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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 3:06:13 AM   
Yoozername

 

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Mobius

Did you say you don't have cross-sectional drawings for these Soviet rounds?  I have them if you need them

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 3:16:05 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Mobius

Did you say you don't have cross-sectional drawings for these Soviet rounds?  I have them if you need them

No, I have them. Do your drawings have "Using weapons(s): Field gun ZIS-3 and tank gun D-56T" on the right bottom?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 3:19:52 AM   
Yoozername

 

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http://www.scribd.com/doc/25044683/Projectile-and-Warhead-Identification-Guide-Foreign

Yes.  The 350A is very interesting.  I have read that the front was supposed to snap off.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 12:50:58 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25044683/Projectile-and-Warhead-Identification-Guide-Foreign

Yes.  The 350A is very interesting.  I have read that the front was supposed to snap off.

Wierd. Maybe that had something to do with the original naval design of flat head shells. Like the Japanese Type 88 and Type 91 they are designed to travel far underwater. The windscreen snaps off and a beveled flat nose 50% of the diameter is left. The purpose of these are to hit short of an armored ship and travel underwater to strike below the belt.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 4:36:35 PM   
Yoozername

 

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I have read one description that says the nose is designed to act like a cap.  Its purpose is to take the initial shock, gouge the armor and snap off.  The rest of the AP then goes through.  I would suspect that it would fail miserably against sloped armor. I would also expect varying performance against armor at other angles. The Soviet penetration values for 20% and 80% are certainly not very close together.

So it looks like the BR-350 and BR-350B are similar but the 'B' has less HE filling. The BR-350A is a much different animal altogether. I would like to see actual data of this round striking sloped and face-hardened armor.

Also, since none of these rounds have a true cap, how is it that the data that was posted show better penetration against face-hardened armor?

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 1/4/2011 4:56:24 PM >

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 5:09:49 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Also, since none of these rounds have a true cap, how is it that the data that was posted show better penetration against face-hardened armor?
Must be the blunt nose. The reason most pointed rounds fail against FH armor is the tip shatters as it takes the most force. A cap spreads the load over a larger area. If it is spread out less force per square cm. Penetration of FH armor punches out a plug of armor.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 5:38:02 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Perhaps for vertical armor, but I would still question sloped armor penetration since it would contact on a small area.

Do you have any info on German use of T-34 against T-34>?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 7:02:33 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Do you have any info on German use of T-34 against T-34>?
No.

What it might be like I have Yugoslav test of T-34/85 vs T-34/85.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/4/2011 9:48:52 PM   
Ratzki

 

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Thought this might be a help to the discussion:
Talking about face hardened armor
"... Use of this kind of armor must be restricted to cases where the damage to the enemy weapon caused by the armor reduces its penetration, which is not the case at high obliquity, where a weapon that stays in one piece is more likely to ricochet completely away with minimal target damage than one whose nose is broken off and thus whose middle body and base can continue to punch through the plate even after the nose has ricochetted off. Also, face-hardened armor fails by having the armor in the projectile's path punch through the plate back where it acts as a second solid-shot-type projectile, increasing target damage; this is made worse by the fact that such a "plug" of armor can be ejected from a brittle face-hardened plate at striking velocities well below those where the projectile itself can penetrate the plate, which severely compromises the protection afforded by the plate."

From "TABLE OF METALLURGICAL PROPERTIES OF NAVAL ARMOR AND CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS"
by NATHAN OKUN (Revised 5/3/98)


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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/5/2011 5:28:13 AM   
Yoozername

 

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As far as the BR-350A striking the sponson armor from the front on a 'G' model StuG, it would more than likely snap off its nose after penetrating the outer plate (30mm @50 deg).  It would, of course, lose mass (nose snapped off) and become deflected off its course by penetrating the armor as well as losing velocity.  It now has to pierce the inner superstructure wall.  The AP round may actually detonate it's HE burster before hitting the superstructure itself. 

I seriously doubt the T34/76 firing this round has a chance against the sponson/superstructure combination.  Even if its dead-on attack of the plate with no side angle.

In the case of the upper bow armor with a thickness of 80mm and the slope it had; I would not give the round a chance of penetrating.  The lower bow armor might be susceptible at very close ranges.  If the StuG is hull down, this large area of the StuG may not be a viable target.  Tracks hung on this plate may give marginal extra protection.

The driver's visor area and the corresponding superstructure area to the left (when facing the front), might be susceptible.  The driver's visor bolt-on armor (50+30mm) was for all G models but the other side was 80mm plate.  These small areas might be susceptible at very close range.  Again, photographic evidence shows the hits in this area seem to pop the nuts right off the bolts.  I have not seen that many penetration pics on these areas that might be from the time period in question.

The gun itself, when protected by the box mantlet, would be susceptible to damage from a dead-on hit on the 50mm front-mantlet plate.  Photos show it knocked off and the fasteners missing in many cases.  The AFV was certainly shown in photos with gun change-outs.  Unfortunately, the game does not model Gun-Kills. Gun kills were historicallyevident in StuGs as well as other vehicles.



But there appears to be some areas of the mantlet that overlaps the superstructure and the armored cross-bar that connects along the top of the superstructure.  Its my opinion that while there is some weak areas to the box mantlet, it is not as bad as some think.  The gun is uniquely sunken into the AFV.  A enemy shooting from the side could not reach some of these areas on the mantlet.

The extremely sloped areas above the driver and above the ammunition area could be immune to this round. The AP round striking this area is almost 'riding' the slope with much of its side in contact with the plate. I don't even see that it would snap off the frontal 'knob' of the 350A. If anything, it might just ride up the armor itself. I can't see it cracking off the frontal piece of the AP projectile.

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 1/5/2011 6:25:11 AM >

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/5/2011 6:25:10 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The extremely sloped areas above the driver and above the ammunition area could be immune to this round. The AP round striking this area is almost 'riding' the slope with much of its side in contact with the plate. I don't even see that it would snap off the frontal 'knob' of the 350A. If anything, it might just ride up the armor itself. I can't see it cracking off the frontal piece of the AP projectile.
Seeing that it has a flatish nose it probably does better than most against highly sloped armor. If it was a scaled down 122mm BR471B projectile it would do slightly less than the LOS measurement even on 70-degree sloped armor. Though I don't know what that narrow bit is for. No other shell seems to have it so it may be a failed attempt at something.


< Message edited by Mobius -- 1/5/2011 6:26:29 AM >

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/5/2011 6:46:40 AM   
Yoozername

 

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I doubt the 'flatish' part even gets a grip.

The narrow bit has been discussed.  Its supposed to crack off like some cheap version of cap.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/6/2011 1:53:18 AM   
Mobius


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This is a firing test on a KV-1 turret. The projectiles appear to be 76.2mm sized. The scale drawing of a BR-350A is placed side by side to an actual round. What ever round it was it loses the front half of its body.




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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/6/2011 2:19:34 AM   
Ratzki

 

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Would that inner core be something like tungstun? What would the outer lining be? Plus I find it interesting that there is only a small band that makes contact with the rifling of the barrel. Or at least that is what it looks like. What twist rate would we have in a 76.2mm Russian barrel?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/6/2011 2:47:08 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ratzki

Would that inner core be something like tungstun? What would the outer lining be? Plus I find it interesting that there is only a small band that makes contact with the rifling of the barrel. Or at least that is what it looks like. What twist rate would we have in a 76.2mm Russian barrel?

No, tungsten would be subcaliber. That is steel. The bands I think are softer material like brass or copper so they can conform to the rifling and not wear out the barrel.



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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/6/2011 4:53:03 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Fascinating photo.  Is that KV-1 turret off the vehicle?  Possibly upside down on the ground?  The rounds laid along the rim?  Its hard to visualize.  But those are not HE nor any HVAP.  Note the 43326 written in chalk.  March 26 1943?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/6/2011 5:31:21 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Fascinating photo.  Is that KV-1 turret off the vehicle?  Possibly upside down on the ground?  The rounds laid along the rim?  Its hard to visualize.  But those are not HE nor any HVAP.  Note the 43326 written in chalk.  March 26 1943?

It's in a large factory room with lots of other turrets prior to assembly.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/7/2011 1:34:25 AM   
Yoozername

 

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It's interesting to note that the HE filler has not cracked open the rounds. 

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/7/2011 1:52:22 AM   
Lieste

 

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It is common in AP testing to replace HE filling with an inert wax or powder fill.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/7/2011 2:19:28 AM   
Yoozername

 

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It appears that the rear fuze has been blown off those AP shells. 

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/7/2011 5:15:00 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
It appears that the rear fuze has been blown off those AP shells. 
The fuze wasn't replaced nor the tracer when the charge was replaced by something inert.
The same type of thing appears in US tests.






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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/7/2011 10:38:28 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Do you know what rounds are used in that US test?

Its a moot point but I have seen AP rounds that are stuck in armor, the rear of the shell intact, and the HE filler is gone, and the shell is intact.  Many people think the amount of explosive is enough to shatter the shell.  In most cases, especially in WWII, that is not correct.  The HE more than likely just shoots out the back and the fuze and tracer bodies disintegrate.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/8/2011 12:29:17 AM   
Mobius


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I don't have any information on what the flat-nose shell was. The M79's velocity would put it at 2800yds. Pretty long range for a tank engagement. Maybe this was some naval test?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/11/2011 4:48:00 AM   
Yoozername

 

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An interesting data point is that the Soviets had a 'performance measure for penetration' where 75% of the actual projectile had to make it through, in some form, beyond the armor plate. 

Looking at those rounds on top of that KV-1 turret, I wonder if those count as penetrations.  If they were BR-350A rounds, they certainly would typically lose that snout piece.  In fact, those rounds look like they have almost been ground down to the HE cavity.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/11/2011 7:10:21 AM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

An interesting data point is that the Soviets had a 'performance measure for penetration' where 75% of the actual projectile had to make it through, in some form, beyond the armor plate. 

Looking at those rounds on top of that KV-1 turret, I wonder if those count as penetrations.  If they were BR-350A rounds, they certainly would typically lose that snout piece.  In fact, those rounds look like they have almost been ground down to the HE cavity.

They might need a broom and dust pan to gather up some nose bits to add to the total.

I doubt they used any of this test to make firing tables. Just as the Germans fired the 50mm PaK at the Tiger to see if its armor would hold up. Probably just wanted to see the protection level.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/11/2011 7:41:24 AM   
Yoozername

 

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I seem to recall that the early-1944 JS-2 tanks were tested by the Soviets with 76.2mm fire.  They were not penetrated but the cast armor had spalling inside none-the-less.

edit:
quote:

In March 1944, firing tests were conducted with a 76.2 mm Gun ZiS-3 firing at an JS-2 tank from 500-600 metres. The tank's armour was penetrated from all sides of the tank. Whilst while most of the projectiles did not penetrate the armour completely, they created major splintering and fragmentation inside the turret. This explains the considerable losses of JS-85 and JS-122 tanks during the Winter-Spring of 1944.


In another test, the Soviets captured some TigerII in late 44. They reported the following results:

quote:

1. The quality of armor on the „Tiger-B‛ tank, in comparison with the armor on the „Tiger-I,‛ and „Panther,‛ tanks, as well as early production „Ferdinand‛ self-propelled gun, has sharply deteriorated. The first individual impacts caused cracks and spalling in the armor of the „Tiger-B‛ tank. Groups of shell impacts (3–4 shells) caused large-scale spalling and fractures in the armor..
.
.
7. The tank's side armor plates were notable for their sharply unequal durability in comparison with the frontal plates and appeared to be the most vulnerable part of the tank's hull and turret.
8. The tank's hull and turret side plates were penetrated by armor-piercing projectiles from the domestic 85 mm and American 76 mm guns at ranges of 800–2000 metres.
9. The tank's hull and turret side plates were not penetrated by armor-piercing projectiles from the domestic 76 mm guns (ZJS-3 and F-34).

I take this data-point to imply that even with BR-350B ammunition, the Soviet 76.2mm guns would have some tough time against the StuGIIIG's 80mm frontal armor especially when firing at a side angle to the armor. It's not known if the Soviets used 76mm HVAP rounds.

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 1/11/2011 8:31:40 PM >

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/11/2011 8:05:32 PM   
Yoozername

 

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Another 'snap-shot' of data regarding the actual power of the T34 F-34 gun...

quote:


At the end of August, a conference was held at Factory No.112. It was attended by the People's Commissar for Tank Industry V. A. Malyshev, Commander of Tank and Mechanized Troops of the Red Army Ya.N. Fedorenko, and ranking members from the People's Commissariat for Armaments. In his introduction, V. A. Malyshev noted that the victory at the Battle of Kursk cost the Red Army a high price:
«Enemy tanks opened fire on ours at distances of up to 1,500 metres, while our 76 mm tank guns could destroy „Tigers‛ and „Panthers‛ at distances of only 500–600 metres. Imagine the enemy has a kilometer and a half in his hands, while we have only half a kilometer. A more powerful gun needs to be put into the T-34 quickly.»
In actual fact, the situation was significantly worse than Malyshev painted it, though attempts to correct the situation had been undertaken at the beginning of 1943.
As early as the 15th of April, the GOKO, reacting to the appearance of the new German tanks on the Soviet-German front, published order No.3187ss (the «ss» suffix means top secret) «Measures for improving anti-tank defenses.» This required the GAU to put all tank and anti-tank guns then in mass production through range trials, and present findings all within a 10 day period. In accordance with this order, Deputy Commander of Tank and Mechanized Forces Lieutenant-General V. M. Korobkov ordered that a captured Tiger be used for the trials, which were conducted from 25 to 30 April at the NIIBT proving grounds at Kubinka. The trial results were of little comfort. The 76 mm armored-piercing tracer round for the F-34 Main Gun did not penetrate the German tank's side even as close as 200 metres! The most effective weapon for dealing with the enemy's new heavy tank turned out to be the 85mm 52-K Anti-Aircraft Gun model 1939. It penetrated the 100 mm frontal armor at distances up to 1,000 metres.

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/13/2011 9:20:45 PM   
Misty99

 

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I have read the book "Sturmgeschütze-Panzer der Infantrie" 2 or 3 years ago. There was a report from StuG commander (late 1943). He said, that the StuG crews used barbed wire with concrete to reinforce the front side of their Stug´s. So a lot of the crews survived.

http://www.die-sturmartillerie.com/seite1.htm

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/14/2011 5:12:21 AM   
Yoozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misty

I have read the book "Sturmgeschütze-Panzer der Infantrie" 2 or 3 years ago. There was a report from StuG commander (late 1943). He said, that the StuG crews used barbed wire with concrete to reinforce the front side of their Stug´s. So a lot of the crews survived.

http://www.die-sturmartillerie.com/seite1.htm



I have seen that website. If you look through all the photos, there is not one concreted StuG.

Did the StuG commander say exactly why he put concrete and barbed wire (I assume as some primitive 'rebar') on the StuG?

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RE: StuG BS discussions - 1/14/2011 6:07:04 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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No one has to look to a German-language source to confirm the widespread use of concrete on the Stug.III:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmgeschutz-iii-sturmgeschutz-iv.htm

And I quote:

quote:

Very common field practice was the addition of a layer of concrete added over the armor plate above the driver’s position to improve the protection.


Of course, If you'd take the time to educate yourself on these matters, the rest of us wouldn't have to shoulder the burden of enlightening you.

Again, LEWIS, buy yourself some books and stop cluttering up the forum with your nonsense.




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