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- 9/8/2002 3:43:08 AM

campekenobi

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]I paid $59.99 for SP1 over 5 years ago. The original PACWAR cost me $79.99 ten years ago.
[/B][/QUOTE]

WHERE the HECK were you buying from??? I got SP1 for like 20 bucks, and then I got II and II in bargain bins for like $9.99!!! Is it because I live in the US or something????

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 31

- 9/8/2002 5:06:08 AM

Frank W.

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline

i got SP1 for 60 DEUTSCH MARK (not that ****in EURO) together with PG2 and 8 other games. it was a compilation.

SP2 cost me about 70 DM and SP3 80 DM. i think the half would be roughly the $$$$ price.

i think you should take into consideration "special prices" for older games or games in compilation which are much cheaper....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by campekenobi
[B]

WHERE the HECK were you buying from??? I got SP1 for like 20 bucks, and then I got II and II in bargain bins for like $9.99!!! Is it because I live in the US or something???? [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 32

- 9/8/2002 10:58:23 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

"The West was D-Day onwards", ok guys get him....

Lets have a pile on in support of all those blokes that fought up the boot, not to mention the damned desert.

If anyone wants obscure though, how about Marita-Merkur?

D-Day is only popular due to americanocentric history, and hey there were yanks in Italy too eh. Forget D-Day, why not something more different entirely, like Southern France.

It's a myth though, that the Russian front mob is small. Some of the best wargames in history are great because they picked the right theater.

D-Day makes a nice subject on TV, but it's not nearly as interesting as numerous other parts of the war from a wargame perspective.
And to often its the same old tired American contribution, with little of no mention of the British or Canadians.

As for modern...yeah modern has a vocal minority. But they are truely a minority.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 33

- 9/9/2002 2:10:59 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

PacWar: 53.99 from CompUSA on 12/21/92. I know I paid 70-80 for one of the War in Russia titles, but the one I have doesn't have the receipt for some reason. In addition there was another 70-80 game I'd given to Goodwill a few weeks back.

SP1: 39.99 from CompUSA on 11/03/95.

Les the Sarge 9-1: I didn't mention Italy because we were talking West and East, right? Italy would be south. Besides, how many wargames do you know that model Italy, Allied invasion onwards? Sure if I was playing the Western Front, I'd hope the Southern Front would be included, since both feature the Western Allies, but it is an entirely different front. Somehow, many including myself have little regard for that front, given how it was so stalemated and over such difficult terrain. If you asked me to name all the country's Germany conquered, by the same token I'd forget Greece (and probably Luxembourg and probably even Belgium), and though it was tough terrain, it was forgettable for the opposite reason, that it was over with quite quickly and wasn't directly enroute to somewhere else. It isn't helped either that it's given short shrift in documentaries either. I guess that makes me an inadequate historian, but then I can't imagine that if CL is confined to one front at a time, that you would be seeing Greece, Belgium or Luxembourg as salient selling points to warrant their own version. OTOH, since Greece is EAST (map-wise southeast), but then maybe GE will be able to fight there as well in the first module.

I don't think SPWAW ever threw GE to Greece though.

In any event, it's doubtless that a lot of effort has already been put into the nations of the East, and it would be a colossal waste of time to start all over and use the nations of the West instead on that front. I would say the time to lobby for any particular front was many months ago, but I think a lot of us thought it would be like SPWAW in that it goes to every front.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 34

- 9/9/2002 3:47:38 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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It is a mistake to automatically think the big pond down south was not part of the West.

When we talk of historical context, we think of Russia's war in the East, the Allies in the West and the War in The Pacific (which was also the war into the India Ocean).

To subdivide further is just being fussy.

On the subject of games isolating the lower sections of the war in the West though, I would likely have to mention mostly board games.

Like Europa's Western Desert, or Marita Merkur.
Then there is Rommel in the Desert by Columbia Games, which also did Mediteranean Front for the line started with East Front.
Also I have Race For Tunis and Salerno both magazine wargames.
I had a Southern Front game from magazine, but the designer mangled that game.
I have the Avalon Hill game Anzio.

Those titles were to me at least, all part of the war in the West even if to some, the theater is thought of as the Southern Front or the Mediteranean Front.
They involved the British led forces and the American led forces after the fall of France meant that you no longer had cause to make mention of the other major or minor powers that had been conquered.
To say that being south a bit means they are not part of the war in the West though, is like claiming the war outside of Lenningrad requires special distinction from the war in the Caucasus.

Something though had to be picked. You need to have something for the game system to employ initially.
Combat Leader is just to richly detailed a possibility to do everything all at once.
This isn't 1995 and computer games are not the same as they were then. I don't think you can always expect a game to cover all the bases just because a predessesor did.

They released Squad Leader with Russians Germans and Americans. It was everything you needed for everything outside of having the Pacific represented.
It was missing British though and French (which seems odd considering they were fighting a lot earlier than the Russians and the Yanks).
It was a great game though.
But the game gave you only basic gear for a reason. You can't have it all, all at once. Just to expensive.

Just imagine trying to sell ASL the whole deal in one purchase.
That is what asking for all of WW2 and Post War up to Modern is doing when saying the game is segmented unfairly.

ASL has NO peers because ASL leaves nothing out.

I think Combat Leader may soon have no peers if it can do equally well.

I will buy several component Combat Leader games that add up to a tidy sum if each one is on par with the thorough treatment ASL is in its own way.

If Combat Leader's first component is just Russian Front, then it's just the way it's going to be.
ASL was massively successful, and it cost a great deal more, and was also just the Russian Front.

Sometimes when all the squeaky wheels are counted, the truth is the world has more of us that WANT the Russian Front.
And you sell to the largest market with your introductory items if you expect to stay in business.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 35

CL will hopefully cover.... - 9/9/2002 4:10:55 AM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

the theaters of world war two in much the same way SL & ASL did.
Hopefully we will see the component for the war in the East (Poland/Finland/Balkans/Russia) then the next for the Western European front, the third for North Africa/Italy and the fourth for the Pacific. (just my opinion on the break down)
If they break it up as such I would be willing to pay for them all. However, if the theaters of operations are "dribbled" out in a more numerous and area specific fashion then I might be a bit more picky...and not as apt to make as many purchases.

As stated by several people already...if CL lives up to what I've heard and seen thus far, it will be well worth the wait and money to own the CL series.

_____________________________

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Post #: 36

- 9/9/2002 4:54:46 AM

young turk

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/21/2002
From: istanbul, turkey
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]And I think you will find the quality of CL and WITP far above what the predecessors delieved for similar price long ago. The new Combat Mission is going for 45 - depends on your strategy, you can sell each game for 45 or can sell the "original for more, and then discount the add-ons. Heck Advanced Squad Leader is 60 bucks just for the RULES...

Game sales are relatively inelastic. Frank Hunter tells the tale of offering a game for 15 dollars and it didn't sell any better than one priced higher. one data point, one data point, but a telling one.[/B][/QUOTE]

Uh oh. looks like the end of matrix games to me.

I think you are deriving the wrong conclusion from the $15 game example. I think the proper conclusion is that nobody would buy a $15 game because priced at that level, it's a blaring signal to the consumer that something is seriously wrong with the game.

Instead, Paul draws the conclusion that wargame sales are inelastic (i.e., the same number of units will sell regardless of price).

Healthcare and food might be inelastic, computer games certainly are not. Here's an example: me. I would never pay more than $50 for a game.

Jack up the price on the core model, in order to decrease the price of the addons? This is insane. You are going to lose a third of the market because of the initial price hurdle, and the marginal cost of each unit is a relatively minor component of the total cost.

Just my two cents.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 37

- 9/9/2002 5:57:13 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

Les the Sarge 9-1:

quote:

To say that being south a bit means they are not part of the war in the West though, is like claiming the war outside of Lenningrad requires special distinction from the war in the Caucasus.

The war in the Caucasus and Leningrad were indeed very different, however the profound difference between that scenario and Italy and the West is greater still.

Firstly, there's a very large gap of enemy-controlled territory between Italy and the West (taking the Allied perspective). The importance of this was further demonstarted by the Allies themselves, by the landings in S. France. Secondly, at least for a while (and given the trouble the Germans had in N. Africa getting across the M. Sea, that makes another sountern front, but of course what it really was, was the original sounthern front, then shifted after defeat to Sicily and later Italy) Italy was in the picture, including their equipment, fighting the Allies as opposed to the West not having that. Thirdly the terrain is vastly different. Fourthly the commanders in the GE case were very different.

I'm not so sure the GE Leningrad and Caucusus commanders were very much different, but their assignments couldn't possibly be more different. The Caucusus were a grab territory/try to secure oil/and try to cut off the southern part of Russia. Leningrad was believed to be mined like Kiex was, so GE encircled it without occupation. I'm not even sure they seriously entertained getting beyond the immediate encirclement area, whereas the Caucusus was the familiar GE mobile attack.

Even those 2 southern fronts for GE were very different (N. Africa and Sicily/Italy). In N. Africa everybody blitzed each other pretty much, and then in Italy it's all tough old gut.

I was speaking of computer wargames, as board games do not concern me. I assume it takes a lot more money to construct software and it's support, as opposed to board games, so naturally board games would cover every little ant hill that ever seen war (yeah, there's probably an "Ants at War in Stalingrad" board game somewhere). I'm not a board gamer, but I have seen in some of my minor glancing about, that even in this day and age they're making all kinds of microscopic titles, so I'm not too surprised here. If CL were a board game it would've been finished by now, and it probably would've had all fronts, as best as my limited vision can see.

Orzel Bialy: Hmm, assuming the war has to be split up that much (why not just make an East one, then make the rest of the fronts altogether. Unlikely they will do it, but more desirable perhaps), I agree to the letter with not only which front, but even the order you have them in. 3 cheers for Orzel!

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 38

- 9/9/2002 6:49:54 AM

NaKATPase

Posts: 202
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Madison, WI
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]Les the Sarge 9-1:

"Ants at War in Stalingrad" [/B][/QUOTE]

This was a great title, but I really liked what they did with "Advanced Ants at War" and "Cross of Insect".

On a less nonsensical note...
I would say to young turk that Paul's assertion about inelastic wargame sales is probably true if you take a different view on it...
the view that there are only "X" number of wargamers, and that lowering the price of a game is not going to increase that number "X". I agree with you that every gamer though probably does have an upper limit for any game purchase (although that limit is different for everyone)

It seems to me that Matrix is making CL to appeal to wargamers, not to "computer" gamers... being a wargamer myself, I think that it is a good idea, and if I have to pay a bit more because they're making a product for a niche market, then so be it.

Anyhow, after we get our hands on CL we will see whether it was worthwhile or not... perhaps everyone who is hesitant about the cost can simply wait a month after it's been released to hear about how awesome the game is from those who purchased it immediately...

Oh, and if Matrix provides some sort of online opponent matching and especially some sort of massive multiplayer online campaign... then the $60 will DEFINITLY be worth it... heck, WCIII costs $60 (or at least it did when it first arrived)

_____________________________

NaKATPase:
Colocalized with coracle in septate junctions.

"I'd love to step out, but I'd have to see the girl first." -- GM
"A lot of frogs are like that when they're young and repulsive." -- TS

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 39

- 9/9/2002 8:34:37 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

I have sales figures for several years out of teh last 5 (retail anyway) and the sales are all about quality and subject matter - price having almost *ZERO* correlation.

You can not believe the figures if you want, but the data says that subject matter and quality drive copies sold. Not price.

There are x number of wargamers with computers.

There are A%*x wargamers with computers interested in a given era.

There are A%*B%*x wargamers with computers interested in a given era that are interested in a given game scale (Tactical, operational, strategic)

There are A%*B%*C%*x wargamers with computers interested in a given era that are interested in a given game scale (Tactical, operational, strategic) who like the game mechanics (IGOHUGO, WEGO, continuous time, etc)

There are A%*B%*C%*D%*x wargamers with computers interested in a given era that are interested in a given game scale (Tactical, operational, strategic) who like the game mechanics (IGOHUGO, WEGO, continuous time, etc) who are not scared away by negative "buzz" about a game.

There are A%*B%*C%*D%*E%x wargamers with computers interested in a given era that are interested in a given game scale (Tactical, operational, strategic) who like the game mechanics (IGOHUGO, WEGO, continuous time, etc) who are not scared away by negative "buzz" about a game who are not scared away by the price.

There are probably a couple of other factors involved, A, B and C are the dominant factors that limit the potential market of a game. The price point is not nearly the factor to potential sales numbers that era, scale and mechanics are.

Games that significantly cross era, scale and type boundaries are few and far between (and unable to predict until they are "hits")

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 40

- 9/9/2002 11:04:22 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I have business experience, yes actual business experience.

If an item is worth 20 bucks in the mind of the consumer, then the consumer expects it to be sold for 20 bucks. This is not the same as whining about the price though.
Selling it for 10 bucks will yield the same response as selling it for 30.

I had expected to sell coffee tables when I first started developing my business plan. I figured hmmm sell a 250 dollar table for 150 and make a killing if the table only costs me 75 to make.

The problem though, is if the consumer thinks the table is worth 250, then 150 well raise alarm bells "whats wrong with it?".

During the tail end of the 80's we lost more businesses that cut prices to far, than we did businesses that stayed as they were.
Consumers expect a product to be priced correctly regardless of how tight their budget is.

Charles, it is no cheaper to make a board game than a computer game. Both take massive amounts of research to be accurate. Computer games need to be coded so what, the graphics for board games regardless of how simple looking, don't leap out of thin air either.
My original comment though was, it is not impossible to make great games for the southern half of the war in the West.

Matrix is indeed selling to wargamers, not people that just happen to have "some wargames".
A wargamer doesn't see games the same way as "casual gamers".

I have ASL and all the things for it and have paid currently a sum of money that is like 2000+ dollars!!! It was not a single purchase of course. But the price tag for my complete collection is not some paltry 60 bucks.

60 bucks for a computer game on par with ASL, heck no real wargamer is even going to consider saying it is to expensive.
Even 100 bucks is not to expensive.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 41

- 9/9/2002 5:21:28 PM

Colonel von Blitz

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]
120$ for a game? It better be darn good for that price.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

90$-120$ that's way out of my budget :(

Even 60$ is right on the upper limit and I consider that an extremely expensive game.

I hope you Matrix guys get an European distributor...

[QUOTE][B] Btw, new games cost already around 50-55$ here so compared to that 60$ isn't that much. [/B][/QUOTE]

Also, I've bought new games and found that they cost usually 45$-50$...where did you bought your EXPENSIVE games, Voriax?!? (Let me guess: Anttila :D )

-Colonel-

_____________________________

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Post #: 42

- 9/9/2002 5:33:31 PM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz

Also, I've bought new games and found that they cost usually 45$-50$...where did you bought your EXPENSIVE games, Voriax?!? (Let me guess: Anttila :D )

-Colonel- [/B][/QUOTE]

Where did I mentioned that I paid that sum? :) Besides, 50-55 euros seem to be common asking price for new games, based on browsing some Finnish game store web pages.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 43

- 9/9/2002 5:45:29 PM

Colonel von Blitz

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]50-55 euros seem to be common asking price for new games, based on browsing some Finnish game store web pages. [/B][/QUOTE]

This sum is quite usual, though I find that this 50$+ price is meant for ignorant parents and for grand-mothers, who buy the game for the 12-year-old kid :D

It took me 2 minutes to find, for example, that just released Mafia costs 41$ (even if you order it via mail, there will be no postage charged if you pay it in advan, or pay it with VISA) :)

Also, I never paid more than 35$ for Combat Mission.

One just has to know where to buy the games ;)

-Colonel-

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 44

- 9/9/2002 7:58:16 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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When you get a place to stay, it's either a rented room, a dump or an acceptable level location.
The rooms, dumps and acceptable places often don't have much difference in price either eh.

400 for the room, 500 for the dump or 650 for an entire house like in my case here. between 400 and 650 we go all the way from a lousy room, right up to a full home (some suck, some don't). My place for instance while an entire home, has wiring that is a joke (can't even run a table saw off the outlets here).

Of course buying a place can be anywhere from god only knows what for a shack equivalent, to 200,000.00 for us common people (I am ignoring idiotic priced rich people homes).

Then we have modes of transport. You can get a bike from 5 bucks at auction actually. Or a wreck for a few hundred bucks. Used for a few thousand, right up to a nice new car for hmm to many variables here lets say 20k (hey I don't know much about cars).

Food, well I don't smoke drink gamble or do "substances". So I actually eat well for a person in my income bracket.
You can live on Kraft Dinner if you want. Or eat a real steak once a week, milk as often as you like, bread like it was free, and cook meals cause it amuses you.

Just what the heck is my point.

Well Combat Leader costing 60 bucks US means only that it's not a bargain bin purchase.
You won't be getting it for a paltry 25 bucks like some new games that were just not that hard to make.
It won't be the average 40-50 dollar game, because it ISN'T an average game!!
You won't be finding it as a free download anytime soon, nor is it likely you will find it discounted in a store that gets it in bulk.

Why should anyone assume that a game that will compare nicely with a 4 inch 16 oz choice steak, should cost the same as a damned Big Mac??!!

I have paid out sums ranging from the low 40s up to the average 80s for ASL modules with absolutely no problem (and I would have to go count them just to know how many I have there are so many). And I did it willingly. I did it knowing that there are lots of full complete wargames out there for 40 bucks average.

Does it make ASL unreasonably expensive, if it is priced well beyond a common wargame? Nope, not at all. ASL is a porche wargame.

If you want Kraft Dinner grade wargames, fine, enjoy your Kraft Dinner grade wargames (hey I like KD, but it costs less than a buck a serving while a good steak doesn't).

I think saying Combat Leader is too expensive, is indicative of wanting something for nothing to much. I think comparing Porches to Ladas is also not going to get anyone interested.

If you can't afford a Porche game, just accept it. But don't try to convince Porche to make Lada grade Porches:)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 45

I love Matrix and SPWAW - 9/10/2002 5:49:24 AM

ivantheterrible

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline

I will pay $60 for CL when it comes out.

(in reply to campekenobi)

Post #: 46

- 9/10/2002 12:17:30 PM

Colonel von Blitz

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

~60$ for Combat Leader, though it's on the upper limit of my budget, I'll probably buy it anyway (and eat macaroni and tuna for few months :D :D ). At the moment though this sum "frightens" me somewhat, since no-one really knows what CL will be...maybe if wargaming community gets their hand on a demo version someday...;)

But in any case, I'm not ready to pay millions of dollars for delivery to Europe, like it was with Mega Campaigns. This is where Matrix has to do better than with MCs. I know A LOT of potential customers who simply ignored MCs altogether because delivery costs were too high. Maybe "pay first, then download" version should be made available in future :)

-Colonel-

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

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Post #: 47

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