVI Panzer rested up I am able to take Kiev and secure a bridgehead across the Dnepr there, too, as well as creating a new pocket between Cherkassy and Vinnitsa, trapping around 30 units most likely including some HQs in addition to some airbases.

A tight formation is kept close to the Soviet forces around Zhitomir and to the SE of the pocket, forcing me to keep the rear fairly lightly defended, but the Dnepr should help me here.

With the Soviet position around Zhitomir being threatened by encirclement, too, I think that the Soviets will retreat towards Chernikov.

16. Panzer attacks Odessa and the mot division defending it surrenders, keeping control away from the Soviets.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 10:45:17 AM

CharonJr

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T4 results:

Supply is my main concern at the moment, part of it due to mistakes I made, part of it due to the decent progress of my forces (especially in the north).

The pocket in the south looks promissing, but I am a bit worried about the Soviets being able to crack it from the east (but consider it unlikely due to the Dnepr).

While Soviet losses are still fairly low the new pocket in the south and mopping up the remaining forces in the smaller pocket should help with this during the next turn.

In the north the focus will stay on isolating Leningrad.

In the center expanding the bridgehead at Gomel and trying to create a pocket between Gomel and Smolensk will be the main objectives.

I will still try to bring back the armored corps lend from AGC to AGS back to AGC, trying to form a new pocket with this move, but this will happen on turn 6 at best due the armor having to rest up first.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 11:24:17 AM

CharonJr

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And thank you for the input, I am still busy reshuffeling airbases and HQs (and looking for units I missed moving before), but think I should be able to get in another turn later today.

CharonJr

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 6:06:12 PM

CharonJr

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T4 follow-up:

8 additional units surrendered with 78k men, 700 guns and 600 AFVs.

T5 north:

The 2 Soviet units in Hanko are attacked and surrender, leaving Finnland clear of Soviet forces.

Another 2 Soviet divisions are isolated and the Finns should take Vyborg next turn, maybe trapping another Soviet division there.

Tallinn is taken without any opposition.

The first infantry divisions are crossing to Pskov and provide a screen to the north displacing some routed Soviet divisions with additional infantry providing cover at the southern part of the small coridor.

I run into some pretty heavy defenses to the south of lake Ilmen, due to this LVII Panzer tried to go around it on the norhtern route via Novgorod. Novogorod is defended by a 2 CV 14 (total) infantry division, but a hasty attack from 2 armored divisions forces them to rout/retreat.

LVI keeps resting after its earlier push, hopefully being able in helping with cutting off the defenders around lake Ilmen on the next turn.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 6:07:58 PM

CharonJr

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T5 center:

My infantry starts to slowly grind its way towards Smolensk with deliberate attacks, supported by air vs. stronger/more entrenched units.

The defenders of Vitebsk are forced to retreat and XXXIX Panzer starts its run to Smolensk. Smolensk is reached, but seems to be fairly well defended stopping the drive for now.

The push towards Gomel is started as well. The bridgehead is broadened and 2 infantry corps are put across the Dnepr. Due to the supply situation the armor will have to stay in place for another turn.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 6:09:21 PM

CharonJr

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T5 south:

Good news, the pocket held, together with the earlier encirclements this might provide me with more limited resistance in the south and together with 2 bridgeheads across the Dnepr still in place (Cherkassy/Kiev) reaching Rostov might be possible.

The pockets are reduced, forcing 32 units with 179k troops, 1.7k guns and 1.2k AFVs to surrender with about 10 additional units still trapped.

I occupy Odessa, despite having to do it by "wasting" the fuel of 16. Panzer this turn, since it is a port I think that it will serve as a line of supply for my forces.

edit: was the T4 screenshot before

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 12/31/2010 6:11:31 PM

CharonJr

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T5 results:

The heavy defense around lake Ilmen came as a surprise, but with 3 armored corps in the north I am still fairly confident that I should be able to reach the Finns.

In the center will will be interesting to see if the AI smells the start of a pocket and pull back from the Dnepr or stand fast.

The south stays the most interesting area and with the armor mostly resting up I might try to create a new pocket by heading to Gomel from the south with XXIV and XXXVI Panzer.

Despite the losses overall Soviet troopslevels are still on the rise, but at least the number of AFVs and planes is coming down.

BTW, are plane losses from overruning airbases only shown in the total numbers? I only destroyed 308 planes this turn, but the Soviet numbers declined a lot more than this...

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/1/2011 12:35:09 AM

randallw

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There's a certain amount of planes destroyed by flying accidents.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/1/2011 12:52:32 AM

CharonJr

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I know that the Soviets have rookie pilots, but 1300 planes less than the turn before and I only destroyed 300 of those. Even without considering production 1000 destroyed planes via training/flying accidents seem excessive ;)

CharonJr

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Post #: 28

RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/1/2011 1:43:33 AM

CharonJr

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First of all: Happy New Year! (for Europe at least;) )

T5 follow-up:

The Soviets lost an additional 2 units, 28k men, 300 guns and 100 AFVs.

And while moving my airbases I saw that I had missed attacking 2 divisions blocking my way from Tallinn towards Leningrad, both fights were won and the defenders were routed.

T6 north:

In Finnland the 2 isolated units are destroyed and another 2 units are isolated in Vyborg.

With the northern way around lake Ilmen blocked as well I will try a pocket to the west of Novgorod now.

XXXXI and LVII Panzer is pulled back from the frontline for some rest/supplies.

South of Pskov I am clearing the way for my railhead.

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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/1/2011 1:45:35 AM

CharonJr

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T6 center:

I go for another pocket south of Smolensk, but with just 2 armored corps available, which are fairly low on supply as well, this pocket is very flimsy. But at least I have been able to displace about a dozen airbases, destroying about 500 damaged planes on the ground.

The pocket's weakest point is in the area of the river Oster. But even if they are able to reopen the gap I am fairly confident that I can reseal it on the next turn.

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