Rail Moving Routed Units

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> Rail Moving Routed Units

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Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/22/2011 11:50:30 PM

SgtKachalin

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Joined: 8/15/2006
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According to 14.2 "Strategic movement can be conducted by non-routed, non-frozen units." Yet, as shown, the routed 143rd RD can be moved by rail. WAD or glitch?

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 12:53:37 AM

Helpless

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Don't know if there was any intentions to have such restrictions not only in manual but in the code as well, but the statement in manual sounds quite logical, so let's call it a bug.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to SgtKachalin)

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 1:59:19 AM

JAMiAM

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Joined: 2/8/2004
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I'm not arguing against the 'logic' of the rule, as I can see it going both ways. However, if you classify this as a bug, and 'fix' it, you are going to have the Russian players up in arms, since it will have a MAJOR effect on game balance, when the Russians are suddenly unable to extricate their dozens of routed units in the first few turns of the game.

Consider carefully, before you decide to fix it.

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 2:02:05 AM

2ndACR

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Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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I say fix it. That rule cuts both ways once the late war starts.

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 2:13:37 AM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I say fix it. That rule cuts both ways once the late war starts.

My arguments against fixing it are as such:

Routed Russian units inevitably get displaced to the Pripyet Marshes in the first turn, since there are all those town hexes to teleport into. Thus, they flee to the most inaccessible, and difficult to move through, territory imaginable. These routed units are generally not much more than empty shells.

If prohibiting the rail transporting empty shells with little morale, supply, and equipment is 'logical' then why is it logical to be able to rail the Soviet depleted cadres that appear by the dozens all around the countryside? They are likewise lacking in training, morale, and enough equipment to prevent displacement.

That being said, if it were changed to match the manual, then there would be a lot fewer people complaining about the Russians being overpowered in the 41-45 campaign. I myself don't believe that the Russians are overpowered, but there seems to be a slight majority, that do believe it.

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 4:31:29 AM

Joel Billings

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Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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It's a bug and we should fix it.

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 6:28:12 AM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

My arguments against fixing it are as such:

Routed Russian units inevitably get displaced to the Pripyet Marshes in the first turn, since there are all those town hexes to teleport into. Thus, they flee to the most inaccessible, and difficult to move through, territory imaginable. These routed units are generally not much more than empty shells.

If prohibiting the rail transporting empty shells with little morale, supply, and equipment is 'logical' then why is it logical to be able to rail the Soviet depleted cadres that appear by the dozens all around the countryside? They are likewise lacking in training, morale, and enough equipment to prevent displacement.

I feel like engaging in argument. I'm not sure which position I feel is right for the game - I don't know the game well enough.

But to critique your rationale, in which I think you make good defense, let me offer this.

(ASSUMING: depleted cadres are 'resurrected' or new units that appear in the rear areas for Soviets - if I'm wrong on that then don't read anything further!)

The new or resurrected cadres had to have been planned for logistically to some extent, and are in as good an order for operational movement as a unit can be (when you don't know exactly how far the Germans have advanced in the last 3 days...). Rail assets can logically be planned for.

By contrast, a routed unit had its ass handed to it, and the 'magic teleport' it received when routing cannot be logically planned for in advance by rail assets, given the scope and necessary abstractions of a game of this kind.

(in reply to JAMiAM)

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 6:39:01 AM

JAMiAM

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Oh...I can go either way on the issue. I was just raising some points, since obviously the game has been this way since before release, apparently none of the playtesters ever questioned it, and the game's balance has been factored based, in part, on the ability to rail/sail the innumerable routed units from the start.

However, I am quite happy to side with the designer's intent, and consider Joel's and Pavel's answers to be definitive.

(in reply to heliodorus04)

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RE: Rail Moving Routed Units - 1/23/2011 3:36:59 PM

mmarquo

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Joined: 9/26/2000
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And it explains in part why so many units are able to escape almost closed pockets so easily; btw - routed units can also be shipped out of ports. I am thinking it might not be too unrealistic - I can see hordes of panicked, routed troops cramming themselves desperately into cattle cars and ships to escape; like the attempted evacuation from Tallinin. Also, a week is a long time; a unit could rout on one day, but get reoraginzed enough to climb into waiting cattle cars 4 or 5 days later.

Marquo

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 9