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North Atlantic '86 vs Med. Game

 
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North Atlantic '86 vs Med. Game - 9/7/2002 8:54:21 AM   
BowdenRussell

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/9/2000
From: Pacific Palisades, California, USA
Status: offline 		I don't know about you guys, but I firmly believe that Matrix should put off doing the Med until after they do a remake of North Atlantic '86.

NA '86 was by far the most exciting of Grigsby's game back in the '80's. It was far superior to "Bomb Alley", Grigsby's Med version of Guadalcanal. Therefore it is only logical that a modern version of NA'86 would be better than the Modern version of Bomb Alley.

Post here if you agree.

Hiroo
Post #: 1
- 9/7/2002 8:58:36 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Me want Med. NA '86 BORING!

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 2
- 9/7/2002 9:11:14 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!

MED....MED,,,,,MED.,,,,

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 3
- 9/7/2002 9:40:17 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		North Atlantic 86 - Great Game. I'm for it.

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 4
- 9/7/2002 10:25:04 AM   
Deban

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/7/2002
Status: offline 		Just make sure you can play the Russians against
the Allied AI. Thats the only hang up I had with
86.
Come to think of it you couldnt play as the brits
in Med either....

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 5
- 9/7/2002 11:47:21 AM   
bilbow


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline 		So what's wrong with both? Then all we get to argue about is which first?

Bill:)

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 6
- 9/7/2002 12:03:31 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		My problems: NA86 never happened. Med did. Bomb Alley is dead. New design will not resemble it except for subject. Med WWII is a rich subject. NA86 is not interesting.

Bottom line: How many copies of revised NA86 you gonna sell? 20? Sorry - it's dead. Interest in Med WWII? Look at the thread (come on, you guys, back me up on this if you really want it - remember what I said in an earlier post about how barbarians are going to come stomping in here trying to kill the idea).

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 7
- 9/7/2002 3:16:02 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi

Its not a bad idea to do such a remake but would enough people buy such a game? We all know WW2 sells well. Lets play it safe with a Med game which David said is planned but nothing has been decided.

Dan

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Post #: 8
MED - 9/7/2002 4:39:21 PM   
Matto


Posts: 1138
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Czech Republic
Status: offline 		I sound for MED too ... it must be not so hard use UV engine and made new map and units for MED ... it will be similar game as UV, but very interesting I thing. And with longer period (summer 1940 - 1943).
Matto

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 9
- 9/7/2002 7:51:27 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pasternakski
[B]
Bottom line: How many copies of revised NA86 you gonna sell? 20? Sorry - it's dead. Interest in Med WWII? Look at the thread (come on, you guys, back me up on this if you really want it - remember what I said in an earlier post about how barbarians are going to come stomping in here trying to kill the idea). [/B][/QUOTE]

For all that I know - Med game is already half-planned, after WITP, while no NA86 is being planned at all, so pasternakski if all goes well, we'll see Med before NA anyway, no need to be so aggressive ;)

Big con for Med game as I see it (and this goes in part for UV too) is that it was at best a secondary, if not tertiary, theatre for all the parties involved (except Italians), and that all the operations in Med were planned with Big Picture (ie, whole of Europe) in mind. Germans put all their land and air resources into defeating Russia, and what little UBoats they diverted into Med, is generally accepted to be their mistake anyway (most of the historians argue that those Med subs should be put to better use in Atlantic). As for surface units - they of course had none worth mentioning.

How is this way of strategic thinking going to be simulated in Med game, remains to be seen. What geographic areas should be on the map anyway? Up to Bay of Biscay? Black Sea? Morocco Coast? Personally I think Med game can be made REAL interesting only in hypothetic scenarios (ie. no Barbarossa, Gibraltar taken by Germans etc)

OTOH, NA86 was kinda strategically very important theatre,and the fact that it didn't happen in real life is no deterrent at all for us wargamers in trying to make it happen in virtual life :)

Now that I see this post, maybe you were right Pasternakski, nitpicking has begun :)

O.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 10
- 9/7/2002 10:32:00 PM   
Mark W Carver

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/26/2002
From: South-central PA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]

How is this way of strategic thinking going to be simulated in Med game, remains to be seen. What geographic areas should be on the map anyway? Up to Bay of Biscay? Black Sea? Morocco Coast? Personally I think Med game can be made REAL interesting only in hypothetic scenarios (ie. no Barbarossa, Gibraltar taken by Germans etc)
[/B][/QUOTE]

Include ALL of the Mediterranean. Including the entire North African coast, from Morocco to Palestine. Also, include Spain and Gibraltar, Southern France as well as Sardinia. All of Italy including Sicily and while were at it, how about Greece and Crete.

Do a complete re-write of the ground combat rules that would allow for some interesting back and forth fighting including the initial thrust (or lack thereof) by the Italians which forced Hitler to come to the aid of Mussolini. Then, there could be Operation Torch, which brings US ground forces in the war. Operation Husky with the invasion of Sicily followed up by the invasion of Italy itself. Will Operation Avalanche, the US 5th Army under General Mark Clark invade Salerno? Can I invade Sardinia? Why not, I've always wanted to do that.

You never know, if it's done right, and they get the re-written ground rules down, oh well, maybe, just maybe. Operation Barbarossa anyone?

Yes, I think a Mediterranean game would great and it could be the steeping stone that could lead to a big and better campaign that was fought in Eastern Europe.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 11
- 9/7/2002 10:44:29 PM   
Point Luck

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: East Coast-US
Status: offline 		MED and most important INCLUDE editor!

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 12
- 9/7/2002 11:15:38 PM   
Finnegan

 

Posts: 316
Joined: 9/19/2001
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		North Sea. 1914-1918.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 13
- 9/8/2002 12:07:14 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]

For all that I know - Med game is already half-planned, after WITP, while no NA86 is being planned at all, so pasternakski if all goes well, we'll see Med before NA anyway, no need to be so aggressive ;)

...

OTOH, NA86 was kinda strategically very important theatre,and the fact that it didn't happen in real life is no deterrent at all for us wargamers in trying to make it happen in virtual life :)

Now that I see this post, maybe you were right Pasternakski, nitpicking has begun :)

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

Go ahead and pick them nits. I was just using the technique that worked back when I was three years old in my dysfunctional family - throwing a tantrum to be sure I get my way.

NA86 is, of course, a good subject for a game (and, as others have suggested, a thorough remake of WIR would be excellent, as well). I would buy and play it, but I don't think sales would be enough to make it economically viable. I want to keep this Matrix/2by3 bunch around for awhile. I think an extension of the UV engine to the WWII Mediterranean theater has broad appeal among computer gamers and would benefit from being based on an already-existing engine.

What I don't want is Matrix/2by3 resources wasted on side trips and risky experiments while there's still so much to be done right out on Broadway.

Wah! Wah! Wah! I want THAT toy, Mommy! Wah! Wah! Wah!

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 14
- 9/8/2002 2:14:59 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		My vote:

MED MED MED MED MED


"Bomb Alley" is a unique game in my memory. Unique because its a game i never played!!!! yet i remember it fondly as at about the time it was available (but soon to be discontinued), i was but a wide eyed kid with little to no income who could only stare hungrilly at the box art of this game as shown by the little SSI catalog phamplet one gets inside another SSI game one has. Stare at it and only be able to imagine what playing it would be like. (especially as at the time, i had yet to experience a "campaign" type wargame on such a scale where one could draw on a pool of assets to form TF's and in effect, "create your own battles". Games like 'Carrier Force' and 'Tigers in the Snow' only covered tactical battles that had already happened with set units and forces....only allowing one to refight the same battle in the hopes of changing the historical outcome and proving what an impressive armchair general (or Admiral) one was ;)

Bomb Alley stuck out for me also because it covered a situation that i had never wargamed and was at the time not as familiar with, as opposed to the subject matter of "Carrier Force" or "Guadalcanal Campaign"

Then again maybe it was just the cover art too. :)

So bring on Bomb Alley Mark II.......after WitP of course :)

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 15
MED! Bomb Alley II! - 9/8/2002 2:28:15 AM   
Forrest37

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		The only reason I still own an Apple II is to play my ancient copy of Bomb Alley....(now that I can play my Guadalcanal game (UV) on the laptop).......I'll pre-order both WITP and a Med-Bomb Alley II if that will help bring it up to date with the current UV engine....terrific game....thanks Matrix......Bill.

_____________________________

While not disgruntled he was far from gruntled....

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 16
Re: MED! Bomb Alley II! - 9/8/2002 2:53:53 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Forrest37
[B]The only reason I still own an Apple II is to play my ancient copy of Bomb Alley....(now that I can play my Guadalcanal game (UV) on the laptop).......I'll pre-order both WITP and a Med-Bomb Alley II if that will help bring it up to date with the current UV engine....terrific game....thanks Matrix......Bill. [/B][/QUOTE]

really?

thats amazing. Until recently i had lugged my vintage Atari-800 system from location to location along with several disk boxes worth of floppies. The most amazing thing was that it was not until this year, 2002 that at long last, the first of my 5.25 floppies began to fail with disk read errors, for some of the earliest thats a shelf life over 20 years!!!!!

I cant even get one of my 3.5inch's to last a year much less that long, and 5.25's were so much flimsier. They knew how to make em then is all i can say.

Sadly, i had to finally get rid of my antique, but the games live on curtasy of my Atari and Apple IIe PC emulators. Actually i have Bomb Alley now but thanks to Matrix i havnt had a chance to play it!!!!!! First Steel Panthers, World at War and now UV.....they dominate the all-too rare times i have to sit down for a multi-hour gaming session.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 17
One for NA 86 - 9/8/2002 3:35:52 AM   
SwampYankee68


Posts: 1186
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Connecticut, U.S.
Status: offline 		"Red Storm Rising" and "Red Phoenix" didn't happen, and they are **** good books. I desperately want a turn- based Modern Naval and Air Combat game to play!!!!

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 18
- 9/8/2002 3:37:34 AM   
msaario

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Back in E U R O P A
Status: offline 		Atari XL series - THE SEXIEST PC EVER MADE!

My (second) Apple IIe is sadly mothballed, the wife already dislikes me having two-three PCs and a Mac sitting in my room. I don't really need it anymore as I can play Crusade in Europe and Decision in the Desert in my Nokia Communicator (through the C64 emulator). I wonder if the original WiR was available for C64? Haven't seen it anywhere (I have to play the awful SSG's Russia game).

North Atlantic 86 remake = the next version of Harpoon? Let's do Med first!

--Mikko

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 19
- 9/8/2002 4:37:03 AM   
XPav

 

Posts: 550
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Northern California
Status: offline 		If you want a WW3 wargame, go play Harpoon.

[URL=http://www.n0mta.com/~hc2002/]Harpoon Classic 2002[/URL] is free for the GIUK battleset, and $10 for the rest.

A [URL=http://www.navalwarfare.net]Harpoon 3[/URL] trial/demo can be downloaded (although they appear to so paranoid about piracy that they have done some really bizarre things).

[URL=http://www.harpoon4.com]Harpoon 4[/URL] will supposedly be released in the fall.

Besides, I don't think the UV engine could handle modern warfare well. Modern conflict is extremely short and very brutal. UV's smallest timeslice is a day.

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Post #: 20
- 9/8/2002 4:51:47 AM   
SwampYankee68


Posts: 1186
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Connecticut, U.S.
Status: offline 		What if I DON'T WANT TO play Harpoon? It's real time, and my gaming time is such that turn based games are better for me. Additionally, I prefer to play againsty other humans. And, the existing engine from UV can be modified. Also, there are other options, such as the engine being used for Fleet Europa, or a new one.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 21
- 9/8/2002 11:57:58 AM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline 		How about MED '86? Everyone will be happy then (not).:p

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drink more beer.

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Post #: 22
- 9/8/2002 12:08:34 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Mmmmmmmmmmm Harpoon 4 *Drool*:cool:

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Post #: 23
- 9/8/2002 12:11:23 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		I'd like see a modern game using the UV/WiTP engine, maybe including North Alantic 86, Falklands, and the Med. My understanding is 2B3 games only makes WWII era games.

There hasn't been a good modern naval type game sense the orginal Harpoon, and I don't think we'll every see Harpoon IV. The only thing Harpoon II proved was you can't make a game using AutoCAD.;)

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 24
- 9/8/2002 12:24:27 PM   
svhrg

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline 		I think it would be a lot easier to use the UV engine on a MED game than adapting it to modern warfare. My vote falls strongly on the MED camp.

R

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 25
- 9/8/2002 4:11:05 PM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Sorry guys. well off topic so moved to General Forum..

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Email: rossm@csogroup.org

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 26
- 9/8/2002 6:05:35 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		I vote med first. How cool will it be to have stukas attacking convoys?:D

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Post #: 27
- 9/8/2002 6:43:19 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pad152
[B]
There hasn't been a good modern naval type game sense the orginal Harpoon, and I don't think we'll every see Harpoon IV. The only thing Harpoon II proved was you can't make a game using AutoCAD.;) [/B][/QUOTE]

:D Haha... exactly. Call me shallow, but I can't be bothered to play the game that looks THAT ugly.

O.

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 28
Re: One for NA 86 - 9/9/2002 10:35:11 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swamp_Yankee
[B]"Red Storm Rising" and "Red Phoenix" didn't happen, and they are **** good books. I desperately want a turn- based Modern Naval and Air Combat game to play!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you tried Avalon Hill's Fifth Fleet computer game? While it is somewhat dated now, it's actually not half bad ...

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 29
- 9/9/2002 10:36:51 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I would love to see a modern game based on NA '86 or any other appropriate scenario, much more so than any WW II game, but I understand the reality of the situation is that it probably wouldn't sell enough to be feasible ...

(in reply to BowdenRussell)
Post #: 30
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