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FW190's - 1/12/2011 5:58:54 AM

2ndACR

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Are there any changes planned to made to these? I seem to have 400+ by Blizzard and very few units can use them. Unless I want to convert my dive bombers to them.

Just curious, because it seems a waste to have a stockpile like that when I still have 109F-2 still in the field at the same time. I think I even have had 109E's still being used.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 8:32:02 AM

Speedysteve

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It's being looked at.

Regards

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 11:31:36 AM

vinnie71

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What I can't understand is if fighters and fighter bombers are exchangable. That's because even the Italians and Hungarians have the same problem in '41 with the Saetta and Cr42 respectively. They are supposed to get more advance aircraft but most remain in reserve since the Italians don't seem to have options in 'upgrading' fighters while it would be crazy to convert 'frozen' fighter units for the Hungarians

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 11:32:00 AM

vinnie71

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 5:23:04 PM

dwesolick

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Yeah, in desperation I finally converted a bunch of my stuka squadrons to 190s. Pretty silly though, when most of my 109 squadrons are down to less than 20 aircraft. Hopefully we'll be able to upgrade 109 squadrons to 190s after the next patch.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 5:33:35 PM

Great_Ajax

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Some options were discussed last week in this regards. It looks like the FWs are showing in greater numbers and earlier than when they were actually fielded on the Eastern Front. You shouldn't see them until August/Septemeber 1942 and then only a handful of JGs actually had them. The Stuka squadrons began converting to the FW Fighter Bomber version in June/July 1943. So, adjustments need to be made.

Trey

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 7:24:43 PM

vinnie71

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But doesn't production reflect all the production of the Reich? Maybe that is why there are so many available. Problem is that if we trim the 190s only (because they went west historically) we'll have to check every other system ...

Also, does it make sense to change Stukas for 190s? Are they just as effective or better? And by taking the 190 path, where would it lead us?

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 7:50:51 PM

Great_Ajax

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The ground forces production was done by Jim and I think the air production was done by Brady. I know the process that Jim (Jaw) went through to try to get only vehicles shipped to the East Front. I do not know who the air production model was completed but judging on the results, it needs some adjustments.

There are several different models of the Fw190. The FW190A is the air superiority model and the FW190F is the fighter bomber model. The F model has increased armor (and thus more weight) to protect it from ground fire and it suffered from reduced performance in aerial maneuvers. So you don't want your JGs flying the F model. In the summer of 1943 was when the StGs starting converting over to the FW190Fs and changed their names from Stuka Geswchwaders (StG) to Schlacht Geschwader (SG). By the beginning of Barbarossa, the Stukas were already sub-standard as the Battle of Britain showed that but the Stukas worked well when the Germans had air superiority in Russia. The 190Fs were definitely better protected.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

But doesn't production reflect all the production of the Reich? Maybe that is why there are so many available. Problem is that if we trim the 190s only (because they went west historically) we'll have to check every other system ...

Also, does it make sense to change Stukas for 190s? Are they just as effective or better? And by taking the 190 path, where would it lead us?

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 8:04:18 PM

vinnie71

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Hmm in fact I was intending to start a thread on this. Since the Germans get very limited numbers of pure ground attack aircraft (basically the Henschels and Stuka Gs), then it would have to be the 190s that will have to pick the slack, so to speak. Frankly the few squadrons of 190As didn't imprss me that much in action, and I believe that they are being slotted wrongly as fighter bombers. The F then should be the fighterbomber of choice then.

So hopefully in the next patch (or was it in the latest one) the 190As will be available for fighter squadrons. On the other hand, I have the impression that historically, the 190s were actually deployed in numbers only in the West at first, being used en masse for the first time over Dieppe. (But I can't say where I got this from, sorry)

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 8:13:12 PM

Great_Ajax

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Yes, the 190s were fielded in 1941 in the west. JGs in the East didn't start picking them up until Aug/Sep 1942. The Fw190F would be the FB of choice although there were never enough. The conversion away from the Stuka wasn't completed until well into 44 - almost 45. I haven't seen the 190 problem myself directly but if the 190As are trying to be slotted as FBs, that is wrong.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Hmm in fact I was intending to start a thread on this. Since the Germans get very limited numbers of pure ground attack aircraft (basically the Henschels and Stuka Gs), then it would have to be the 190s that will have to pick the slack, so to speak. Frankly the few squadrons of 190As didn't imprss me that much in action, and I believe that they are being slotted wrongly as fighter bombers. The F then should be the fighterbomber of choice then.

So hopefully in the next patch (or was it in the latest one) the 190As will be available for fighter squadrons. On the other hand, I have the impression that historically, the 190s were actually deployed in numbers only in the West at first, being used en masse for the first time over Dieppe. (But I can't say where I got this from, sorry)

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 8:37:01 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Some options were discussed last week in this regards. It looks like the FWs are showing in greater numbers and earlier than when they were actually fielded on the Eastern Front. You shouldn't see them until August/Septemeber 1942 and then only a handful of JGs actually had them. The Stuka squadrons began converting to the FW Fighter Bomber version in June/July 1943. So, adjustments need to be made.

Trey

The problem being encountered with too many or too earlier an introduction of certain aircraft is due to the fact that while WitE is an Eastern front only game, the production system is for Germany as a whole. This isn't a noticeable problem for AFVs because very few models served only in theatres other than the Eastern front and have been easily excluded from the production system. Aircraft are a different story. What may have to be done is to ignore when an aircraft historically went into production and introduce it only when it went into service on the Eastern front. We didn't do that because it seemed it would have been even more confusing for players to understand.

As for the aircraft themselves, Gary did the aircraft specs; I added stuff like fuel/supply usage, reliability and did the first pass through the aircraft production numbers. After that a lot of rule changes were made to how aircraft operate and I don't know if anyone went back and re-visited what I had done in light of these changes or not.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 9:36:31 PM

Klydon

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Sort of hard to judge on FW-190's because of the engine overheating issues. From the Luftwaffe standpoint of view, the Russians didn't have anything to match the 109's on the Eastern front, so it was not really a priority to deploy there as it was in the west. That also allowed it to stay closer to home and for work to continue to get the issues ironed out. The 190's first major role was to cover the channel dash in Feb 1942, although it had been deployed to France in the late summer of 41.

The F version got going in the spring of 42 as there was a drive on to replace the Stuka. I can't remember when, but at some point, the Germans removed dive bombing gear from the Stuka's and used them as attack aircraft in order to lessen casualties. The F's worked well except the Luftwaffe was looking for aircraft that could kill Russian tanks by strafing and the F version was not able to provide answers. In fact, the only aircraft they had in any quantity were the Stuka tank busters like Rudel flew.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 10:08:32 PM

rtb1017

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

Yeah, in desperation I finally converted a bunch of my stuka squadrons to 190s. Pretty silly though, when most of my 109 squadrons are down to less than 20 aircraft. Hopefully we'll be able to upgrade 109 squadrons to 190s after the next patch.

I did not know you can convert production. I thought AI did that for you based on a schedule.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 10:16:37 PM

randallw

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The conversion reference is to changing the aircraft in an air unit, not changing production.

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RE: FW190's - 1/12/2011 11:08:27 PM

Helpless

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quote:

190As are trying to be slotted as FBs, that is wrong.

No, this is not wrong.

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RE: FW190's - 1/13/2011 11:33:10 AM

vinnie71

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So basically fighter squadrons are not able to change into fighter bomber squadrons, right?

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RE: FW190's - 1/13/2011 12:48:41 PM

Helpless

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quote:

So basically fighter squadrons are not able to change into fighter bomber squadrons, right?

In most cases yes, but there could be exceptions.

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RE: FW190's - 1/13/2011 3:54:57 PM

vinnie71

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thanks for the info because I had the same question for the Italian and Hungarian units since the former always seem to have FB equipped with Saettas while the latter have both F and FB squadrons, with only the former being able to upgrade to advanced planes. I'll see how it will play out in the long term, though since I don't know the export schedule to Hungary, it will be difficult to understand if the Hungarians update to anything before 109Gs in '44.

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Post #: 18