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How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns?

 
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How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 12:20:03 AM   
Astyreal


Posts: 37
Joined: 10/2/2010
Status: offline 		Ok, so I'm stirring the pot a little, but I am curious what makes WITE _different_ from other comparable games that have tackled operational warfare on the eastern front. I get that this title is perhaps the most complete rendition of the war, but what makes the actual gameplay different be it a 250 turn scenario or a 15 turn one.

I bought the game, and am currently trying to grasp it, but I want to know what to look for. If I'm honest, I haven't found it it yet. But I will be patient.
Post #: 1
RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 12:31:53 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		The strategic scale and your ability to influence the whole campaign.

(in reply to Astyreal)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 1:06:22 AM   
Astyreal


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Status: offline 		Anything else?

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 2:15:02 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I don't have Tiller, so cannot comment on that aspect.

But if it says Grigsby, it will be the best.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 2:30:06 AM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
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Status: offline 		It's at a different level compared to the Tiller games. Those cover a single operation, or a short period of time/space. This covers the entire 4 year war. That's the biggest difference. The system itself is easier to run and more fun imo, but that may be taste. Don't get me wrong, I like Tiller too and own 6 of his games btw - not knocking it. But it's like comparing boardgames Fire in the East/Scorched Earth to The Longest Day. They're both great, but they cover a different scale.

< Message edited by jjdenver -- 1/17/2011 2:31:16 AM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 2:38:03 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
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Status: offline 		Based on user comments, WitE has one of the best AI's out there. Also based on user opinion's the Tiller Series has one of the worst. Although I have quite a few Tiller games, I am not qualified to comment on the AI, as even a weak AI is a challenge for me.

Also, you can nit pick the WitE interface, and it will probably be improved. But the Tiller interface really is ancient. Workmanlike yes, but the changes from the Campaign Series to the newer stuff aren't that dramatic.

Best of all (IMO), I have played WitE, admittedly with heavy use of the editor, since 12/7 and have not come near plumbing the depths of the game. For many that's a good thing. Plus, you can just push counters around and have some fun. The Tiller series can be work.

I may never play a 250-turn game. But I've had a lot of fun playing 15-turn games vs. the AI.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 2:43:16 AM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I will say that the AI has impressed me alot. I have seen it do some really amazing things.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 3:10:27 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
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Status: offline 		Should mention that the AIs from SSG and Panther aren't exactly slackers, either. We don't want those gents to feel left out. But to design an AI for a game as complex as WitE, and to generally please such a demanding crowd, is quite an achievement so far.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 3:16:58 AM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
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From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		I own a lot of the Panzer Campaign tiltes, and I like them and think they do a good job simulating operational warfare at that scale. The biggest difference is time, scale and the AI in WitE is better and the game is easier to play and learn.

I do love that so many people have added to the art work in PC, it seems to make the game far more interesting to have those little pictures of infantry or tanks on the unit list.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 1/17/2011 4:10:28 AM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 3:56:01 AM   
raizer

 

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Status: offline 		 why is the AI even mentioned as a measure of a game?  you buy this game and tillers to play against people and the tiller games  have an incredible source of people to play.  Ive been playing them for 10 years- and as of today, right now, I have a 306 tun stalingrad game goin, a 189 turn France 40 team game going and 2 kharkov 43  20 turn games going-all against people  whom I know and trust for years.
I expect no less from this game

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 4:39:35 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		That is great. The AAR on your Stalingrad game would be something to read.

I bought France 1940 and found the pace horrifyingly slow. I honestly couldn't force myself to play it after a while. WitE is the exact opposite. I give you guys credit for sticking with it, though.


(in reply to raizer)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 5:04:11 AM   
Baron von Beer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

 why is the AI even mentioned as a measure of a game?  you buy this game and tillers to play against people and the tiller games  have an incredible source of people to play.  Ive been playing them for 10 years- and as of today, right now, I have a 306 tun stalingrad game goin, a 189 turn France 40 team game going and 2 kharkov 43  20 turn games going-all against people  whom I know and trust for years.
I expect no less from this game



Maybe because some people don't care for the pace of PBEM play? Of the few people I know with WITE & a couple of those also have WITP, none do PBEM. However, thanks to at least engaging AI, that's several hundred dollars in sales that wouldn't have been there without, and I'd wager they aren't the only people who don't PBEM, or at least do regularly play vs the AI.

Of course if everyone did only play PBEM, the developers lives would be a whole lot easier.

< Message edited by Baron von Beer -- 1/17/2011 5:17:01 AM >

(in reply to raizer)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 5:06:22 AM   
2ndACR


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

 why is the AI even mentioned as a measure of a game?  you buy this game and tillers to play against people and the tiller games  have an incredible source of people to play.  Ive been playing them for 10 years- and as of today, right now, I have a 306 tun stalingrad game goin, a 189 turn France 40 team game going and 2 kharkov 43  20 turn games going-all against people  whom I know and trust for years.
I expect no less from this game



I have 1 PBEM that just started, I play the AI between turns. I just have to forget some of the bad habits you can do against the AI. But I still want an AI that is some what challenging to keep me amused. Besides, there are alot more AI players than there are PBEM players. So the AI being pretty good is a good thing.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 5:10:52 AM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

 why is the AI even mentioned as a measure of a game?  you buy this game and tillers to play against people and the tiller games  have an incredible source of people to play.  Ive been playing them for 10 years- and as of today, right now, I have a 306 tun stalingrad game goin, a 189 turn France 40 team game going and 2 kharkov 43  20 turn games going-all against people  whom I know and trust for years.
I expect no less from this game



I disagree. A good AI makes a huge difference in my opinion of a game. I won't get one that has a known weak or bad AI.

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 9:37:44 AM   
laska2k8


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quote:

A good AI makes a huge difference


I totally agree with Clydon, I like to play with a challenging AI.

Otherwise you need only a artwork designer and a couple of programmers for a good game.


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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 2:43:44 PM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		hehe Im playing the full stalingrad campaign as a what if with an extra 4 ss divisions thrown in mid way thru the game to help with winter storm-LAH, DAS, Toten and Viking all full up-Ill let you know in 9 months   (Still dont think it will be enough to stem the horde)

As to the AI, it a great training tool but the thing makes dumb mistakes and you can get away with a ton playing it-all the increased levels of ai do is make the game harder by increasing strength and supplies, etc there is no increase in "tactics" or ai thinking-but you cant expect anything else.  I mean to make a competent, thinking ai for this game you would probably need the resources of a university or a military organization.  And trust me the AI here is a lot better than in tillers games but again, I could never measure this game by it.

(in reply to laska2k8)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 4:25:19 PM   
jimkehn


Posts: 265
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From: Western Nebraska
Status: offline 		I LOVE Panzer Campaigns but WitE is a LOTTTTTT different from PzC. Scale is the main thing and scope as well. PzC as said above is focusing on only one operation i.e. Uranus. While WitE is the whole dam lot. It all depends on your taste. I love them both.

(in reply to raizer)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 7:01:02 PM   
Smirfy

 

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The difference between Panzer Campaigns and WiTE is essentially that the war in the east has more variables to replicate the friction in war as described by Clausewitz. For example a Panther Bn in a Tiller game will always perform more or less the same as the next one whilst in WITE no two units will perform identically due to the detailed modelling of all the factors.

WiTE tries to get beyond the counter shove to replicate genuine operational problems


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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 7:04:07 PM   
Josh

 

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From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

hehe Im playing the full stalingrad campaign as a what if with an extra 4 ss divisions thrown in mid way thru the game to help with winter storm-LAH, DAS, Toten and Viking all full up-Ill let you know in 9 months   (Still dont think it will be enough to stem the horde)

As to the AI, it a great training tool but the thing makes dumb mistakes and you can get away with a ton playing it-all the increased levels of ai do is make the game harder by increasing strength and supplies, etc there is no increase in "tactics" or ai thinking-but you cant expect anything else.  I mean to make a competent, thinking ai for this game you would probably need the resources of a university or a military organization.  And trust me the AI here is a lot better than in tillers games but again, I could never measure this game by it.



Agree with you on that an AI is no match for a human mind, well most of the time anyway , I'd rather have an AI with less strenght/supplies/ fill in, and more of a competent strategic thinker. I'd give my right hand for an AI that is able do to a paradrop behind your lines, and other evil cunning manoeuvers, oh well.
But uhm, what I would like to say, here's another one that would appreciate you writing that Stalingrad AAR.

(in reply to raizer)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 7:18:49 PM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		yah WITE is so huge-I think I have the axis figured out to take on a person but I need more work on the soviets-I think, by the composition of their forces, and the mission of the side, that the soviet AI performs better than the axis AI-and can give a bit more training to a person about to jump into the pbem

One thing I like about WITE is the support functions-great fun attaching units to corps and particular divisions.  I also like the leader system.

We are all used to the IGOUGO feature but with units with all those MPs and having the ability to make multi moves and multi attacks is the biggest thing I need to get familiar with.  WITE has an exponential IGOUGO which IMHO separates it from any operational/strategic computer game Ive every played and this really makes it hard to get an axis AI to be halfway decent----







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by raizer -- 1/17/2011 8:09:55 PM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 7:19:34 PM   
Astyreal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


The difference between Panzer Campaigns and WiTE is essentially that the war in the east has more variables to replicate the friction in war as described by Clausewitz. For example a Panther Bn in a Tiller game will always perform more or less the same as the next one whilst in WITE no two units will perform identically due to the detailed modelling of all the factors.

WiTE tries to get beyond the counter shove to replicate genuine operational problems




Very interesting reply Smirfy, thank you!

Certainly one could spend a lot of time drilling down "beyond" the counters and the detail is truly impressive. I mean, I don't know how it plays as a game, but I will surely spend a lot of time just drilling into OOBs and staring at pretty pictures! Clearly the modeling is unparalleled.

Plan on getting into this one as soon as I finish my other Grigsby title; Yes I am just now getting into GG War Between the States! A bit different . . . Wonder what 2by3 doin next



< Message edited by Asty -- 1/17/2011 7:21:03 PM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 8:30:25 PM   
V22 Osprey


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From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		+1 for what others have said, it's time and scale. I don't really think you can compare the two as they are completely different games. However overall the WitE is allot easier to play. It's actually fun and doable to play the Grand Campaign in WitE, while it's a chore to play the GC in Panzer Campaigns. Some similarities UI-wise(with the side unit bar being the obvious example) but overall WitE is more enjoyable. AI is can actuallly perform some excellent moves which provides a nice challenge outside of PBEM....

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/17/2011 9:46:59 PM   
Commanderski


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The AI in WiTE is pretty amazing. You can play the same scenario several times and it will do different things each time. I also have Tiller's Smolensk and while that is good the AI will do the same thing every time. Tillers games, while good are alot better playing a human opponent. For those of us that really don't have the time to do turns on a regular basis for a PBEM game, this AI is the next best thing

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 12:20:43 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I need to correct a stupid mistake in my post above:

"I bought France 1940 and found the pace horrifyingly slow..."

I had meant HPS France 1914, a very different game. Anyway, I envy Raizer with his monster PBEM games. So far I have only done Battlefield Academy and Field of Glory, because they are quick and use the awesome Slitherine server.

Best to you!

(in reply to Commanderski)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 2:08:22 AM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		hehe been goin tiller pbem since 1999
btw here is the art we know use and a map mod by Jison-had to cut out some secret stuff lol (no the files size was too big)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by raizer -- 1/18/2011 2:11:26 AM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 2:35:50 AM   
LiquidSky


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Status: offline 		I am on turn 152 of the Stalingrad GC myself(PBEM), so I am half way done.. I did make it to turn 270 in Normandy before we called it a German Major Victory.

But you really cant compare a game with 2 hour turns with one that has week long turns. Panzer campaigns covers an operation, while WiTE covers the whole conflict. PzC fights at company and battalion level. WiTE is Divisional with varied sized support units.

Might as well compare Advanced Squad Leader with World in Flames

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 1/18/2011 2:36:01 AM >

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 4:07:39 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		PzC map has aged pretty well. And unit photos are excellent. You can't help but get excited seeing all those counters. I wonder how long it takes you to do a Stalingrad turn PBEM once the battle is joined?

(in reply to LiquidSky)
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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 9:36:12 AM   
Josh

 

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From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

hehe been goin tiller pbem since 1999
btw here is the art we know use and a map mod by Jison-had to cut out some secret stuff lol (no the files size was too big)



Looking nice, is 3D still optional as well?

(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 28
RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 2:45:23 PM   
raizer

 

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Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		I just finished 2nd battle of kharkov pbem and we started last april...At company and battalion level, It was huge.  There are bigger games out there, stalingrad being one of them.  I still think the full campaign of WITE pbem will be more involved and take as long as any pbem out there-which is a good thing .

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RE: How does this differ from Tiller Panzer Campaigns? - 1/18/2011 3:39:34 PM   
mbar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer
Maybe because some people don't care for the pace of PBEM play? Of the few people I know with WITE & a couple of those also have WITP, none do PBEM. However, thanks to at least engaging AI, that's several hundred dollars in sales that wouldn't have been there without, and I'd wager they aren't the only people who don't PBEM, or at least do regularly play vs the AI.


I've tried PBEM and ultimately had to admit I didn't like it. It was too much like doing your taxes. It felt more like an obligation than fun. If you have a group of guys that you love playing by PBEM then more power too you.

(in reply to Baron von Beer)
Post #: 30
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