PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/16/2011 7:33:00 PM

santino250

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline

I am having problems training any of my pilots...

Example:
Fighter Pilots that are based in US that are training in US are set to TRAIN : ESCORT set to 70.. their EX levels are around 40, and have had them trianing for over 6 months...
They have gained no expertise levels, and their EX level has gained very little...

I have sent many pilots to TRAM, that were in combat.. the same goes for my naval and bomber pilots....

Anytime I go to battle with my carriers, the pilots are decimated... It is September 43..

Am I doing something wrong in there training?

Post #: 1

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/16/2011 7:42:46 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

Initially, I rest/stand down all my air units in the USA until their morale reaches 99. Then, I ensure their range is set to less than 2 hexes (helps minimize op losses). Finally, I set them at 100% training for their primary mission. With fighters, it is Escort. PBYs to Naval Search and/or ASW. Level bombers are mainly ground attack, but some will be for naval attack. It will take a few months to get them up to 70 experience or close enough for use.

Once trained up, left click to put them into group reserve and one more left click to put them into general reserve.

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 2

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 12:26:53 AM

CaptBeefheart

Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline

Do you have good leaders in those squadrons? I always try to put 70+ exp/70+ skill pilots in each training squadron.

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 3

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 2:22:50 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: santino250

I am having problems training any of my pilots...

Example:
Fighter Pilots that are based in US that are training in US are set to TRAIN : ESCORT set to 70.. their EX levels are around 40, and have had them trianing for over 6 months...
They have gained no expertise levels, and their EX level has gained very little...

I have sent many pilots to TRAM, that were in combat.. the same goes for my naval and bomber pilots....

Anytime I go to battle with my carriers, the pilots are decimated... It is September 43..

Am I doing something wrong in there training?

You are looking at the wrong data. Experience is not something you really explicitly train for. You train up specific skill levels and the experience will increase as a byproduct of improved multiple skill levels.

In your situation I suspect you have spent 6 months training up only 1 skill set. Your pilots are probably already at level 70 in thatt skill set, consequently any further improvement in that skill and experieince will be extremely slow. Change to training another skill or use "general training" to get your experience above 40.

Alfred

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 4

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 11:57:34 AM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

In your situation I suspect you have spent 6 months training up only 1 skill set. Your pilots are probably already at level 70 in thatt skill set, consequently any further improvement in that skill and experieince will be extremely slow. Change to training another skill or use "general training" to get your experience above 40.

Thanks a lot, I didn't know that.
Do you think it's a good "curricilum" to train "general" up to, say, level 50, and then switch to specific training?

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 5

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 12:03:05 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

I don't have a lot of experience with it but have noticed that General is very, very literal.

I saw experience gains scattered quite randomly across every last skill category, even ones I have no desire for my pilots to acquire.

After all, what good is NavBombing skill to a fighter pilot?

Ever since observing this result I have avoided using General.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Rainer)

Post #: 6

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 12:03:49 PM

Mike Dixon

Posts: 382
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: Newcastle upon Tyne, England
Status: offline

I've also found that you should move the flyboys to thier air HQ - training seems to speed up enormously

(in reply to Rainer)

Post #: 7

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 1:08:09 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

In your situation I suspect you have spent 6 months training up only 1 skill set. Your pilots are probably already at level 70 in thatt skill set, consequently any further improvement in that skill and experieince will be extremely slow. Change to training another skill or use "general training" to get your experience above 40.

Thanks a lot, I didn't know that.
Do you think it's a good "curricilum" to train "general" up to, say, level 50, and then switch to specific training?

Rainer,

It depends on what exactly your objective is. I don't know exactly what that is for you, so the following comments may not be appropriate for your situation.

Generally speaking, I think you will find that concentrating on training discrete flying skill sets will be the best means for improving your pilot's experience level. You might consider the following training regime.

1. Fighter unit.

(a) put unit on 100% training
(b) choose "escort" training mission
(c) select altitude of 10k feet or higher

This should result in increasing air skill. Your pilots will probably reach air skill level 70 but still be below 50 experience. Their defence skills will also have increased as a result of this "escort" training but will probably remain some way below your air skill. Now

(d) choose "sweep" training mission
(e) select altitude of 100 feet

This should result in increasing your "straffing" skill. Again, as under the "escort" training both your experience and defence will have increased albeit at a slower rate.

If your pilots still have experience under 50, then train on a third skill set. Use "general" training if the pilots are already trained to a high skill level in the skill sets you consider important for fighter units.

2. Dive bombers

(a) put on 100% training
(b) choose "naval attack" training mission
(c) select 14k altitude

For a second skill set,

(d) choose "ground attack"

Remember, experience is gained quickest from surviving combat.

In training it is acquired as a byproduct of improving flying skills which improve at a faster rate than does experience.

For some aircraft types, the availability of training missions is limited. For these, "general" training is particularly valuable. For example, transport units allow only "transport" and "general" for training missions.

Alfred

(in reply to Rainer)

Post #: 8

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 4:06:07 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

Use "general" training if the pilots are already trained to a high skill level in the skill sets you consider important for fighter units.

Thank you Alfred.
The part in bold within the quote was the question I am after.
So the curriculum would be to train specific skills (one or more), and when that specific skill(s) have reached an acceptable level switch to general training.

What I'm trying to achieve: I have a group of Beaufighter VIf (No. 176 RAF Nightfighters) at Calcutta with training mission "Sweep".
They are at level 46 and very slowly increasing. All pilots have a level >52 in "Air" and "Defn". Everything else is 20 to 30. I understand I should now give them a new training mission (let's say Escort or Airfield Attack), and when they have reached sufficient levels there then I switch to General (if at all).

To make a long story short: to achieve high levels of Average Experience more than one skill should be trained. Correct?

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 9

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 4:59:46 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

Use "general" training if the pilots are already trained to a high skill level in the skill sets you consider important for fighter units.

Thank you Alfred.
The part in bold within the quote was the question I am after.
So the curriculum would be to train specific skills (one or more), and when that specific skill(s) have reached an acceptable level switch to general training.

What I'm trying to achieve: I have a group of Beaufighter VIf (No. 176 RAF Nightfighters) at Calcutta with training mission "Sweep".
They are at level 46 and very slowly increasing. All pilots have a level >52 in "Air" and "Defn". Everything else is 20 to 30. I understand I should now give them a new training mission (let's say Escort or Airfield Attack), and when they have reached sufficient levels there then I switch to General (if at all).

To make a long story short: to achieve high levels of Average Experience more than one skill should be trained. Correct?

Yes.

In my praxis, I find that I don't have to resort all that often to using the "general" training mission. To use fighter pilots as an example, most rookie USA/USMC/USN/Aust pilots arrive from the general pool around about the 30 experience level. For them I usually find that training on 2 flying skill sets (up to about 70 level approximately) is usually sufficient for them to reach 50+ experience. Chinese and Soviet pilots who first arrive at a lower flying skill set need more time to get to 50 experience.

In your situation regarding No 176 RAF, you should still be able to achieve a steady rate of increase in air skill if you keep them at "escort" training on night operations at 10k altitude. At least my own praxis with that very same unit supports my contention. Their rate of increase seems to slow down, but not completely disappear once they reach about 65 air skill. Sweep training at 100 or 1k feet seems to be more beneficial for defence rather than air.

Alfred

(in reply to Rainer)

Post #: 10

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 5:30:36 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

If you use train 100%, set the range to 0. Altitude is irrelevant as far as I know for training, but I'm curious if this has been tested.

Also, strafing skill is utterly useless. Train your fighter pilots up to skill 70 in air. At that point, feed them to the wolves.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 11

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 5:37:09 PM

Mike Dixon

Posts: 382
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: Newcastle upon Tyne, England
Status: offline

Mynok

Strafing skill is useless but training this way also increases the defence skill, which I think is useful

Mike

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 12

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 5:52:49 PM

Rob Brennan UK

Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline

quote:

(d) choose "sweep" training mission
(e) select altitude of 100 feet

This should result in increasing your "straffing" skill. Again, as under the "escort" training both your experience and defence will have increased albeit at a slower rate.

You can also replicate this by setting ground attack 100ft range 0-1 (i use 1) this skill isnt useless but not often used i agree. however this set of training after getting air skills 60-70 improves the defence skill which imo is very valaube as you want your pilots back after combat to get exp not dead in a jungle.

quote:

Also, strafing skill is utterly useless. Train your fighter pilots up to skill 70 in air. At that point, feed them to the wolves.

I havnt tested this but dont figher bombers use this skill while on nav attack at 100ft ? i.e skip bombing instead of lownav ? not tried it yet but i will and report back at a later date. Beaufighters especially (i find) are great at bomber defence and barge busting while not great in air-air , meaning that strafe can be more important than air skills in some rare circumstances.

_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to Mike Dixon)

Post #: 13

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 7:30:06 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

night operations

Of course, they don't learn much about night fighting when training in bright sunlight

I will switch them to Escort now.

BTW, I had them train Sweep because that is what comes close to Intercept, which is not part of the game.
Initially I planned to have them train Airfield Attack.
Now, thanks to you, I know I have to train them in several types of mission (probably Escort, Airfield Attack and Sweep) in order to have a broader set of skills, and ultimately a better level of Average Experience.
And no, they will not be send to the front until their Average Experience is better than 50. Not with that equipment the taxpayer had so much money to pay for

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 14

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 8:22:43 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

quote:

Also, strafing skill is utterly useless. Train your fighter pilots up to skill 70 in air. At that point, feed them to the wolves.

I havnt tested this but dont figher bombers use this skill while on nav attack at 100ft ? i.e skip bombing instead of lownav ? not tried it yet but i will and report back at a later date. Beaufighters especially (i find) are great at bomber defence and barge busting while not great in air-air , meaning that strafe can be more important than air skills in some rare circumstances.

In all the discussions I've seen, the only planes that use strafing are attack bombers, and that's only if you have the latest patch. Even then, damage doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

Defensive skills also train by training for Air skill. You are better off continuing with your air skill training than bothering with strafing training.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)

Post #: 15

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 8:42:43 PM

FatR

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer
Thanks a lot, I didn't know that.
Do you think it's a good "curricilum" to train "general" up to, say, level 50, and then switch to specific training?

No. Train a secondary skill to 55-60 and the main one for the plane type to 70. This will give EXP about 50 and Defense about 65 on average.

If the plane type needs three skills (for example, you want your divebombers to be proficient at NavB, NavS and also ASW), consider stopping training them all at slightly above 60, unless we talk about crucial airgroups (read: carrier airgroups), as they will still hit the point of diminishing results at about this moment, and the further improvement will be quite slow.

Oh, and as about training strafing - try training LowN instead. Still will increase EXP and Defense, and is not useless by itself.

< Message edited by FatR -- 1/17/2011 8:45:10 PM >

(in reply to Rainer)

Post #: 16

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 8:47:15 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

60? I have zero trouble getting a skill to 70. Haven't tried to push much past that because at that point they head into the fray. Defensive skills at that point are decent and exp in the 40s. They gain exp much faster in combat than in training.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 17

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 10:32:24 PM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

i may be out, but it's my understanding that pilots only gain Exp when tasked to combat ops - when the Group Mission = Training, pilots will gain in skills but not in exp. To increase Exp, set your group-in-training to the desired mission (ASW, Escort, whatev), w/ 50% to the mission, 50% to training.

adjust as needed, by assigning a %age to rest, to keep morale high & fatigue low. i agree w/ what other posters have mentioned:
- keep range at 0 or 1 to reduce fatigue gain & ops losses.
- assign a leader w/ high values in the desired skills.

also, keep the assigned altitude as low as possible, consistent w/ the mission you're training for (set dive-bombers at 11k). higher-altitude flying = increased fatigue!

& another thing - when transferring groups to different bases, set their altitude to 5k - to minimize fatigue incr & ops losses during the transfer.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 1/17/2011 10:59:28 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 18

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 10:39:16 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

i may be out, but it's my understanding that pilots only gain Exp when tasked to combat ops

No, the group I'm talking about never saw combat but still shows exp increase. Slowly though. The individual assigned skills grow much faster.

But one thing is certain - combat increases exp really fast, no doubt about that.

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 19

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/17/2011 11:29:50 PM

LeeChard

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline

Alfred, I'm curious on the dive bomb training. Why is it set at 14,000ft? I've been training at 10,000 assuming that the recommended bombing altitude would be best.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 20

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/18/2011 12:18:21 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

Alfred, I'm curious on the dive bomb training. Why is it set at 14,000ft? I've been training at 10,000 assuming that the recommended bombing altitude would be best.

I use 14k because it is within the dive bombing altitude envelope and helps to safeguard against forgetting to assign the dive bombing altitude if I place the dive bomber unit on active duty. Any altitude within that envelope would do. Essentially I treat it as an aide memoire.

I find I incur minimal operational losses irrespective of what altitude I train at. Even at 100% training for 6 months my operational losses remain minimal, so I am absolutely unconcerned as to the fatigue levels. I am most scupulous (a) to not have a unit training beyond its normal range, and (b) there is at least 1 aviation support for each plane (whether on training or on active duty) at the airbase. For example my Beaufighter Ic were set to train 100% at range 9 and did/still not/do incur any training losses, even after months of training.

If you want to be ultra conservative, the advice given by others to train at range 0 etc will maintain operational losses to acceptable levels.

Alfred

(in reply to LeeChard)

Post #: 21

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/18/2011 1:10:16 AM

FatR

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
60? I have zero trouble getting a skill to 70. Haven't tried to push much past that because at that point they head into the fray. Defensive skills at that point are decent and exp in the 40s. They gain exp much faster in combat than in training.

There are at least two points of significantly diminishing returns in training. At around skill 60-65 improvement slows down considerably (EXP seems also to be a factor here, the higher it is, the slower is improvemnt). After 70-71 it becomes completely glacial and therefore only feasible for carrier air groups who often don't have anything better to do while their carriers sit in ports and justify even small improvements due to their importance.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 22

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 1/18/2011 2:01:35 PM

santino250

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline

How can you can their Range, or individual skill sets... besides setting escort and altitude?

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 23

RE: PILOT TRAINING PROBLEMS - 3/11/2011 2:48:47 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

60? I have zero trouble getting a skill to 70. Haven't tried to push much past that because at that point they head into the fray. Defensive skills at that point are decent and exp in the 40s. They gain exp much faster in combat than in training.

Skills approach 70 asymptotically. I'll pull 'em in the high 60s when I get tired of waiting longer and the time is right for my pilot harvest. Around that time (fighters) the EXP is usually in the high 40s / low 50s. Exception: I won't pull them for the front lines unless the defense skill is >50, regardless of the EXP or skill.

Lastly, altitude for training does make a difference for bomber pilots. For example, set naval attack / bombs training to <5000 and LowNav will be trained. >5000 will get you Nav training-different skill sets.

_____________________________