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Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious hit rate

 
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Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious hit... - 1/6/2011 2:00:09 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Dear all,

Happy new year, I hope everything is well with you and your family.

Sorry to bring this matter up, but there's always been something buggering me - and it still does even after the latest patch, and I wonder why on Earth I'd be the only one to experience it.

Ever used your Devastators and Avengers on low-level (1000,2000 ft) attacks? Ever noticed how often they would hit even smaller boats? Actually, you'll have better hit rates against destroyers an small & fast vessels than dive bombers do, and I am not quite sure it's right, either they're flying from 1000 or doing some glide bombing... At night, my lone avenger squadron may hit several times more than all the other dauntless squadrons put together (which achieve a beautiful zero hit whatever the altitude and the attack method). And even though experience does surely play a role, it is always strange to see a flight of Avengers or Devastators actually put every each of its bombs (!) straight on the target, which is a little bit too extreme to my taste. I just feel uneasy to put my TBs on "carry bombs" anymore, that would feel like cheating my opponent. Problem is, sometimes, you don't have a choice (range for instance) and that could pose a real issue...

Of course, what I say does apply to Kates too, but I have more experience with the former, as I am playing a big scenario with the Allies for some time now.

Of course, I need some hard data collecting effort here to confirm the phenomenon and not look like a fool, but I wondered if anyone has run some tests before on this one?

Your opinion gentlemen?

Thanks in advance!

Fish

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/6/2011 2:03:25 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 2:13:27 AM   
asdicus

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 5/16/2002
From: Surrey,UK
Status: offline 		I have reported several times my concerns about the very high hit rates of torpedo bombers when carrying bombs. It is not just an issue at 2000 feet they can still score 75% hits at 5000 or even 9000 feet ( this is with the early jap kb kates and good pilots). The main issue is that 2e and 4e bombers work fine with plausible hit rates against ships but single engine torp bombers using bombs it seems to go a bit mad. The crew experience can be only average say 50% naval bombing and the problem still occurs. I hope the developers will have chance to look at this at some point.

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 3:22:01 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		If you are experiencing zero hit rates with your dive bombers, make sure you have them set to the right altitude. too low, or too high and they don't dive bomb. I used to have mine set to 17k feet and they had a zero hit rate. After setting them to 10k feet, they hit like I expect them to.

No comment on the TB issue. I generally have mine set to range 6, so they don't fly at max range.

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 3:30:32 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Aye Thanks Bradley, but don't worry about that (I should have pointed it out in the original post), everyone (TBs and DBs alike) already tried to bomb at every altitude known to man in my several months-long game. The DB abysmal hit rate I was talking about was achieved at night, which is not strange at all to me - what is strange was that TBs were better at hitting stuff than them in every situation, including this one.

To be more accurate about what I did with my TBs used as bombers so far, I am talking about level-bombing hit rates, whatever the altitude was between 1k and 6k.

Sometimes it feels like my TBs hit better with level bombing than when they glide bomb from higher, actually


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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 5:27:46 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

If you are experiencing zero hit rates with your dive bombers, make sure you have them set to the right altitude. too low, or too high and they don't dive bomb. I used to have mine set to 17k feet and they had a zero hit rate. After setting them to 10k feet, they hit like I expect them to.




Which is kind of silly, as 17,000 feet was exactly the altitude the US Dive Bombers were flying at Midway.

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 6:06:39 AM   
Sredni

 

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I was thinking just the other day what a pain it was to train torpedo bombers in navB as well, maby this is a function to let fully trained TB pilots still achieve worthwhile results when carrying bombs without having to go crazy training up NavB in addition to NavT.

My dive bombers train in NavB (up to 70+), NavSearch (70+), ASW (60+), and Ground bombing (60+) (for those port attacks). If we could train TB pilots in NavT, navSearch, ASW, and ground without also needing to train NavB it would make them less of a pain to train up.

So as a result TB pilots with decent NavB (or lownav?) skill are outperforming expectations.

^Just a wild theory and wishful thinking heh. If they're outperforming divebombers then I agree something isn't quite right. I just havn't really seen anything like this. I tend to send my carriers to replenish if they expend their torpedoes, so the only bombing I see TB's make are during ground attacks or during those occasions when they just happen to decided to carry bombs for no reason.

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 6:21:32 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

I just havn't really seen anything like this. I tend to send my carriers to replenish if they expend their torpedoes, so the only bombing I see TB's make are during ground attacks or during those occasions when they just happen to decided to carry bombs for no reason.


Yes I can understand why, myself I didn't come to this kind of phenomenon before I decided to use specifically TBs with bombs to save torpedoes.
Fortunately, the sheer power of torpedoes and the relative lack of power of 500 pounders make that most Allied player would not take such a decision during a carrier battle - this and the fact that they do believe (as I did) that the chances for TBs to hit the target at 2000 ft should be close to nil. But have them make that mistake once, and we'll be left in disarray by the result: should we ever do it again?

Maybe the last patch changed that, but if you pick up an early-war VT and send it against Japanese destroyers at 1000 or 3000 ft in an home-made testbed, I think the thing will be quite easy to replicate if it actually exists



quote:

ORIGINAL: asdicus

I have reported several times my concerns about the very high hit rates of torpedo bombers when carrying bombs. It is not just an issue at 2000 feet they can still score 75% hits at 5000 or even 9000 feet ( this is with the early jap kb kates and good pilots). The main issue is that 2e and 4e bombers work fine with plausible hit rates against ships but single engine torp bombers using bombs it seems to go a bit mad. The crew experience can be only average say 50% naval bombing and the problem still occurs. I hope the developers will have chance to look at this at some point.


Exactly, that's indeed what I can witness in my games so far. The Kates are the obvious first culprits you come across because of their practical range, as when I played the Coral Sea scenario, Yorktown got hammered with 250kg bombs from 9 hex away by Kates bombing @ 17,000ft or so... The spectacle is sometimes a real trauma, especially when you're on the wrong end of the lens ^^

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/6/2011 9:55:19 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 6:13:22 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Yes, there is a known quirk in the code that makes TB uber-accurate during normal bombing attacks. Not only at low altitudes (anything is accurate at 1k), even at 6k they might be more dangerous with bombs than with torps, depending on target. I've seen them generating up to one hit per plane in such attacks.

No, I don't know what to do about this quirk. Well, except exploiting it when I can.

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/6/2011 7:03:36 PM   
d0mbo

 

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline 		I agree TB's are far too good at hitting ships when level bombing. Hope the devs will be able to make this a bit more in the realm of possibility :)

Cheers,

d0mbo.


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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/8/2011 7:39:52 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		So, how should we proceed to actually report this with a little more hard facts? Ive tried the editor, but I am of no help here, just can't understand how a few things work... Does anyone feel like providing us with a little test scenario with TBDs or TBFs against a DD TF? You, Sir, would be awesome 

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/9/2011 1:59:51 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		This thread caused me to test out the TB bomber. I had two squadrons of TBD's hit some cargo ships with out CAP. Very little flak and they hit nothing bombing from 5k. The
SBD-2 and 3 cleaned up. What am I missing here?

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/9/2011 10:34:33 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Strange thing.Did you try below 5000?

Here are certain CR I could muster from my saves after a quick search (I took the ones happening without combined SBD strikes so it could be clearer).

Here's one against a AKL turned PB which is not, I reckon, the most difficult target to hit - but just take a look at the hit rate. I am quite aware that every plane carries 2 bombs, but TBs strikes are the only naval strikes where I happen sometimes to see more hits than planes...

quote:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Kabara at 137,164

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes


Allied aircraft
     TBD-1 Devastator x 11


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     PB Nagata Maru, Bomb hits 15, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
     11 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 1000 feet
              Naval Attack:  2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb


Here is another example, with Thunderstorm conditions. As you can see, out of 30 devastators only 15 attacked with bombs. CA Tone was undamaged before the attack. With 5 hits out of 15 planes (considering some may have gone after the DD too) that's a 33% hit rate (16% if we take into account that each plane was flying with 2 bombs) which is still a little high to my taste considering the target (remember the Mogami and Mikuma performance against DBs in good weather!), even though I am still the one giving the punches here.

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Belep Islands at 113,154

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 1 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


Allied aircraft
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 25
     TBD-1 Devastator x 30


Allied aircraft losses
     TBD-1 Devastator: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
     CA Tone, Bomb hits 5,  on fire
     DD Nenohi



Aircraft Attacking:
     15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 1000 feet
              Naval Attack:  2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
     15 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet


The worst case I could find, probably: Avengers attacking a lone DD. I am rather ashamed of this one, because it happened during a PBEM against my opponent, and Kazegumo did put up quite a show the night before against a big Allied SC (actually the only Japanese ship to survive the encounter unharmed)... 3xTBF with 2x500lbs attacking a manoeuvering DD at 1000 ft -> 5 hits. Ouch!

quote:

----------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Rossel Island at 104,145

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
     F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
     TBF-1 Avenger x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     DD Kazegumo, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
      3 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 1000 feet
              Naval Attack:  2 x 500 lb GP Bomb


Another example, this time with kates at 20k feet (probably went for the gliding attack, but the attack happened at 2k finally, even though the whole seven of them attacked in a single group because of the 20k setting). Only the first stack of Kates attacked USS Yorktown, which was undamaged at this time. 7 planes with 2x 250 SAP bombs each got 7 hits in a single attack.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 106,142

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 68 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 24
     B5N2 Kate x 18



Allied aircraft
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 20


Japanese aircraft losses
     A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
     B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
     CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 7,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CA Astoria
     CA Chicago



Aircraft Attacking:
      7 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet *
              Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
      6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet *
              Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
      5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 3000 feet *
              Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


Then again, everything's possible - afterall, see what one could do with a Wildcat in Wake. A Devastator jockey could do that too. But it is just happening on a disturbing basis in my games... As pointed earlier, the LowNav ability may be a little bit too generous when rewarding pilots in their 70-80s I guess.

Again, I am not trying to flame or anything of course - I believe there is a phenomenon right now that, given a set of conditions, give our TBs an outstanding efficiency against any naval target, screwing up calculations. This, based on a dozen observations Ive made in my games: again, I just show the ones where the TBs were operating alone so to illustrate my points, but I witnessed quite a number of attacks where they had better results than SBDs. Would the repeating of your test with a 1k default altitude give a different result Oldman?

Cheers and thanks for your efforts!


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/9/2011 10:39:59 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/9/2011 10:43:55 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 1 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


What completely insane suicidal...errrmmm....


Fishbed the results sure look like needing to be inspected.
Most of all since there is not really a workaround to using bombs for TBs on extended cruises due to the limited
torp supply.
Do you by chance know the complete pilot skill levels of the three attacks in your last post?





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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/9/2011 10:55:00 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Hello LoBaron

Mostly top-notch I think (there may lie part of the problem, they're actually too good not to win the war by themselves ).
If I remember well, the first TBD attack were in december 1941, from Yorktown VT squadron. The second TBD attack was from USS Yorktown or Lexington VT in june 1942, in a Sopac scenario (guess these are equal to the Coral Sea scenarios proficiency level). The Avenger attack against Kazegumo was most probably from USS Wasp or Enterprise VT, in August, same scenario. In either case, this was before or just after the first big battle for the TBF jockeys, so these are the original pilots.

The Kate attack from the Coral Sea scenario, either Shokaku or Zuikaku daitai.

If someone is willing to give me a scenario with a US CV and a couple TB squadrons against different naval targets - including fast DDs - I promise I'll try that quite a number of times at every altitude possible

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/9/2011 10:57:33 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/9/2011 3:55:25 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Allied aircraft
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
    TBF-1 Avenger x 3

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
    DD Kazegumo, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
     3 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 1000 feet
             Naval Attack:  2 x 500 lb GP Bomb


Comment: This must have been a LOT OF LUCK,m they have 6 bombs and 5 of em hit ? And that on a DD ?
Also the AA did not damage a single plane, ok Jap AA isn´t that good but still



Japanese aircraft
    A6M2 Zero x 24
    B5N2 Kate x 18

Allied aircraft
    F4F-3 Wildcat x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
    A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
    B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
    F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
    CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 7,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
    CA Astoria
    CA Chicago

Aircraft Attacking:
     7 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet *
             Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
     6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet *
             Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
     5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 3000 feet *
             Naval Attack:  2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Comment: What happened here ? It may be realistic that the Zeros did drive away the complete CAP. Also perhaps the bomb hits are more explainble in this case. But only 1 Kate lost to AA on this low alt ?? Were all the guys sleeping on these ships ? They should have lost half of the numbers normally.....

I don´t see this results in my game. BUT what I noted was this:

- Kates bombing ports from 17 or 18k with 800kg bombs are very acurate. They often hit even smallest ships from this high alt. And consider each plane can only take 1 bomb!

- Devastators are quite useless with torpedoes, they rarely hit anything. They are a bit more useful with bombs. I have not tried Avengers escpecially so I hope they are better at their torpedo job.

- Dive bombing relults seem to be ok

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/9/2011 4:03:35 PM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/10/2011 12:33:45 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Well on the last event, the downed Kate was shot by a Wildcat. AA didn't do much - I suppose it was either borked by the original 20k altitude (even if the release happen at 2000 ft), either strained by the previous raids (but there weren't that many of them...)

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/10/2011 12:34:43 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers used as bomber and their suspicious... - 1/10/2011 12:59:20 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Most of all since there is not really a workaround to using bombs for TBs on extended cruises due to the limited
torp supply.

+1

I've seen some similar results as Fishbed. I haven't used it as a "tactic" so I can't say how reproducible. But, Kates seem to be better level?/glide? bombers than torpedo bombers.

Hope the betas are having a go at it for michaelm. I suspect with the correct evidence he will find something a bit twisted in some 45 level nested IF statement.

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