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RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion

 
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RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/29/2010 8:16:49 PM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline 		Has anyone mentioned the ability to adjust the strength/experience received by the computer opponent? I know it's fashionable among the hardcore dudes to want to "fix" what was "broken" with Panzer General; i.e. it was too easy (to them). However, this may have made the game somewhat more appealing to the general gamer because who wants to play a computer game for fun that you can't beat? (without monumental effort or playing the same scenario 22 times in a row until you get the correct force balance and the absolute best force positioning at setup and the exact perfect movement and attack sequences necessary to eek out a minor victory so you can go on to the next scenario and repeat the same frustratingly unfun proceedure!)

I have played the first two scenarios from PG Forever(?) that this Panzer Corps is based on and quite frankly it is too difficult for a casual gamer to overcome. They will try a few scenarios, get beat, and probably never play it again. I have struggled and gotten past them barely, and my fun factor was none too high. My frustration factor was much higher having to start over again and again. The friggin computer out numbered me on every scenario and then got even more reinforcements. I had very little prestige and almost no artillery and the AI had artillery out the wazoo, so none of my units could even attack!

So, give the hardcore guys what they want, but don't forget that there are more casual gamers who should have their voice heard as well.

(in reply to colberki)
Post #: 31
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/29/2010 9:20:20 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		I do think that "hard mode" ought to be tougher AI and not simply more units for the AI.

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 32
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/29/2010 9:23:22 PM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		A harder setting should also subtract prestige from the human player.  Having a much more difficult time to grow your core or replace losses can really show its effects.  Simply adding more prestige to the AI just adds more wack-a-mole fun.

However, I would not alter the combat effects, this can be somewhat game-breaking and produce some strange results.





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King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

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Post #: 33
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/30/2010 12:32:57 AM   
Rudankort


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

I have played the first two scenarios from PG Forever(?) that this Panzer Corps is based on and quite frankly it is too difficult for a casual gamer to overcome. They will try a few scenarios, get beat, and probably never play it again. I have struggled and gotten past them barely, and my fun factor was none too high. My frustration factor was much higher having to start over again and again. The friggin computer out numbered me on every scenario and then got even more reinforcements. I had very little prestige and almost no artillery and the AI had artillery out the wazoo, so none of my units could even attack!


PGF used PG scenarios which were balanced with weaker PG AI in mind. In Panzer Corps we shall of course balance the scens against the new AI, so the issue you've described will not be there.

But of course, Panzer Corps will offer several ways to handicap the game, including:
- different AI playing strength
- more or less resources to the AI
- more or less resources to the player

I expect that it will be possible to fine-tune difficulty in PzC very precisely.

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 34
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/30/2010 7:08:00 AM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline 		Excellent, you have it well in hand!

(in reply to Rudankort)
Post #: 35
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/30/2010 2:57:55 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to see this game as hard to beat. Just as the Germans were facing near impossible odds, maybe the player should also.

By difficult to beat, I mean the German player should not find himself invading England or America very easily; should be an unusual game that gets the player that far.

Just my two cents.

(in reply to dobeln)
Post #: 36
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/31/2010 12:21:12 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Haha, I am currently invading England and it's easy enough... at least on my Windsor scenario (PG2). Though First-Strike & Combat Support tanks do help very much :P

But if one has played very well up to that point, he should deserve some sort of a break, don't you think?




_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to Texican)
Post #: 37
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/31/2010 1:03:15 AM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Haha, I am currently invading England and it's easy enough... at least on my Windsor scenario (PG2). Though First-Strike & Combat Support tanks do help very much :P

But if one has played very well up to that point, he should deserve some sort of a break, don't you think?





In PG2, I recall merely standard victories getting you into Sealion (unless I'm mistaken) and even for toppling the U.S.S.R. I'd almost flub it up on purpose to avoid this.

I think "MAJOR" (or highest level) victories ONLY should get things to that point (i.e., toppling the Russians, SeaLion, invading the U.S., etc...). Otherwise, skilled gamers will always miss out on some of the cool historical historical battles.

In fact, I don't know that it should be necessary that the Germans be allowed to win the war. You're commanding just a Panzer Korps or Panzer Armee, after all. Maybe your victory is just to win glorious battles right to the very end.

This scene from a campy old war movie says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7IxwOlr2PY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj48__hW76c


< Message edited by Texican -- 12/31/2010 1:09:27 AM >

(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 38
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/31/2010 1:55:51 AM   
Obsolete


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Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

In fact, I don't know that it should be necessary that the Germans be allowed to win the war.


I don't have a problem with that, but then you will still get people complaining why is it the Axis players can never be allowed to WIN THE WAR :P

Being able to go onto the offensive and cross over-seas adds a lot more " Unf " to the story...


_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to Texican)
Post #: 39
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 12/31/2010 2:52:42 AM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

quote:

In fact, I don't know that it should be necessary that the Germans be allowed to win the war.


I don't have a problem with that, but then you will still get people complaining why is it the Axis players can never be allowed to WIN THE WAR :P

Being able to go onto the offensive and cross over-seas adds a lot more " Unf " to the story...



Maybe so, but you know Goring, at Nuremberg, said he knew late in the war they could never win in the traditional sense, but that there are "other types of victory". He was referring to a negotiated surrender or cease of hostilities agreement.

But I hear you. We will see what the devs have in store for us.

(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 40
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 3:53:27 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		Have terrain-appropriate camo on units: Tanks units in the desert are beige, units on Eastern front are gray, maybe greenish-gray camo in later years, infantry in winter has white snow jackets, etc...

(in reply to dobeln)
Post #: 41
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 3:55:36 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		Have finite limits on refueling and ammo resupply. Maybe more of an abundance in early war years, but gets tight later on. That way, objectives such as fuel depots can make things dicey as you strive to get there to refuel or something.

(in reply to dobeln)
Post #: 42
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 7:46:14 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		One more thing I never want to see again. Please never allow Conrad to appear on film, he is a defeatist.

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(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 43
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 10:22:21 PM   
Deadmoon

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Have terrain-appropriate camo on units: Tanks units in the desert are beige, units on Eastern front are gray, maybe greenish-gray camo in later years, infantry in winter has white snow jackets, etc...


Totally agree. I´m tired of seeing grey Panthers and King Tigers. The usual response from developers is something like "we don´t want to confuse players so each side have a definite colour".

Come on! Wargames are not for casual players but people that have played other wargames or at least have some knowledge of history. IMHO if you can´t tell the difference between a Tiger and a Sherman tank you don´t deserve to play something like Panzer Corps. Or live.

(in reply to Texican)
Post #: 44
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 11:00:59 PM   
Lukas


Posts: 354
Joined: 5/31/2010
Status: offline 		Actualy a more valid response would be "doing 2-3 versions of each unit (texture) takes too much time". We have ~300 of them x3 = 900 unit icons. And it does get harder to quickly identify your own units if they have similar colours to the enemy.


< Message edited by Lukas -- 1/11/2011 11:01:30 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/11/2011 11:40:20 PM   
Deadmoon

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/2/2008
Status: offline 		I know, just kidding...

The subtleties of camo are only appreciated by a minority of grognards...but changing colours from one to another (without camo stripes and such) doesn´t involve so many time. I´ve never found a game where the same set of models have different texture (except Combat Mission) so i don´t know if gamers will get confused about this.

300 units? wow...

(in reply to Lukas)
Post #: 46
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/12/2011 12:37:09 AM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lukas

Actualy a more valid response would be "doing 2-3 versions of each unit (texture) takes too much time". We have ~300 of them x3 = 900 unit icons. And it does get harder to quickly identify your own units if they have similar colours to the enemy.



Then just the color variable, maybe.

(in reply to Lukas)
Post #: 47
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/12/2011 12:38:24 AM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

One more thing I never want to see again. Please never allow Conrad to appear on film, he is a defeatist.


You know, that "Conrad" character from "The Battle of the Bulge" was actually in the war in real life. Got his facial scars on the Russian front.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 48
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/12/2011 9:47:10 AM   
Deadmoon

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/2/2008
Status: offline 		Here a quick sample of how a camo texture would like in the game. I doesn´t took so much time to make but i understand you run under a schedule. Surely the bitmaps could be changed so maybe we may see this as a fan-made mod. :)


(in reply to Texican)
Post #: 49
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/12/2011 7:18:33 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deadmoon

Here a quick sample of how a camo texture would like in the game. I doesn´t took so much time to make but i understand you run under a schedule. Surely the bitmaps could be changed so maybe we may see this as a fan-made mod. :)




That looks great. I think if they cannot get camoflage in for release, they at least ought to work it into a future patch.

(in reply to Deadmoon)
Post #: 50
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/12/2011 10:57:02 PM   
Deadmoon

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
That looks great. I think if they cannot get camoflage in for release, they at least ought to work it into a future patch.


If every model has its own bitmap (as in previous releases from this developers) it should be quite easy to modify them.....

(in reply to Texican)
Post #: 51
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/13/2011 1:32:20 AM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline 		I hope to see this offered later after the initial release by the developers or modders. Maybe the company could offer it at close to cost as an add on or a patch later?

(in reply to Deadmoon)
Post #: 52
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 1/26/2011 10:40:26 AM   
takman

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 1/26/2011
Status: offline 		I liked PG scenarios with very large maps and large numbers of units.
I also like "John Tiller" games from HPS simulations, whilst some think this would make the game boring, I think it accurately portrays the massive scale of fighting that occured in World War II.
Many more unit types, like the Focke Wulf 187 and a host of aircraft from Luftwaffe 46 as just one example. Modders will probably add them later anyway, more work for the programmer but a more complete game at the outset

I would also like some what-if alternate history scenarios such as "the Hilter Options" by Kenneth Macksey, "Invasion" by Kenneth Macksey, "Third Reich Victorius" edited by Peter G.Tsouras, "Rising sun Victorius" edited by Peter G. Tsouras, "Disaster at D-Day" by Peter G. Tsouras, "The Moscow Option" by David Downing. These books would provide a starting-point for a Multitude of Plausible what-if scenarios or campaigns.

A game that aslo encompasses world war one and starts from say,1900 to 1950 and beyond. I aslo wish they would design a "Hearts of Iron 2" game like above, Hearts of Iron 3 was disappointing.

Well thats my wish list, but I will keep dreaming.

(in reply to dobeln)
Post #: 53
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 2/7/2011 4:04:26 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I think if they cannot get camoflage in for release, they at least ought to work it into a future patch.


I am usually against camoflage. I prefer a unit that is modeled and textured STAND-OUT so it's not just distinguishable, but also so that it POPS-OUT very well from the board/terrain. This is more important on scenarios that include many units.

Nothing worse than not being able to clearly see that you parked your Pz-I in the bushy hex, waiting to block that Ronson with your E-ZoC so you could buy time to finish the job off with your PzIV that is en-route.

Instead, you forgot to move because you couldn't see things very well, and your primary supply/victory hex is now taken giving you an immediate loss :P



_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to takman)
Post #: 54
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 2/8/2011 5:35:34 AM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

quote:

I think if they cannot get camoflage in for release, they at least ought to work it into a future patch.


I am usually against camoflage. I prefer a unit that is modeled and textured STAND-OUT so it's not just distinguishable, but also so that it POPS-OUT very well from the board/terrain. This is more important on scenarios that include many units.

Nothing worse than not being able to clearly see that you parked your Pz-I in the bushy hex, waiting to block that Ronson with your E-ZoC so you could buy time to finish the job off with your PzIV that is en-route.

Instead, you forgot to move because you couldn't see things very well, and your primary supply/victory hex is now taken giving you an immediate loss :P




Actually, having it pop out isn't that big of a deal if it's anything like Panzer General II you can just click on the whatever it's called button and it goes automatically to the units that havent been used yet. Simple. No way you can miss one that way. Personally, I like the camo texture if it fits the battle. No need to dumb it down.

(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 55
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 2/8/2011 8:08:35 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I don't want to have to keep using the NEXT-UNIT toggles just to see where my units are.



_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 56
RE: Keeping the best - a feature discussion - 4/20/2011 10:09:26 PM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline 		What do y'all think about enhancing "recon" vehicle's abilities regarding survival on the battle field. I was always afraid to purchase or use them too much because they would get butt busted asap in the PG format. Can we give them a retreat before combat possiblity? Increase their armor to reflect that reality? Other ideas? Seems like they were used more in the real war than we will use them in our games basically because of the i go you go format.

(in reply to colberki)
Post #: 57
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