Combat Leader: Bang for BUCK?

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Combat Leader: Bang for BUCK? - 9/6/2002 7:18:10 PM

campekenobi

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
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Ok, this is obviously NOT the right place to even dare gripe about a Matrix Game in the works, but I have to at least kinda' take a pole here...

Does any one else think it's a little absurd to charge SIXTY dollars for the game? Now I understand the "support the system" mentality, but I feel it's rather arrogant to post such a hefty price by such a small company that makes a game. No matter HOW sophisticated and intricate, it doesn't compare to the hot sellers of the market that push the graphic & gameplay element to the extreme. Even brand new games from top companies come out with a $50 tag.

My only guess is that Matrix has such a small audience that those who would buy WILL buy regardless, and they know they won't be attracting new audiences.

Please don't justify the "Panthers World at War" was free issue 'coz I paid some dues & bought one of the Mega campaign CDs, which in my opinion was simply to have version 7.1 and support it. I hate mega campaigns, I prefer very small missions, but that's not relevant.

Will I pay $59.99 for Combat Leader? Yes. Because Panthers is such a cool game, but it has neaded a facelift since 1997. I know very little about CL, but I'm assuming it's relatively the same game but w/ better graphics -- which if it is, I don't understand why it has taken so long to produce, but I could be wrong on this count.

Anyway, please feel free to respond, and understand I'm not trying to badmouth Matrix, I love this game, and as I said, will pay for it, but I still think it's an unreasonable cost, and wait.

Post #: 1

- 9/6/2002 7:50:46 PM

Jim1954

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From: Dallas
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It's no more absurd than paying $30,000.00 for a truck or $150,000.00 + for a house. It's what the market will bare that drives the cost. I'd rather pay 60 for something from someone whom I trust will put out and support a good product than 30 or 40 for one that won't. I've been burned by the latter and that, along with a little experience that comes with age, have taught me to be a little more selective in whom I finance. I have had nothing but good experiences from Matrix (all the way from products to support to information.) I'll support them with my $$$ and anything else they need that I might have.

Have you looked at the Combat Leader section of this forum? I don't think this is just a hopped up Steel Panthers. Time will tell, I guess, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.:D :D

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 2

- 9/6/2002 8:10:08 PM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
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From: Finland
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Hopefully they can get an European distributor...say I order it from states. 60$ plus shipping, makes 70-75$. Then add local taxes, about 15$ more so that's 90$ already. And if this game is for some reason shipped via US mail then the Finnish end won't be Finnish Postal Service, but a certain international cargo handling company that will charge about 30$ extra as handlind and declaring costs.

120$ for a game? It better be darn good for that price.

Btw, those of you who were surprised about the last part, this particular thing happened to me last December when I had ordered a pile of books from Warhorse and the packet was held in this company's warehouse until I pay those declaring costs.

highway robbery, I say

Voriax

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Post #: 3

Target audience - 9/6/2002 8:23:05 PM

campekenobi

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Yeah, again, I think the most valid point I make is the target audience; whenever a new expensive technology comes out, for example (Like High Definition TV now), there is that 7% of the population that shells out the mega bucks for it to have it right away at that price, then 5 years down the road the price is for feasable for 20% more of the population, etc... Everyone who subsribe to this FORUM will buy Combat Leader for whatever cost, but you have to look at the BIG PICTURE.

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Post #: 4

- 9/6/2002 8:31:59 PM

Warhorse

Posts: 5712
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Voriax, that was highway robbery, the Postal Service should be ashamed! Unfortunately, there was nothing I could legally do on my end to change things either, I must play by the rules, or can get burnt really bad by the government here!!:(

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Post #: 5

- 9/6/2002 8:32:35 PM

AbsntMndedProf

Posts: 1780
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From: Boston, Massachusetts
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You always pay more for hand-crafted goods than ones that are mass produced. I've bought other games in the past from big software companies for $20.00 to $30.00 that weren't worth half their price tag, IMHO. If paying a few extra dollars means keeping a company like Matrixgames around, I'd rather take the time to save the extra money.

If I had to choose between the mass-market arcade style games the big companies churn out lately and one of the calibre of SP:WaW, give me the latter every time!

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 6

- 9/6/2002 8:43:00 PM

Voriax

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Warhorse, that's okay. Can't blame you about EU laws and lack of co-operation between national postal services.

Voriax

ps. I found my 'want' list..mailing it soon.

_____________________________

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Post #: 7

- 9/6/2002 9:19:02 PM

Charles2222

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I was going to say that the complaintant should look at the SPWAW logo screen and should be able to figure out that this isn't just an SSI soop-up job, but that it's by a completely different company, that just happens to be taking on somethign of the same theme as SP. Then I remembered, that part of the logo screen(s) involve the Matrix logo as well, so I can see how it can get easily confused, perhaps one might think that Matrix was just SSI with a new name; it can get so confusing.

In any case, while this game may seem to just be a pretty-up job on SPWAW, realize that SP isn't even Matrix's product, but that it's basically on loan. Also if the promised operational overlay comes through, it will be quite unlike any prodcut to date gameplay-wise too.

$40 is what you charge for something that's cookie-cutter and might be just a little better graphically than it's predecessors, alongside it's having an even more slavish audience (they'll buy virtually anything that hits the shelves) who they can depend on in far greater numbers. I recall War in Russia was pretty innovative for it's time, getting down to individual numbers of tanksetc, to where you didn't just have generics such as 7-6-4 for ratings, and it was priced at between $70-80. How long ago was that? Maybe 10 years ago? I probably got $500 or more value out of that game, whereas most of the graphical games have barely reached the value they asked for it. If SPWAW or SPWW2 were on the market today, gameplay-wise, while likely as good as CL will be, they would still be worth $60 to me, so the question of CL being worth $60 is a no-brainer. Only if CL didn't have an operational overlay, alongside it's competition of SPWAW/SPWW2 being free, would I even consider that it might not be worth $60, if for no other reason than I tire of just winning a battle without it having an affect for the nation I'm playing in a more profound way. In short, CL should be to tactical gaming, what War in Russia was to strategic gaming, in that it should have some way of relating to a nation winning or losing through you battles. In WIR you would lose production of various portions of industry and important lines of supply by losing battles. In CL you should lose various supplies, such as fuel, if you don't cover your operational hexes well enough, and I understand that this is what is in mind. Losing a battle on an operational hex somewhere else, in some cases ought to affect what kind of units and/or supply you're able to dedicate somewhere else, which would be innovative, alongside the idea of actually being able to ever reach those so-called offboard artillery units, which no matter how many consequetive battles you won in SP, were always offboard and never blitzed no matter how quickly and handily it was done. Ah, how satisfying it would be to concentrate force and blitz through an enemy flank and run upon their offboard aircraft hex!

Captive audience or not, I don't know a game where I can at least dream that such things are possibilites.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 8

- 9/6/2002 11:28:23 PM

rbrunsman

Posts: 1837
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]And if this game is for some reason shipped via US mail then the Finnish end won't be Finnish Postal Service, but a certain international cargo handling company that will charge about 30$ extra as handlind and declaring costs.[/B][/QUOTE]

What the hell has happened to the Postal Services? In 1989 I shipped packages to the US from India for less than $10 (IIRC) directly to my parents. And, from Kenya (a big container too!) and Zaire for less than $20 each (IIRC). They were all delivered several weeks later by the US Postal Service without so much as a hint of a holdup. Is this extortion a Finnish or EU thing?

________________________

As for the price of CL: I bought SP1 and SP2 as soon as they were released. I bought SP3 in the bargain bin but never actually played it. I have MCLV & MCDF (haven't even installed that one yet). Together that is about $140. I consider these purchases to be one of the greatest entertainment bargains I've ever gotten. I measure a game's value by dividing its cost by the number of hours of enjoyment I get out of it. I figure that over the years I have at least 1000 hours of enjoyment in this series and I am still not tired of it. There is no other game that comes close to the value of this game (CivilizationII is the next closest). If CL is at least as good then I'll gladly buy it at (almost) any price. Consider that your baseline for comparison is about $4/hour for watching a movie. Or $6 for a paperback book you read once. The Steel Panthers series has easily entertained all of us on the Forum for pennies per hour (or free if you only jumped in with SPWAW). If CL's price is high, then I'll just make it a gift to myself for X-mas or my B-day. If it is <$70, I'll buy it with my lunch money.

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Post #: 9

One more bitter comment - 9/6/2002 11:48:56 PM

campekenobi

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]

If CL's price is high, then I'll just make it a gift to myself for X-mas or my B-day [/B][/QUOTE]

I guess that would be x-mas 2003! So I hope your birthday is closer to February.

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Post #: 10

- 9/7/2002 12:28:53 AM

Commander Klank

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/15/2000
From: Killleen, Texas
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Regardless of the cost the video card requirment of CL has me out of the game for any time soon.

I'm sure I'm not the only one with this "problum":(

Too bad they wouldn't include a "dumbed down" version of the game on the CD that uses the same video settings as the current SPWAW.

Then I'd by it:D

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Commander Klank

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Post #: 11

- 9/7/2002 12:31:57 AM

dox44

Posts: 668
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From: the woodlands, texas
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$60.00 doesn't sound that bad to me...i've spent more on worse
things...

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Post #: 12

- 9/7/2002 2:35:52 AM

Voriax

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Rbrunsman, it's US mail and EU combined. EU law says that a parcel must be declared when it enters EU area. And the US Mail has done a deal with this cargo handler that they take care of the shipping from some US collection centre onwards. Who knows, might actually be Bin Laden's fault too as this practise started last December.

Voriax

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Post #: 13

- 9/7/2002 3:39:12 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmm looks like it's time for the usual reminder about buying anything from anyone in the US, when you live in a country that doesn't happen to be the continental US.

But rather than rambling in a boring fashion, I will merely direct you to the Matrix Hall of Heroes forum.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23921

Margaret is the answer to the brain dead expenditure levels for any game from any company if you just don't happen to live in the continental US.

For those that don't wish to check out my solution that you will find there, please, go ahead, continue to pay idiotic prices for software.

Friendship is a powerful thing. Of course you must have the friend BEFORE you can expect this to work.

I will not be paying more than 2 bucks extra for Combat Leader. You don't need to be paying more than me either (regardless of your country of origin).

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Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 14

- 9/7/2002 3:40:14 AM

chief

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Cdr Klank: thank you for writing my sentiments exactly....I'd have to buy a new puter for CL...well I can dream on:( :cool:

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Post #: 15

- 9/7/2002 3:50:30 AM

Voriax

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From: Finland
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Les, that method is exactly what I plan to do...then only local taxes are added. Best solution would of course be European distributor. Btw, new games cost already around 50-55$ here so compared to that 60$ isn't that much.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 16

- 9/7/2002 4:34:32 PM

young turk

Posts: 138
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From: istanbul, turkey
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matrix seems to be in the habit of overpricing all of their games.

they also seem to complain a lot about lack of support and low sales.

you would think somebody at the company would make the correlation, but what do i know?

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Post #: 17

- 9/7/2002 6:46:29 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmmm you won't make many allies with that view young turk.

20 bucks US for a Mega Campaign is not what I call expensive. If getting that 20 dollar game to my crappy country ends up outrageously expensive, that is the fault of the crappy country really.

It might have cost me an additional 21 bucks to get it into Canada for instance.

Might have......

But I decided that was unacceptable, hence the reason I went the route I did.

Now I have a game called Heroes of Might and Magic IV. It is after all the 4th extrapolation of the game. Yes it is not exceedingly different from Heroes III, which was not exceedingly different from Heroes II.
But Heroes IV still cost me 60 bucks (Canadian in this case).
60 bucks (Canadian) might seem like a lot of money to some, for a game that is essentially just a reworked program.
After all it only really features really improved graphics and a new look to the battle portion of the game.
But in my opinion, it was still so mouch more cool than Heroes III.

Still some people will obviously want something for nothing. I see this attitude a lot. Over on Battlefront I have actually seen people make statements that are thinly disguised scams.
I have witnessed several persons make comments that are blatant attempts to get the ability to play the game for free. And this is a totally new game, that only costs 25 bucks.
So no matter the price, some people will always respond in some maner that shows, they don't have much respect for the hobby.

Just to put a perspective on the cost of Combat Leader at 60 bucks. Try this.

Currently a copy of ASL Rulebook will go for about 90 bucks (Canadian). That by the way is 90 bucks for a manual for a board game that has been around longer than computer wargaming. If you actually want to play the game, you have to at least buy a module. The first module in the series being Beyond Valour (Russian Front, hmmm yet again Russian Front being the logical choice for an entry product). Beyond Valour is again about 90 bucks (Canadian). These are locale prices from retailers, I don't know what the cost would be direct from MMP through mail.

In the end you will see, that Combat Leader, that can do everything that ASL can do, is 60 bucks, while ASL which is admittedly the golden child of wargaming, is going to cost you 180 bucks (Canadian). Sorry about the combination of Canadian Prices and US prices (if you want visit MMP's site for US totals).

Therefore, to a great number of gamers (because most Combat Leader fans, are ASL fans too), 60 bucks for Combat Leader matched up with the price of ASL (which by the way includes about hmmm 2000 dollars worth of stuff in the end), is not only nothing worthy of comment, its a bargain.

Now if Mega Company A B C and D can produce yet another ****ty arcady mass marketed wargame wanna be product for 10 bucks cheaper than an exclusive compan like Matrix which sells superior customer input based games. Well so what.

That 10 bucks might well be like buying the insurance that you often pay out, to ensure your product is free of defects, or is supported if something does in fact go wrong.

I KNOW if Combat Leader has a snag it will be fixed. I also KNOW if company A B C or D makes a crappy game, I have just bought a crappy game, and will have to buy the "gold edition" at about the same price to get all the fixing done.

Low sales was just a reflection of Matrix learning the ropes in marketing me thinks.
Their products are not at all over priced though.

There is NO correlation in my opinion.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 18

- 9/7/2002 7:03:26 PM

Frank W.

Posts: 1958
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for shure most EURO gamers will not buy one of those games,because high game price + high shipping price=
only rich ppl. can afford......

same goes f. U.Valor.

i hope that "war in the pacific" will be priced somewhat lower
and will be sold in EUROLAND,too because i like the idea playing the whole pac. war in this high detail level.

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Post #: 19

- 9/7/2002 8:05:37 PM

Belisarius

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I'm sure Duchet will bring CL onto their shelves. In that case I'm happy, since they are inside EU. :cool:

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Post #: 20

- 9/7/2002 10:07:29 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Again, (seems no one is listening in Europe), the price you pay in Europe is either the price they tell you to pay in Europe, or the price a wise consumer pays.

You have no one to blame in the end, but yourself if you take it lying down.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 21

- 9/7/2002 10:33:26 PM

Arralen

Posts: 827
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Let me see, what can I add about ..

... 30- or 60-bucks-games:
I bought

- EF2000
$30, barely playable with annoying bugs remaining

- M.A.X.
$15, really ****ed up with the latest patch, unplayable

- MAX2
$2 .. just for curiosity .. worse that MAX

- Great Naval Battles 3
$30 .. barely playbable, crashes regularly, very annoying bugs eve with latest patch

- Age of Sail
$5 .. piece of ******

.. and I could continue this list quite a bit (all prices conv. to $ for convenience). And most of these games I bought quite some time ago, and not for the full release price. Today those companies charge $45 for their games, and quality and support have become worse, not better.

So I would gladly give Matrix Games some $60 for a game that is playable and is supported as long as needed - not only 'til the release of the next megaseller.

combat leader
As you can check out easily, CL isn't just a reworked Steel Panthers. SPWAW was that, and has take that kind of game to the extreme. CL goes far beyond that, internally using realistic models of the vehicles instead of "shoe boxes" as in SPWAW, which where already a great improvement over the hit-point model used in Steel Panthers 1 (IIRC) and still used in some RTS-games with a similar setting. (won't quote names here ;) )
I could go on about CLs features but you better check them out in the CL forum and the product page.

yours,
A.

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Post #: 22

- 9/7/2002 11:17:03 PM

AbsntMndedProf

Posts: 1780
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Well said Arralen!

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 23

- 9/8/2002 12:06:49 AM

Bing

Posts: 1366
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UV is overpriced for what it does. CL at sixty bucks and Eastern Front only?

Lost Victories, then starting CL with Eastern Front? Appeals to the small group that thinks of nothing but WW2 Eastern Front action - if that is all they can think about, that is all we will get.

At a time when WW2 computer wargaming is centered on Western Europe - D-Day - et seq, don't be surprised if CL sells poorly. Those already steeped in EF will buy it, but they would anyway.

The rest of us? That remains to be seen. There are plenty of games out there that provide lots of realistic action for less than sixty bucks - a lot less. My price point has been exceeded. To each his/her own.

Bing

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Post #: 24

- 9/8/2002 1:28:38 AM

Frank W.

Posts: 1958
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i think Bing you are right in some ways....

and i think,too that tactical level games are
really some good ones on the market. not to
forget combat mission 2 which too is set on
the eastern front. so perhaps the new matrix
tactic level games will have hard days....

but in case of great operational games on
strategic level (both maritime and ground unit
based ones) there are not much alternatives
to games like war in russia or war in the pacific.

so i see better chances for these games.

and i would perhaps buy them rather than
combat leader....perhaps a reason, too is
that i still like SPWAW too much and have not
played all camps and scens........

than i would play combat mission 1 or fulda gap
or silent hunter 2 before buying another one.

on the other hand,if you have enough time and money
and not much more games to play buy all matrix
games,of course even with 60$ price.

depends very much on your personnal prefs
and situation

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 25

- 9/8/2002 1:31:59 AM

AbsntMndedProf

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Bing posted:

"Lost Victories, then starting CL with Eastern Front? Appeals to the small group that thinks of nothing but WW2 Eastern Front action - if that is all they can think about, that is all we will get.

At a time when WW2 computer wargaming is centered on Western Europe - D-Day - et seq, don't be surprised if CL sells poorly."

You could be right. However, one way to expand a business is to find an area of the market that it under-sold. It could be that the Western Front market may be saturated, and that another Eastern Front game may do well, if it receives good p.r. (Of course, it does help to know why a sector of the market receives low marketing attention; is it because noone thought to go after it, or is it because the market is too small?)

Even so, if CL Eastern Front were a 'stand alone' game, I would agree that $60.00 might be excessive. However, CL promises to be a platform for other modules to come, including Western Front and Modern modules. (One would hope that the modules would be less expensive than the original platform.)

In any case, each of us has to make our own minds up as to how much we are willing to spend on a game, or any other purchase. I hope enough people will buy CL so that there will be many other modules to come!

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 26

- 9/8/2002 1:39:16 AM

Charles2222

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Bing: Don't sell short the East. I'm not sure why you'd think the West was more popular, apart from thinking that you might believe everyone wants to play the USA (which is close to last on my list to want to play). Also, if you're not a campaigner then this might not appeal to you, but to play CL properly you just might have to become something of a campaigner, but nonetheless, consider how in the West you have basically everything that is available at the start available at the end. IOW the East has a considerable amount of longevity about it, to where there's strategy invloved on just what you'll upgrade when. Also recall the drama of the East compared to the West. The West was pretty much D-Day onwards and there wasn't much potential for Gerry to succeed even locally, whereas the East was very much a front of both sides have superiority for long periods.

You are hereby charged with being guilty of underestimating the power of the dark front.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 27

- 9/8/2002 2:32:12 AM

Paul Vebber

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I paid $59.99 for SP1 over 5 years ago. The original PACWAR cost me $79.99 ten years ago.

THat "mass market games have come dow to the 30-40 dollar range has little bearing on wargames, since we have found that the "computer gamer" is not the best market to target for computer wargame - the history buff who owns a computer is.

What else out there sells for teh same it did 5 to 10 years ago?

And I think you will find the quality of CL and WITP far above what the predecessors delieved for similar price long ago. The new Combat Mission is going for 45 - depends on your strategy, you can sell each game for 45 or can sell the "original for more, and then discount the add-ons. Heck Advanced Squad Leader is 60 bucks just for the RULES...

Game sales are relatively inelastic. Frank Hunter tells the tale of offering a game for 15 dollars and it didn't sell any better than one priced higher. one data point, one data point, but a telling one.

The price reflects not just "what the market will bear" but the cost of doing business. That puts the price for games between 40 and 70 bucks, depending on the effort put in. If you have 6 or 8 people working on a game, youhave to make evnough to make it worththe while of those contributing. It sure isn't enough for them to quit their day jobs...regardless of the price. There just aren't enough wargamers anymore...

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Post #: 28

- 9/8/2002 3:02:03 AM

Belisarius

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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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[QUOTE]THat "mass market games have come dow to the 30-40 dollar range has little bearing on wargames, since we have found that the "computer gamer" is not the best market to target for computer wargame - the history buff who owns a computer is.[/QUOTE]

Right on.

C'mon, how many of you guys wouldn't cough up 60 bucks for a good book on WWII stuff? :p And you would consider it cheap, too!

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Post #: 29

- 9/8/2002 3:13:18 AM

Bing

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"The original PACWAR cost me $79.99 ten years ago. " - You got hosed, Paul. I still have my sales slip from buying PacWar at the same itme - it was $39.99 - they must have seen you coming, or you just liked the vendor a whole lot. Never heard of anyone paying that kind of money for Grigsby's PacWar - that IS Grigsby's PacWar, isn't it?

Bing

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From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 30