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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/12/2011 5:52:30 PM   
Ullern


Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

With regards to the AI knowing chit values, I concur that since there is one AIO controlling an entire side, the USSR AIO is allowed to know US entry chit values (being equivalent to there being a single Allied human player).

If this were not the case, the AIO would not be eligible to know chit values; Extraneous' reading of the rule is correct in that light.

With regards to the considerations:
quote:


• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.


I would say the USSR must have a unit in range to occupy Eastern Poland from the start of the game (whether they intend to or not), and as precious as 5 land moves an impulse is, in 1939 it's not like the USSR has that many land units or wars going on so it damn well better reserve a land move to do the deed.


I concur.

And back to the original question:


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk


Whether to occupy Eastern Poland is deception is modified by:
• Is conquest of Poland imminent?
• Is any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
• Is any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
• Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
• Are German attacks in Poland stalled?
• Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse?
• Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
• Is the weather bad?
• Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high?



You have a bullet "claim of Bessarabia imminent" but I do usually claim Bessarabia before I occupy Eastern Poland. But if I claim Bessarabia and Germany declines, then I usually have to take Eastern Poland for my attack on Romania. You need a bullet for such a situation as well don't you?

A completely different point is that from what Steve wrote it seems to me that the script will fill the function of planing the operation as well. For this particular case planning the operation is very easy since it only takes a single land units which *must* set up there from the start. (But for Finnish borderlands planning the situation means to set up the attack maybe in Jan/Feb 40, and that's means moving a lot of unit to Karelia after initial set up.)

But my point is that this means the script needs to have certain standards.
All the points
quote:


• Is any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
• Is any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
• Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
• Are German attacks in Poland stalled?
• Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse?
• Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
• Is the weather bad?

(that was 7 of the 9 original bullets) are questions that must be reevaluated at every impulse because they are valid for only one impulse at a time, and in general these points are not important at all for planning. They are only important when you are evaluating if you are going to do it this very impulse or not.
While the two remaining points is what's really important for planning:
quote:


98% Is conquest of Poland imminent?
2% Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high?

The % is how important I think they are compared to one another.

That was my input. Hope it was some help.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 361
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/12/2011 9:44:01 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks for all input on Eastern Poland so far.

But I have one tricky question left for you WIF gurus. If the USSR does not occupy Eastern Poland, how bad disadvantage do you think it is? Ex let’s say during a Barbarossa attack that Germany saves about 2 impulses of attacks and moves for starting in Eastern Poland. How many Russian 4-4 INF would you need to scarify to compensate for the forward starting positions of the Germans?

Note that the positive side of not occupying Eastern Poland is the advantage of is no risk of US entry hit for the Allies -> that might lead to US entry in the war a whole turn earlier and one more turn of mighty US production.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Ullern)
Post #: 362
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/12/2011 10:23:45 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		If you know what you are doing as Russia you don't need Eastern Poland - provided your strategy isn't based on speed bumps (which it shouldn't)

The logic is this. Most Russian players use speed bumbs to create an illusion they slow down the Germans significantly who in any case only can advance 3 hexes an impulse with their slow infantry i.e. if they can move 2 hexes and advance a further hex due to combat its break even. Sure fast units can move further but sooner or later you need those slow buggers to secure your flanks. When the main fighting begins at the river lines you have thrown away what - 30+ BP? Use those 10 - 15 corps behind the lines to prevent breakthroughs instead - thats a much better investment.

So the cunning German player will naturally attack during bad weather and as early as late 40 if given the choice (and attack with all INF/MTN). The swamps are no obstacle during snow prolonging the russian line to defend and overwhelming odds alone will kill the speed bumbs. The rationale is use bad weather to reach the main defence line, make a few blitz attacks to get beachheads and then use offensive chits in the first clear impulse to break it.

So the answer to that strategy is to minimize use of speed bumbs using those "spared" BP to hold your main defence river lines until the clear weather turns up. Adolf can't make any serious breach in bad weather so you should be able to do that provided you know what you are doing.

Following this all Eastern Poland buy you is 1 or 2 bad weather impulses so why bother? Same story with the Baltic states. Save all that US-entry, keep Persia neutral (if wallies can protect Egypt) and trade it for early LL of resources and BP - additional units is always better than indefensible terrain.

The price for not taking Eatern Poland is IMO a speed bump in Minsk and an overrun proof GAR on the 3 resources hex in the Ukraine to protect the river line in the surprise impulse. Don't bother about places like Chisinau and Odessa. They will just be obliterated by secondary units.

My defense is usuallt 90 % of my airforce and ARM/MECH in the south with a very strong INF defense line, a hedgehog defence in the north and ZOC defence in forests with mobile infantry/AT.

I have played WIF for ages also at Euro WIF con and this works. USSR doesn't have to rely on speed bumps to survive though that is also a viable strategy.

So my answer to peskpesk is use a lousy GAR and a good GAR as the only speed bumbs.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 363
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 3:27:24 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		What about trying to hold Odessa and the railway from Odessa just one impulse to be able to rail its factory? Is is worth it or the price of losing corps to hold it one impulse is too heavy?

_____________________________

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(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 364
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 4:51:42 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

If you know what you are doing as Russia you don't need Eastern Poland - provided your strategy isn't based on speed bumps (which it shouldn't)

The logic is this. Most Russian players use speed bumbs to create an illusion they slow down the Germans significantly who in any case only can advance 3 hexes an impulse with their slow infantry i.e. if they can move 2 hexes and advance a further hex due to combat its break even. Sure fast units can move further but sooner or later you need those slow buggers to secure your flanks. When the main fighting begins at the river lines you have thrown away what - 30+ BP? Use those 10 - 15 corps behind the lines to prevent breakthroughs instead - thats a much better investment.

So the cunning German player will naturally attack during bad weather and as early as late 40 if given the choice (and attack with all INF/MTN). The swamps are no obstacle during snow prolonging the russian line to defend and overwhelming odds alone will kill the speed bumbs. The rationale is use bad weather to reach the main defence line, make a few blitz attacks to get beachheads and then use offensive chits in the first clear impulse to break it.

So the answer to that strategy is to minimize use of speed bumbs using those "spared" BP to hold your main defence river lines until the clear weather turns up. Adolf can't make any serious breach in bad weather so you should be able to do that provided you know what you are doing.

Following this all Eastern Poland buy you is 1 or 2 bad weather impulses so why bother? Same story with the Baltic states. Save all that US-entry, keep Persia neutral (if wallies can protect Egypt) and trade it for early LL of resources and BP - additional units is always better than indefensible terrain.

The price for not taking Eatern Poland is IMO a speed bump in Minsk and an overrun proof GAR on the 3 resources hex in the Ukraine to protect the river line in the surprise impulse. Don't bother about places like Chisinau and Odessa. They will just be obliterated by secondary units.

My defense is usuallt 90 % of my airforce and ARM/MECH in the south with a very strong INF defense line, a hedgehog defence in the north and ZOC defence in forests with mobile infantry/AT.

I have played WIF for ages also at Euro WIF con and this works. USSR doesn't have to rely on speed bumps to survive though that is also a viable strategy.

So my answer to peskpesk is use a lousy GAR and a good GAR as the only speed bumbs.


Very simplified the AI Opponent (AIO) makes trade-offs between time, materiel, and territory. To do so it uses a common metric that can be applied to all the elements of the game. Simplified it measured in terms of Combat Value(CV). Conceptually, the CV cost of losing a unit on the map measures the unit’s combat worth. The simplest case is setting the value for a 6-4 infantry unit. It’s strength is 6 and that gives it an CV of 6. For CC 5 Make USSR border claims and Eastern Poland we need to help the AIO estimate the value of Eastern Poland in CV. There for is any help with the question. “How many Russian 4-4 INF would you need to scarify to compensate for the forward starting positions of the Germans?” welcome.

Consider this problem to help you: You and your historically interested friend are going to play a special variant of the Barbarossa scenario in WIF. He is interested in knowing how much harder it would have been for Zhukov and his men to defend themselves against the German attack, if there had not been any agreement in Nazi packets between Germany and the USSR, which gave the USSR-eastern Poland. You are chosen to play the USSR and protest, isn’t going to be a fair WIF game. But your friend is the generous and offers you to pick X piece of extra Russian armies, with an average of 4-4 in value. Approximately how many do you have to take to make it an even game?


< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/13/2011 7:21:02 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 365
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 6:13:36 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Without taking into consideration US entry I would say 2 to 3 4-4 INF.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 366
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 6:18:41 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

What about trying to hold Odessa and the railway from Odessa just one impulse to be able to rail its factory? Is is worth it or the price of losing corps to hold it one impulse is too heavy?


That depends upon whether you can guarantee the survival of that factory - you need a lot to ensure that which IMO isn't worth it. You obviously need to hold Odessa, Chisinau, an overrun proof unit in hex 1831 and a unit in the swamp to ensure ZOC. Even then Adolf can put ZOC on the railway with a paradrop.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 367
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 8:22:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

If you know what you are doing as Russia you don't need Eastern Poland - provided your strategy isn't based on speed bumps (which it shouldn't)

The logic is this. Most Russian players use speed bumbs to create an illusion they slow down the Germans significantly who in any case only can advance 3 hexes an impulse with their slow infantry i.e. if they can move 2 hexes and advance a further hex due to combat its break even. Sure fast units can move further but sooner or later you need those slow buggers to secure your flanks. When the main fighting begins at the river lines you have thrown away what - 30+ BP? Use those 10 - 15 corps behind the lines to prevent breakthroughs instead - thats a much better investment.

So the cunning German player will naturally attack during bad weather and as early as late 40 if given the choice (and attack with all INF/MTN). The swamps are no obstacle during snow prolonging the russian line to defend and overwhelming odds alone will kill the speed bumbs. The rationale is use bad weather to reach the main defence line, make a few blitz attacks to get beachheads and then use offensive chits in the first clear impulse to break it.

So the answer to that strategy is to minimize use of speed bumbs using those "spared" BP to hold your main defence river lines until the clear weather turns up. Adolf can't make any serious breach in bad weather so you should be able to do that provided you know what you are doing.

Following this all Eastern Poland buy you is 1 or 2 bad weather impulses so why bother? Same story with the Baltic states. Save all that US-entry, keep Persia neutral (if wallies can protect Egypt) and trade it for early LL of resources and BP - additional units is always better than indefensible terrain.

The price for not taking Eatern Poland is IMO a speed bump in Minsk and an overrun proof GAR on the 3 resources hex in the Ukraine to protect the river line in the surprise impulse. Don't bother about places like Chisinau and Odessa. They will just be obliterated by secondary units.

My defense is usuallt 90 % of my airforce and ARM/MECH in the south with a very strong INF defense line, a hedgehog defence in the north and ZOC defence in forests with mobile infantry/AT.

I have played WIF for ages also at Euro WIF con and this works. USSR doesn't have to rely on speed bumps to survive though that is also a viable strategy.

So my answer to peskpesk is use a lousy GAR and a good GAR as the only speed bumbs.

Interesting. A few comments.

1 or 2 bad weather impulses? Doesn't that work out to 1 turn? If Germany DOWs in a bad weather turn (your premise) is its attack in the 3rd or 5th impulse of the turn going to have good weather? If the entire turn is spend cleaning up the speed bumps and advancing to the main line doesn't the USSR get 1 more turn of production before the main German attack begins?

10- 15 units? Can't you just hold the cities? I count 8 cities east of where you recommend holding the line. The USSR has 8 garrison units (see attached, taken from a game in progress - not mine) so we are talking about 16 BPs sacrificed as speed bumps. Let's round that up to 20 since you wanted to use some of those garrisons in Minsk and Krivoy Rog.

An extra turn of production is worth more than 20 BPs (it depends on other stuff but I think that is an accurate statement).

As I count it out, the speed bump strategy is close to your strategy in BPs. Of course your plan avoids the US Entry penalties. But the speed bump strategy limits the effectiveness of the German surprise impulse on the USSR's main defnesive line.

I make it a toss up, and just a matter of taste.

And as we all knnow, the weather is a much more decisive factor.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 368
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 9:04:35 PM   
finchen

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/1/2011
Status: offline 		There is one circumstance that hjaco touched concerning the USSR strategy, most players prefer to set up the main Russian defense line behind the Dnjepr Don Line, as it is easyer to defend.
Still if the German attacks with virtually all that he has including some italian airforce and an offensive chit, he will break that line,
and he can do this in the first clear weather turn. If there is no real defense at the border the german can attack as early as he likes, even in winter and march through to the rivers. So the German wins a whole clear weather turn that he would usually waste to get to that line.

If the Alied player can delay Barbarossssa (every impulse counts here) this can mean victory or defeat.
Setting up the bulk of the russian army at the border will mean her destruction during the first turn, but it prevents the German from an early attack, and as long as the German is preparing for Barb. one strategy is to hold that line. Then when you feel the German will be ready soon.

Fall back ~3-4 Hexes with the large amount of your army (keeping only a few points at the border) You will have a much shorter defense line than the rivers (especially in the south the river bend makes the don line very long) that you can hold potentially with standing two fields deep then when the german attacks slowly fallback. Trying to delay their advance, ideally you move 1 or 2 fields backward per impulse avoiding battle as far as possible. With this strategy you will most likely not be able to build up a defense at the river line (if you try you will stretch your line when you get there and the german will destroy you).

I do not say this strategy is better than the usual one. The advantages are you can stand deeper (at the river you have to hold a 1 hex line) and the german wont attack you in Feb/Mar also if the German concentrates on UK or Med. you force him to have substantial strength at the border to you so you lift some weight from your Allies


Oh and if the German attacks you with all that he has including some italian air, the only thing that can safe the USSR is if the UK/US player manages to distract the Germs, if Adolf can focus on the USSR he will head towards the Urals in the end of 42 :-)



< Message edited by finchen -- 1/13/2011 9:27:44 PM >

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 369
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 10:01:10 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		And a few comments back Shannon.

If Germany has to clear Eastern Poland and other non Russian homeland they won't enter Russia proper on first turn of Barbarossa to prevent railing of factories and lower production multiplier (depend on options though).

My point is this. Economic wise it may be roughly the same but with my strategy you have those extra corps for fighting at the main river lines resulting in better staying power and fewer losses.

The fewer units you have the more you will loose on defence.

But you are right of course. One should always choose ones prefered style of playing (unless you loose consistently). My input was to show others that there are more than one way to play Russia.


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 370
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 10:11:58 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Some comments finchen.

In my strategy russia should choose one frontage (usually in the south) to defend strongly using mobile defence on the others. First there are several hexes to be cleared west of the river line which mainly has to be done in clear but Germany will certainly breach the line on a few hexes in one of their first clear weather impulses. The big advantage is though Russia can concentrate their FTR to limit ground strikes and more importantly promptly counterattack with their ARM/MECH possibly even with an offensive chit if Germany spend one. Finally the point is not to hold that line but to cut down on losses while railing out factories.

You came with an additional strategy and the more tricks in the bag the better

The big disadvantage with your strategy is that your units will be consistently ground struck if you only retreat a hex or two each impulse and those flipped guys will be dead speed bumbs and you will have great difficulty using your HQ's for reorganisation purposes until late in the impulse. One more point - in order to fall back with your entire army from Eastern Poland you have to declare war on Italy for a high price on US entry or suffer one surprise impulse of ground strikes.

But it all comes down to matter of taste of course.

< Message edited by hjaco -- 1/13/2011 10:24:05 PM >

(in reply to finchen)
Post #: 371
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/13/2011 10:47:09 PM   
finchen

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/1/2011
Status: offline 		you are right with the ground strikes I meant moving back ideally 1 or two hexes but it largely depends on where the german TAC s are, but with this strategy you wont stay out of range thats true the idea is to stand 2 hexes deep with 1 unit per hex (you shouldnt put 2 easily overrun units in a row of course)

so the Germ cannot strike more than 1 Unit with a TAC.
If you have to hold a fixed line like the rivers you need to stack, which is nice for Ground Strikes.

When setting up at the rivers I tend to hold Dnjepopetrovsk with strong Units the reason is If the Germans take it they can cross the river to the south of it attacking from 3 hexes.
In the North when he breaks through to Smolensk he has 4 Hexes to attack the field SW of it then you cant hold the rivers any more, the USSR player needs to Hold those fields when he wants to hold the river.

When doing the No eastern poland Gamble the biggest tradeoff here is the USSR player doesnt have the Baltics so in the north the Riverline is already broken before the Germs attack and you need to setup at the Swamp line Leningrad Novgorod tothe field NE of Vitebsk what brings the German 1 Field closer to Smolensk.

:-)

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 372
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/14/2011 4:10:41 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		another play I have seen is .... one of the other allies DOW on the Baltic states.... then if Germany is the aligning major power or moves any unit into one of those countries.

Russia can break the pact.

if the Germany don´t bite ... then they can simply move units into does countries and take the capitals and conquer the Baltic states ..  

if Russia takes the Baltic states it is a -4  on us entry.

if CW Dow the Baltic states it is a -5 on us entry.

so I never demand the Baltic states I wait. and in late 1940 I have CW Dow them ....


_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to finchen)
Post #: 373
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/14/2011 4:15:01 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		then in a later impulse with good weather. (snow)

Russia breaks the pact and DOW.

bomb the German HQ and runs for the river line.


_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 374
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/14/2011 9:06:24 AM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		My preferred defence is a static defence in the south, Hero cities in he far north and your mobile defence in the center with 4 mp infantry. The FTR goes to the south to contest ground strikes and the mobile ZOC defence stays in cover in forests.

So actually I already have implemented your strategy as part of mine

(in reply to finchen)
Post #: 375
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/14/2011 4:39:59 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		If you would could you please clarify some things for me.


quote:

9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2), in order of declaration.

The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it. Whoever takes control of the minor sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4).


quote:

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS

26. USSR controls East Poland (Ge/It) -7
27. USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Baltic States) (Ge/It) –4

20. Axis declares war on (Ge, It, or Ja) - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country 12
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland 8
Other minor or Vichy France 3

29. USSR declares war on Germany or Italy or both (Ge/It) -35

31. USSR declares war on (Ge/It) - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country -25
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland - 18
Other minor or Vichy France -9

32. Major Power declares war on neutral minor (Ge/It) - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse.
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country -17
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland -12
Other minor or Vichy France -5



quote:

19.5.2 Baltic States
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) during any Allied land movement step after it has exercised its rights to eastern Poland. You can only exercise your rights over those states that are neutral.

You exercise those rights by moving a land unit into any hex of the Baltic States.

Once you exercise those rights, the Baltic States are considered immediately conquered by the Soviet Union (without the Baltic States being aligned or its units set up).

19.5.3 Breaking the Nazi-Soviet pact
If a German controlled unit enters any hex in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Turkey or declares war on any of these countries, then the Soviet player can break the Nazi-Soviet pact during any Allied declaration of war step. Setting up the Baltic States’ convs is not considered entering a hex in these countries.

If a Soviet controlled unit enters any hex in Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Norway, Sweden or Yugoslavia, then the German player can break the Nazi-Soviet pact during any Axis declaration of war step.

Once broken, there is no longer a neutrality pact (see 9.5), nor a trade agreement (see 5.1), between Germany and the USSR.




USSR controls East Poland -7
USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania)) -4

0 to 2 Action entry markers removed (1 entry marker average)


quote:

Original: michaelbaldur

Another play I have seen is one of the other Allies DOW on the Baltic States...

(1) Then if Germany is the aligning major power or moves any unit into one of those countries Russia can break the pact.

If the Germany don’t bite...

(2) Then they can simply move units into those countries and take the capitals and conquer the Baltic states…

If Russia takes the Baltic states it is a -4 on us entry.

(3) If CW DOW the Baltic states it is a -5 on us entry.

So I never demand the Baltic States I wait.

In late 1940 I have CW Dow them....

(4) Then in a later impulse with good weather (snow) Russia breaks the pact and DOW.

Bombs the German HQ and runs for the river line.



(1) Germany cannot align any of the Baltic States but Germany can control them.

Germany would have to move a unit into one of the Baltic States for the USSR to be able to break the Nazi-Soviet pact. Just controlling them is not sufficient.


(2) How if Germany controls them?


(3) The Allies other than the USSR have to DOW the minor countries of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania separately.

Allies DOW:
Estonia -5
Latvia -5
Lithuania -5

0 to 3 Action entry markers removed (2 entry markers average)

(4) USSR declares war on Germany or Italy or both (Ge/It) –35 (4 entry markers average)


quote:

Effect of neutrality pacts
After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).



If Germany controls Estonia you will have to evacuate Leningrad.


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/14/2011 4:53:22 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 376
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/14/2011 5:21:21 PM   
Ullern


Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Without taking into consideration US entry I would say 2 to 3 4-4 INF.


I've read all the posts so far. And I'd just say I agree that there are many ways to play the USSR defence. I'd say that the Eastern Poland is likely worth 30 BP or 10 X 4-4 INF if you want.

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 377
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/15/2011 10:04:38 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I have continued to working on USSR border claims.

And now have been concentrating on the second part of CC 5 Make USSR border claims and whether to occupy the Baltic states, se below. In a normal WIF game the USSR usually claims Baltic states some time before 1941, when to US entry markers value goes up.
And as always, any tips of what I have missed are welcome. I plan to post a simplified version of the script later.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims AI

Baltic states

CV: 10

Advantages:
- This gives the USSR an increased buffer zone before a possible Barbarossa attack.
- Gives the USSR little more pressure against Finland and the ground could be important ground for airbases, marines, artillery during a denied claim of Border lands and the following war.

Disadvantages:
- US Entry hit and the chit values might be high.

The base rule whether to occupy Baltic States is decided by:
* The action has not been taken.
* The pre conditions are meet: Ester Poland has been occupied by the USSR, The USSR land movement step)
* Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
* The USSR can reserve one land move for Baltic States.
* There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Baltic States.

* And one of the below is true:
A) German Barbarossa campaign is imminent.
B) When the US has declare war on both Germany and Japan.

* Or consider it when one of the below is true:
C) When Germany is planning/building for an attack on the USSR and average US entry chit mix values in the Ge/It pool is low.
D) When Germany is planning/building for an attack on the USSR and each time the Game reaches 1940/41/42 Nov/Dec turn
E) When the USSR is at war with Finland or war with Finland is imminent.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/15/2011 5:25:27 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Ullern)
Post #: 378
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/15/2011 1:19:47 PM   
Ullern


Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

* Or conceder it when one of the below is true:
C) When Germany is planning/building for an attack on the USSR and average US entry chit mix values in the Ge/It pool is low.
D) When Germany is planning/building for an attack on the USSR and each time the Game reaches 1940/41/42 Nov/Dec turn
E) When the USSR is at war with Finland or war with Finland is imminent.



A miss-spelled word got me confused. I first read it like "Or concede it when ..." but then figured you meant "Or consider it ..."

I guess you meant consider it, and I think the points are fine, except I don't get why you want bullet D), you already got that covered by bullet A). What is unique about Nov/dec turns? In Jan/Feb the garrison ratio values decreases, but if you're thinking garrison ratio I think USSR is better off without the Border states than with them.

< Message edited by ullern -- 1/15/2011 1:20:19 PM >

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 379
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/16/2011 10:38:32 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		100 % accurate detecting German intentions long time in advance are hard. So the AIO is the need of a fallback if the fail, case A. Case C and D are for a successes full prediction of the German plans and dealing with the value of the US Entry pool Ge/It. Case C, try to do the choice when the values are low, but even if they are high, case D, consider to do the action anyway in each Nov/Dec turn.

So far I’m a bit surprised that no one has protested and argued that Stuff the border strategy - to prevent the Axis from declaring war – can benefit greatly from Easter Poland and Baltic States being left untouched by the USSR, although it’s a risky choice.


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Ullern)
Post #: 380
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/19/2011 9:20:37 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Here is my next part on my work with USSR border claims for the AIO.

I have now been concentrating on the third part of CC 5 Make USSR border claims and whether to claim the Finnish border lands, se below. In a normal WIF game the USSR seldom makes the claim, but if the do is probably the best time to do it when Germany is occupied in the Belgium/France, usually the first clear impulse in Mar/Apr or May/June 1940.
And as always, any tips of what I have missed are welcome. I plan to post a simplified version of the script later.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims AI

Finland

CV:4

Advantages:
-Reduces the resources sent to Germany by 1.
-Might capture a resource in northern Finland if the claim is denied.
-Makes possible a full scale war and conquest of Finland.
-Gives the USSR a slightly increased buffer zone before a possible Barbarossa attack.
-Fewer Finnish units can threaten Leningrad, until the recapture all Finnish border lands hexes.

Disadvantages:
-US Entry hit and the chit values might be high.
-Finland might be very difficult to conquer.
-Losing the advantages that Finland can only align with Germany after
Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany).
-Germany might be able to enforce a peace between Finland and the USSR (no
hex of Finland, outside the Finnish border lands, is Soviet controlled; and Germany and the USSR are not at war.)

Whether to claim the Finnish border lands is decided by:
* The action has not been taken.
* The pre conditions are meet: Any allied declaration of war step (after the first) and Finland is neutral
* There are at least two US entry chits in the Ge/It pool and two chits can be reserved for Finland
* Active USSR strategy is one of:
--- A Resource War Try to cut resource to Ge by border lands & Bessarabia
--- B Finland
-----B1 Finnish Bluff(Rattle the saber), build up but hope to avoid a war
-----B2 Conquer Finland, build and hope for war, try to conquer Finland
* Preparations for the strategy is done: Unit buildup, invasion prep etc

* Whether to demand Finnish border lands decision is modified by:
- German support options to Finland is: none, small, medium or large.
- Is the USSR a neutral Major Power and at war with any minor power (Russian activity limits risk)?
- Is the weather bad?
- The estimated number of impulses left in the turn.
- Is Germany at war with Norway or Sweden?
- Has Germany conquered Norway or Sweden?
- First clear weather impulse (N Temperate) of Mar/Apr or May/June 1940.
- Has Axis captured Paris?







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/21/2011 5:47:28 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 381
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/20/2011 1:01:50 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		the 'buffer' advantage is increased protection for the rail line to Murmansk, hopefully allowing a factory or two to reach the city. This should be weighted heavily I think, it is for me now when I play the USSR. War with Finland is OK if US Entry can afford it. You don't need to actually conquer Finland and can automatically force them back away from your border with ease, and that protects the rail line even better than Finland allowing the claims does. A strategy in war with Finland is to threaten Helsinki strongly while taking the north completely for a protected resource.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 382
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/21/2011 5:45:31 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		As the USSR when do you usually attack Finland? Which Turn/impulse? And how?

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/21/2011 5:46:51 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 383
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/21/2011 8:08:50 PM   
coregames


Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

As the USSR when do you usually attack Finland? Which Turn/impulse? And how?


This has much to do with what has happened politically and/or militarily in the Balkans early in the game, as well as indications of the German plans regarding a possible time frame for attacking Russia. That said, going into the winter (probably early in SO)is a good time for such an operation, as long as coastal supply can be maintained. Finnish troops share the snow advantages, but the Germans are far less likely to take advantage of the diverted Russian forces by declaring war.

If you do go for it, a northern end-around threat can make their defense of Helsinki very difficult, and increase the probability they will simply let you have the borderlands. If they do fight, make sure you ground strike the hell out of anything they leave in the open during the surprise impulse. Just my two cents - probably obvious stuff.

_____________________________

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(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 384
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/21/2011 8:19:23 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		I used to setup to claim the Finnish border hexes but have delayed that until summer 40 provided Adolf doesn't seem to go to Russia in 41'

A cunning opponent recently let me fight the Fins from the beginning of the game due to US entry considerations but also to sail out the Finnish Ski Division which can get to Bruxelles in a surprise snow impulse as the Ski Division ignores Belgian ZOC. Bruxelles was then reinforced by the German MTN which was transported by air. Luckily for the Allied there wasn't snow in temperate until J/F so the damage was somewhat contained.

With two snow or Blizzard impulses in N/D that little bugger can first take out Rotterdam then Bruxelles - cudo for creative thinking

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 385
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2011 10:06:07 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		lately I like to sucker the Axis into denying the claims by asking for the Borderlands at the wrong time of year (winter) and without enough obvious force set-up to smash into Helsinki. But I'm not actually interested in Helsinki, I want Petsamo and no Finnish ski divisions within striking distance of the rail to Murmansk. Then Field Marshall Alexander can show up and permanently protect this wonderful new warm-water part of the Russian empire while Zhukov throws Shermans, Jeeps, and Ford trucks at the Panzers until he reaches Berlin.

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 386
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/23/2011 12:04:44 AM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Right but the Brits can't enter a russian controlled hex until Russia is at war with Germany so USSR has to hold it alone for a while.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 387
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/23/2011 2:12:08 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Here is my last text part on my work with USSR border claims for the AIO and CC 5.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims and whether to claim the Bessarabia, se below. In a normal WIF game the USSR almost always makes the claim and probably the best time to do it when Germany is occupied in Poland or with Belgium/France; usually the second/third allied impulse of Sep/Oct 1939, first clear impulse in Mar/Apr or May/June 1940.
And as always, any tips of what I have missed are welcome. I plan to post a simplified version of the script later.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims AI

Bessarabia

CV: 16

Advantages:
Seizing more land to put between Germany and the Ukraine is the primary
reason for claiming Bessarabia.(Saving a factory and gaining supply sources)
Reduces the resources sent to Germany by 1.
Might make a full scale war possible and conquest of Rumania.
Might make it possible to blast the Rumania oil with strategic bombing

Disadvantage:
- Rumania might be difficult to conquer if German peacekeepers arrive in time.
- Might make it possible for Italy to align Yugoslavia prior to the attack on Russia.
- Germany might be able to enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR (no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and Germany and the USSR are not at war).
- US Entry hit and the chit values might be high.
Losing the advantages that:
- Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared war either on
Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), or
if Germany controls Belgrade.
Might lose the advantages that:
- Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls Belgrade or is at war with Greece.
- Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

Whether to claim the Bessarabia is decided by:
* The action has not been taken.
* The pre conditions are meet: During any Allied declaration of war step (after the first), Rumania is neutral.
* There are at least two US entry chits in the Ge/It pool and two chits can be reserved for Rumania.
* Active USSR strategy is one of:
---- A Resource War //Try to cut resource to Ge by border lands & Bessarabia
---- B Rumania
----- B1 Rumania Bluff Rattle the saber, build up but hope to avoid a war
----- B2 Conquer Rumania build and hope for war, try to conquer Rumania
----- B3 Oil War Try to blast Ge oil
And Preparations for the strategy is done Build up of units, weather, turn, strategic bombers ready etc.

* Whether to demand Bessarabia decision is modified by:
- Is a German declaration of war on Yugoslavia is imminent?
- German support options to Rumania is: none, small, medium or large.
- Is a German Barbarossa campaign is imminent?
- Whether likely German strategy is a Russia First gambit (possible attack by Germany in 1939 or early 1940)
- Does the USSR strategy include a Bulgaria gambit?
- Is USSR a neutral Major Power and at war with any minor power (Russian activity limits risk)?
- Has Eastern Poland been claimed?
- Is the weather bad?
- The estimated number of impulses left in the turn
- It’s Sep/Oct 1939 or first clear weather impulse (N Temperate) of Mar/Apr or May/June 1940
- Has Axis captured Paris?
- Has the US declared war on one of/both Germany and Japan?






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 388
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/23/2011 5:17:25 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
.....usually the second/third allied impulse of Sep/Oct 1939, first clear impulse in Mar/Apr or May/June 1940......


Snow impulses works fine for claiming Besserabia as mobility is the key factor against the few Romanians. Bad weather should be defined as rain, storm or Blizzard.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 389
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/24/2011 12:23:24 AM   
Ullern


Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:


* Whether to demand Bessarabia decision is modified by:

I'd add bullets:
Whether or not Oil (Afa option 48) is used.
Whether or not Factory destruction & construction (option 30) is used.

And like some other mentioned:
Claiming Finnish borderlands should be modified by yes/no to the optional rule for Ski divs.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 390
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