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More Details Please - 9/1/2002 4:41:44 AM   
Black Cat

 

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I may have missed this in scanning the posts but could you provide more detail on the actual game.

Anything on unit size, Platoons, Companies, Regts.

Is the differences in both sides C&C modeled in anyway, same with fatigue, breakdowns, that kinda stuff.

How will Air, both fixed wing & the "copters" be included.

Will Chemical weapons be modeled.

And last I would really hope you would consider some form of Campaign Game, where losses and fatigue are carried forward.

Please consider the ability to let the player name unit CO`s, it`s fun, as well as a way to make you care about your cyber troopers.

FWIW, I have HPS`s Fuda Gap coming and it will be interesting to see how they approached the subject, as well as how that now rather old game engine deals with Modern Battles. ( not a slam there, I usually like their stuff )

Thanks
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- 9/1/2002 9:05:06 PM   
IronManBeta


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I like game specs the way Napoleon liked constitutions ('short and vague') so as not to hamper my creative urges down the road...

1. The short answer to your question is that this game is a revitalization and modernization of the venerable Simulations Canada designs based on the "Main Battle Tank" series of 1980 - 81. These games were the jewels of the entire SimCan catalog - apart of course from the absolutely fabulous "Storm" series that were the output, cough, cough, of yours truly back then.

2. So what was MBT? The official blurb was:

"1.0 INTRODUCTION: It is 1100 hours on November 11th, 1996. The area is central Germany, roughly the region bounded by the Harz Mountains, the Rhur, Frankfurt, and the junction of the East German, West German, and Czech borders. You are the Soviet, West German, or American commander of a regiment/ brigade or battalion. The hypothesis is that World War Three has just broken out.

MAIN BATTLE TANK: CENTRAL GERMANY (MBTCG) is a fast paced, command orientated game of modem grand tactical combat. Your main maneuver elements will be companies, though some specialist units, particularly reconnaissance, will be platoons. Air strikes, helicopters, off map artillery, and even nuclear attacks, may be on call. Your mission will be to hold or to take a geographic local within the combat area while minimizing casualties to your forces and maximizing damage to the enemy."

Clearly I am not the only fan of Napoleon around here making games.

3. SimCan and Matrix signed a deal last fall. The blurb that Matrix came up with was:

"FLASHPOINT GERMANY - Matrix Games overhauls two classic Simulations Canada NATO vs. Warsaw Pact wargames into a full campaign. Originally a high speed, command-oriented, viewpoint style study of the first clashes of a Third World War in Europe, the system has been transformed into a Windows-compatible wargame with high-resolution graphics, expanded Orders of Battle and the option to play over the Internet and by email. Flashpoint Germany covers fighting across Germany in fourteen included scenarios, but the heart of the simulation is the “build your own” system that allows you to design conflicts between British, U.S., West German and Soviet forces."

4. Thats a little more specific but still not too concrete. I wrote this up when the FPG forum was launched:

"- the game is "grand tactical" (not tactical, not operational or strategic). In practice this means that we are far enough removed from individual vehicles and men that unit facing does not matter. These subunits will either be 'mission ready' or not, there is no tracking of internal state at this level. Weapon ranges still matter though (so it is not fully operational) and logistics just barely matter (so it is not strategic).

- maneuver units are companies and specialist platoons (engineering, supply, recce, etc). Each player will typically command a brigade on the attack or a (reinforced) battalion on the defence.

- the map is a stretch of the German countryside extending about 20 km by 15 km. Position is resolved to within 500m and is handled via a grid rather than a hexmap. This is how the original SimCan did it, and indeed how the military actually does it now.

- the game can last up to 36 hours resolved in 30 minute turns (approximately!) but very few will last that long. In most scenarios the two sides will very cautiously try to feel out where the other side is located and then mount a rush to seize key terrain, get into the rear, or whatever. The unit density is way too low for a continuous line so the action is more reminiscent, say, of the swirling action of North Afrika in 1942 than of the WW2 western front. Given the super lethal nature of modern weapons, this period of close contact can be quite short. Then the players sort out what happened and if enough force remains try again. The game ends automatically when one side or the other drops below 20% of original strength. In the original game this could often happen within two hours of first contact!

- the viewpoint for the game is that of the overall commander. He is assumed to have a competent staff and is _not_ burdened with micromanagement of every little detail. (There are other games out there that do a fine job of that already.) We are trying to simulate the command experience in a way that is accessible to non-professionals and indeed makes for a fun and interesting experience for everyone. Anyone familiar with the old SimCan designs will know what I am talking about.... "



- The game is now set in 1989 although other "flashpoint" years will be added after the first release and as research allows.

- I am keenly interested in the air, helo, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear attack rules. They will all be there but at the moment are looking pretty simple. My intent is to get them in and working at a base level, and then ramp them based on player feedback. The viewpoint is that of the brigadier general and we will try to portray it in terms that he would see. This is definitely not a simulator where the player has to micromanage every little detail. There are other games out there I believe that offer this already. We want, dare I say it, to create a fast-moving, fun experience that models these things in an elegant and accurate, but not terribly time-consuming way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

- Campaign games. Sigh. If I was Superman than I would promise it, but realistically it will just have to wait a bit. There is so much to do and test and tweek just to get the base game out in a reasonable time that I just have to slip certain features to a future version. Someday though, yes. I plan to be working on this game for years yet.... It is a platform for the future and I expect to grow by leeps and bounds as time goes on.

- Renaming units ought to be easy to add. Creating a name for the player within the game also ought to be quick and easy. I'll stick them on the list. Certainly there is nothing more aggravating than seeing the wrong unit designations time after time and not being able to correct them!

Back to the coding, cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 2
Thank You - 9/2/2002 12:08:29 AM   
Black Cat

 

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Realize now how busy you are , and are about to become, so your time was appreciated.

Short is good. :D

Not to start off as a PITA here, but a Campaign is really just linked scenarios, with losses, and if modeled, fatigue states carried forward.

I`ve always thought that it`s both a much more realistic way to " Wargame" and adds another, very desirable level of decision making to the Game process in that the player needs to keep reserves, be careful in just blowing everything into the first fight, with no regard for losses or the next day`s fight.

To my mind sucessful Games, for me, are about " Decision Points"
that the designer forces you to confront ( hopefully in a intelligent manner ) so you truly are a Commander weighing pro and cons of your actions, instead of a spectator after a few simple move-attack-see losses phase.

Just IMHO, based on lots of Computer Wargame player input I`ve heard and seen over the years, it`s a often requested feature that seems to translate into sales.

In fact many of the revamped free Games Matrix offers include it as a new feature.

Of course I have no idea how hard that is to implement, but starting the Game Engine from scratch might be the time to consider it.... just a thought.

Well that wasn`t short, but I won`t belabor it in the future.

Thanks very much for your original response and Good Luck.

(in reply to Black Cat)
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- 9/2/2002 3:23:41 PM   
Pantherblaster

 

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Sounds nice, but I would like to be able to pick more countris than just the US, UK, Germany, and USSR. Canada, Belgium, France and my own country forinstance. If not in the actual scenarios than at the least in an editor. It would loose a lot of appeal to me, personally, if my own country would not be involved.

Regards,

Pantherblaster:cool:

_____________________________

"War is the continuation of politics by all other means"-Vom Kriege, Carl von Clausewitz.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 4
- 9/2/2002 9:08:56 PM   
IronManBeta


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pantherblaster
[B]Sounds nice, but I would like to be able to pick more countris than just the US, UK, Germany, and USSR. Canada, Belgium, France and my own country for instance. [/B][/QUOTE]

My goal, in time, is everything from the Arctic Circle to the Dardanelles. The research burden though is mind boggling. What is your home country and are there any good web sites you can point us toward?

Release 1 will be as described, but in fairly short order we will open it up so that scenarios can be made for every nationality.

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 5
- 9/3/2002 1:54:16 AM   
Pantherblaster

 

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I'm from The Netherlands, and I think you should contact Yo van der Pluim on this site, I'm sure he can give you enough links regarding my countries 1989 units and equipment.
Appreciate the fact that there is a serious effort in a WWIII: Cold War game though, so thanks for that!!!

Regards,

Pantherblaster:cool:

_____________________________

"War is the continuation of politics by all other means"-Vom Kriege, Carl von Clausewitz.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 6
- 9/4/2002 12:41:00 AM   
IronManBeta


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pantherblaster
[B]I'm from The Netherlands [/B][/QUOTE]

Doh! I could have just looked to the left because it said Nederlands right under your name! Sorry about that. Maybe I've been working too hard....

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 7
- 9/4/2002 2:17:21 AM   
Pantherblaster

 

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Ah, never mind!!!

Regards,

Pantherblaster:cool:

_____________________________

"War is the continuation of politics by all other means"-Vom Kriege, Carl von Clausewitz.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 8
- 9/5/2002 10:39:28 PM   
scimitar

 

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Happy to heard from you again, Pantherblaster!

Like you, I wish to see our countries involved in the action.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 9
- 9/6/2002 4:26:54 AM   
byron13


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by scimitar
[B]Happy to heard from you again, Pantherblaster!

Like you, I wish to see our countries involved in the action. [/B][/QUOTE]

I trust that you mean only in the game and not for real!?

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 10
- 9/7/2002 1:13:05 PM   
scimitar

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by byron13
[B]

I trust that you mean only in the game and not for real!? [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, if you think to a war between The Netherlands and Belgium, we already and regularly have it: it's soccer!:D :D :D

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 11
- 9/7/2002 4:48:36 PM   
Pantherblaster

 

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It's a rather one-sided affair usually though!:D

Great to see you are still around here aswell Scimitar!!!

I don't post as often as I used to, but I still do sometimes on the Art of Wargaming Forum.

Regards,

Pantherblaster:cool:

_____________________________

"War is the continuation of politics by all other means"-Vom Kriege, Carl von Clausewitz.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 12
Re: More Details Please - 10/9/2002 12:13:56 AM   
Frank W.

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Black Cat
[B]

FWIW, I have HPS`s Fuda Gap coming and it will be interesting to see how they approached the subject, as well as how that now rather old game engine deals with Modern Battles. ( not a slam there, I usually like their stuff )

Thanks [/B][/QUOTE]

do you like "fulda gap" ???

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 13
Since you asked.... - 10/9/2002 5:23:22 PM   
SwampYankee68


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I bought Fulda Gap and I can't stand it. It is basically HPS' Panzer Campaigns with modern equipment and a few new twists. Although some people love PzrCamps, I find that the way FG (and I am told PzrCamps do too) handles op fire drives me mad. One moves and shoots and waits forever while op fires are resolved one at a time - (can't be sped up), then moves again, waits, repeat, repeat, repeat. After playing ALLOT ot Talonsoft's W@W series, I got tired of it's engine for the same reason. FG is WORSE! Also, I believe that they have WAY understated the effectiveness of artillery. The "3D" map is useless as you can't see terrain features such as bridges. I REALLY tried to like this game due to the subject matter, but I can't. I've been waiting for a good modern wargame since I stopped playing SSI's Mech Brigade, and FG is not it. :( I'm hoping that Flashpoint Germany and the modern module for CL will slake my thirst.... :p

_____________________________

"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!"

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 14
- 10/9/2002 7:59:18 PM   
byron13


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I'm a fan of the Panzer Campaigns series and am hoping that they will put out one for Market/Garden. But Swamp Yankee is right on with his comments. I really wanted to like this game as well, but it seems sterile, and the Panzer Campaigns engine just doesn't work as well in modern combat. For me, it does not hold my interest as much as the other games in the series.

As Swamp Yankee says, artillery would seem to be underrated. Having an MRLS battery firing on a tank regiment should do more than inflict one or two vehicular losses. But the entire combat system, which was designed for WWII intensity, seems to understate the intensity and violence of modern war and, thus, understates the losses. The game also seems a little sterile because each side only gets basic combat units and there are none of the more colorful units. For example, a U.S. Division gets the standard X number of infantry and tank battalions, a cav squadron, four or five artillery battalions, two companies of ADA, an engineer battalion, and some aviation support. Corps has another couple of artillery battalions, a little more aviation, and a couple of engineer battalions. The battlefront is a long line of infantry companies and tank companies that are all the same, backed by artillery that is all the same. Not saying it's not realistic, but it doesn't have the character and color that the WWII Panzer Campaign games have with odd TO&Es and weapons systems. Nothing like being an Allied unit in Normandy and being assaulted by a combination of East European conscript garrison battalions, pre-war French tanks, Mk III's, and Tigers. There are also some minor TO&E issues in Fulda Gap. It should be noted that the game, or at least the research, seems to have been largely put together by a German group. I'm not knocking the Germans, but I'm not sure that research -whoever did it - was up to the high standards that many gamers and grognards (board and computer) have come to expect.

I'd stick to the WWII Panzer Campaign series or the Viet Nam squad battles games.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 15
Flow of play - 11/3/2002 9:19:02 PM   
crandall9000

 

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I'm not familiar with many of the games described below but wanted to know how a typical turn would flow. Each turn represents 30 minutes of real time. Does a player have an open-ended amount of time to submit orders or is there a fixed time limit?

(in reply to Black Cat)
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Re: Flow of play - 11/6/2002 6:45:01 AM   
IronManBeta


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by crandall9000
[B]I'm not familiar with many of the games described below but wanted to know how a typical turn would flow. Each turn represents 30 minutes of real time. Does a player have an open-ended amount of time to submit orders or is there a fixed time limit? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I missed this post the first time around!

There is a joint planning phase that can take as long as you like if you are playing solitare, pbem or hot seat. If you are playing over the internet we are planning to stick in a timer with a mutually agreed upon time limit (say 3 to 5 minutes) so as to keep things moving along. That is the principle but I haven't actually worked out all the details yet.

We have pegged turn resolution to take anwhere from 10 to 40 minutes - it depends on what the playtesters try out and come back to me with as a preference. There may or may not be a fixed time in the final game. My vote is for a fixed 30 minutes. A half hour at the company / 500 m scale just feels good to me. You get a meaningful amount of control consistent with the brigade commander viewpoint, but no real opportunity to fall into the trap of trying to micromanage every little detail.

During turn resolution we work out all the lags and timings down to the minute, but the main combat cycle proceeds (generally) in 5 minute increments. Again, this is a viewpoint thing. You are fighting with companies - not individual vehicles - and a certain amount of abstraction is necessary to convey the right feel.

BTW, the entire resolution sequence is recorded to a 'VCR playback' file that can be replayed again if you like. It is critical for PBEM support and might be useful elsewhere as well. Do you think it would be worthwhile to be able to review the last turn's combat resolution again? I live in the present and the writing hand moves ever onward, etc., but others might want to review their culminating victory turn or whatever and savour again the thrill of victory.... We will give it a whirl.

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to Black Cat)
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- 11/6/2002 9:46:04 AM   
crandall9000

 

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[QUOTE]Do you think it would be worthwhile to be able to review the last turn's combat resolution again? [/QUOTE]

Personally, I've never been one for reliving the sequense of battle but it might appeal to others.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 18
- 11/6/2002 12:51:33 PM   
scimitar

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by crandall9000
[B]

Personally, I've never been one for reliving the sequense of battle but it might appeal to others. [/B][/QUOTE]

Crandall,

In fact it appeals to me for just a reason: my best friend (who is French) is an excellent gamer but he plays very slowly... let say I receive his game turns approximatively 2 times per month... So a VCR sequence is excellent to refresh my memory...:D

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 19
- 11/9/2002 1:59:11 AM   
lentullus

 

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[QUOTE]Do you think it would be worthwhile to be able to review the last turn's combat resolution again? [/QUOTE]

It is something I would like to see -- for an entire game. It would be fun, for example, to be able to download saved, completed "game logs" and see how other people have played out games.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 20
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