Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: GBS

I ask as I seem to remember something being said about that. Anyway, what do you think about this suggestion. Defenders are hard to move out of swamp terrain, fair enough. I suggest limiting the ZOC of troops in swamp terrain to just the hex they occupy. All other combat units project ZOC 10 more miles out in every direction which makes sence but if a unit is slogged in a swamp just daring the enemy to come in after them, then they shouldn't be able to project that same ZOC. Seems fair to me that enemy units not be subject to ZOC penalties and be able to bypass the swamp bound units with normal movement cost. A fair trade off? What do you think?

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ORIGINAL: squatter

ZOC refers to surrounding hexes, not the swamp hex itself.

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ORIGINAL: Jakerson
Hiding most of troops inside the swamp doesn’t block from sending small recon teams and forward observers all around you those recon teams could then call in artillery fire against any troop that is moving too close their positions and that is ZOC around them.

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The division in a swamp is going to have a much worse time moving its assets internally, artillery, ammunition trucks, etc. Mounting patrols and coordinating harrassing artillery fire over a horseshoe front of 60km is going to be harder if the conditions are terrible underfoot, compared to when the ground is firm, no?

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

... I am convinced that there is only one really effective method to use against the dangers of Russian forests and swamps, namely, to plan and conduct operations in a manner which will drive the Soviet forces from those areas where—for the time being—they enjoy a natural advantage, and force them to give battle in open terrain where western soldiers have an even chance in the tactical sense and superiority in terms of materiel. It is entirely conceivable that even the most modern weapon, the atom bomb, might serve as an effective instrument in support of such a strategy.

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

Interesting comments by Halder considering the Russians got a big dose of that from the Finns in the pristine woods during the winter war where the Finns moved through the woods with grace and the Russians were more or less road bound.

The airfield bombing issues revolve around the Red Air force bombing the crap out of Luftwaffe airfields and at the end of the day, achieving a 1:1 loss ratio when in fact they would be slaughtered by German ME 109's in 1941. 

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ORIGINAL: squatter
...

What I'm less sure about are the numerous small swamps dotting the map. With a single border regiment in them, these can become Alamos that stop entire corps in their tracks. 2000 poorly equiped, poorly trained and poorly led men costing 60,000 fresh shock troops a week's operations...

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ORIGINAL: elmo3

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ORIGINAL: squatter
...

What I'm less sure about are the numerous small swamps dotting the map. With a single border regiment in them, these can become Alamos that stop entire corps in their tracks. 2000 poorly equiped, poorly trained and poorly led men costing 60,000 fresh shock troops a week's operations...

I'll be running some tests to see if I can replicate this with the latest build over the next week or so.

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Here is an except of what Halder had to say about combat in the Russian swamps and forests.

the Russian was able to move about in these impenetrable forests and treacherous swamps with the certain instinct and sense of security of an animal, whereas any soldier reared and trained in a civilized country of the West was severely restricted in his movements and thereby placed at a disadvantage.

There are no effective tactical remedies to compensate for this disadvantage. Even the most thorough training applied to troops from the West cannot replace the natural instinct peculiar to eastern Europeans who were born and raised in a region of forests and swamps [yeah, Soviet metrosexuals too, eh? ]. In the course of several generations the Soviet policy of concentrating masses of workers in large industrial areas will certainly have the effect of eliminating these natural instincts, even among people of the eastern type [what are they? Insects? ], but this is still far in the future [aka I know I sound like a moron so here's my half-ar** retort. Yes, you're an utter moron. Amen].

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Interesting comments by Halder considering the Russians got a big dose of that from the Finns in the pristine woods during the winter war where the Finns moved through the woods with grace and the Russians were more or less road bound

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ORIGINAL: squatter

I may have exaggerated slightly. It's been known.

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

Personally, I don't know why people would be assaulting a swamp with a entire infantry corps. I treat swamps like a level five fortification in that I find somewhere else to go. No sense beating your head into the wall. Cut em off and leave them. If someone could provide a historical instance in which a German division or even a corps assaulted a 10 mile swamp area in Russia and cleared it out in less than a week, I might support some changes.

Trey

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ORIGINAL: Klydon
The airfield bombing issues revolve around the Red Air force bombing the crap out of Luftwaffe airfields and at the end of the day, achieving a 1:1 loss ratio when in fact they would be slaughtered by German ME 109's in 1941. 

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ORIGINAL:  Jakerson

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ORIGINAL:  el hefe
Personally, I don't know why people would be assaulting a swamp with a entire infantry corps.  I treat swamps like a level five fortification in that I find somewhere else to go.  No sense beating your head into the wall.  Cut em off and leave them.  If someone could provide a historical instance in which a German division or even a corps assaulted a 10 mile swamp area in Russia and cleared it out in less than a week, I might support some changes. 
Trey

Same to me I do not understand why people hit their head on the brick wall and attacking where enemy has strongest natural fortresses helping them to defend. Of course attacking against bad terrain delay operations and advance as it should be and it should take a longer to clear swamp from enemy troops than other terrain. It is just realistic. Choosing correct time table and attacking lines is important aspect for German player in this game and I do not want this aspect of game to cripple by allowing very unhistorical game play. Germans having problem with Swamps adds historical accuracy to game.
I love the fact that this game forces people to plan how they attack and where instead of just mindlessly attacking everything that move without taking any note about terrain.

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ORIGINAL: Budman

Some of my reading indicates that the Germans simply were not comfortable fighting in woods, swamps, etc. because they had no (or very few) areas where they could effectively practice this skill - the forests in Germany being 'new' forests (ie. planted, spaced out, little undergrowth, etc.). As well they were jealously protected by the German administrations responsible for maintaining the forests.