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pocket question - 1/25/2011 10:52:08 PM

CharonJr

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
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Hi,

I have a question concerning a pocket I have formed in my current AAR (this is against the AI, so I might have some hope ;) ):

Reading the weakness of pockets is still not one of my strengths and maybe this can be usefull for others, too.

As can be seen this pocket is far from secure IMO (turn 41, so last turn of snow before the mud hits IIRC).

I think I can close gap 1 with moving in a mot division from Tula and moving the other mot division 1 hex to the NE.

Concerning gap 2 and gap 5 I fail to see anything I can do except to hope that moving into/crossing 1+2 ZOCs is too hard.

It there any better way to deal with gap 3 than the indicated move of the armor in order to enlarge my ZOC and hopefully prevent units from inside the pocket to push NE?

And for gap 4 I can see no way how to prevent that one except by a desperate attack by the armor on the units and lvl 2 fort in Tambov (HQ, 1 rifle division, 1 rifle brigade - would need a major wonder to work) since the armor cant move anymore and no other units are in range.

Any easy breakthroughs I have missed and any better ideas than what I have outlined above? I dont think the AI has the power/will to attack my units, so I am mostly concerned about moves that would open up the pocket.

Looking for some advice here.

Thank you.

CharonJr

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 1/25/2011 10:59:36 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: pocket question - 1/25/2011 11:03:05 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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It won't be very secure. There is a good chance they will not be able to push thru your ZOC. You don't have alot of movement left so not a lot of info I can give

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 2

RE: pocket question - 1/25/2011 11:16:13 PM

Klydon

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Nice job on being ready to nail that many Soviets. Your promotion to Field Marshal will come through if you can hold it.

As to your questions, one thing I am seeing in common is you are leaving too many hexes in the pocket under Soviet control and you need to make your lanes of control wider where you can.

You are on the right track with the move you reference with the armor unit at 3 and that is because you will widen the encirclement while displacing that routed unit outside the pocket. Because the Soviets don't have any non routed combat units at the end of your move, that hex currently under Soviet control will flip to your control. Paying to get across the river into German owned hexes is not something that will allow any Soviet unit to move real far at this stage of the game. I don't know who has the movement in the motorized division stacked near point 2, but with 18 movement points, I would look to move and take ownership of the hex directly to the SW and then to the SE before coming back to where you are. Getting those two hexes under your control will absolutely be huge in the number of troops he can move up there in the pocket for a potential counter attack or any scheme to break the pocket there.

Point 4 is tougher and you are right.. the pocket will likely be broken there. I don't know what the movement cost of clear is for the moment for your panzers, but if you really want to take a try at it if the movement rate is 2 per hex, I would suggest you move the panzer division at point 3 SE (displace the routed unit) then SW, SW. This will make it a 3 hex gap while displacing the HQ and a routed unit. Not sure if that will get the job done or not and it leaves point 3 in the air a bit. Point 5, if that is the motorized division with 11 movement, take the "5" hex and move back or move the 10-4 armor to take its spot and move the 10-8 armor over after popping that stack and use the motorized unit to take both the "5" hex and the hex to the NW of it.

One final thing I would be concerned with and that is motorized divisions are not all that strong. Russian has a good number of forces on the south side of the pocket and you have a couple 3 point motorized divisions there looking to get smacked. I would try to stack them (3 point moves on the 1 point) and move the 4-3 infantry unit 1 to the east. Would also consider stacking the 3-8 infantry there on top of the 3-0 infantry to the NE.

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 3

RE: pocket question - 1/25/2011 11:16:39 PM

CharonJr

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Any gaps I have missed in your opinion? I have to get better at reading pockets here.

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 4

RE: pocket question - 1/25/2011 11:19:43 PM

CharonJr

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Should have mentioned that in the OP, the 18MPs there is a HQ, same around point 5 ;)

Had to spend all MPs on most units to get this far, in hindsight I should have tried to keep the pocket smaller. Snow does hurt the MPs.

There will be some additional infantry attacks on the western side of the pocket as well to get me better mop up positions if the pocket should hold and place some ZOCs on the units inside the pocket (Lipetsk and the hexes to the NW and SW).

< Message edited by CharonJr -- 1/25/2011 11:28:01 PM >

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 5

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 12:48:47 AM

2ndACR

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From: Irving,Tx
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If you can't get them this time, you will next turn.

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 6

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 12:53:22 AM

CharonJr

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Quick update of the situation after the attacks and bringing in the additional mot division mentioned earlier, I even tried the "miracle attack" and while I got very close it did not happen in the end - the other 3 "attacks" were recon flights ;) In addition I moved in some Romanian units. But the basic problems should remain.

It seems like the brigade was unable to participate and maybe the attack might help to prevent the division from entering the ZOC or does the "each unit may at least move 1 hex" include moving into enemy ZOCs, too?

Every stacked unit which still shows enough MPs to move is an HQ, the combat unit does not have enough MPs left.

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(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 7

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 12:55:06 AM

CharonJr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

If you can't get them this time, you will next turn.

It will be hard with the coming mud, while my railhead is close to Lipetsk my easternmost units will become isolated due to the mud, basically it is now or never ;)

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 8

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 1:01:30 AM

2ndACR

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From: Irving,Tx
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Well, then kill what you can as you pull back. Did not read how close the mud was.

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 9

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 7:17:34 AM

heliodorus04

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From: Nashville TN
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Never count on Romanians to hold anything.

One thing to consider in 2nd ACR's 2-turn rolling isolation/encirclement is saving APs for HQ Buildup. It's the perfect time to use HQ buildup, when you outrun your supply line right before whether gets worse.

If you can, in that first isolation turn, position your HQs so they don't have to move and think ahead to next turn with your units so they can get within command movement point range, then that second turn means you'll be slow in movement distance, but strong in combat.

And as someone else said: it's the friendly hexes that matter so very very much. Those are what enable follow-on infantry to move as though they were motorized. (I say that for the benefit of other encirclement situations, because infantry can't go far in mud regardless).

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 10

RE: pocket question - 1/26/2011 8:59:18 PM

CharonJr

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Ha, the pocket held, but sadly not due to my genius at making pockets secure but due to the AI obviously being unwilling to make the opening move to the west of Tambov.

But thank you for your input. I try to make my "corridors" wider here, but being reminded of it again and again can't hurt till I do it instinctively. Against the AI this might work, but never against a good player.

Now to get my poor isolated units back to safety through the mud...

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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 1/26/2011 9:00:03 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: pocket question - 1/27/2011 1:56:35 AM

heliodorus04

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From: Nashville TN
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Another example to newbies that after you get the hang of the interface, start playing humans.
There's a lot of crappy ones like me in their 4th or 5th scenario. Your learning curve will go up so much faster against humans, and the AI will teach you bad, bad habits.

The AI wasted 20 divisions by not making a simple move to connect the pocket. :(
Not to totally indict the AI, it works well in a great number of ways. But it blinked on this pocket.

(in reply to CharonJr)

Post #: 12

RE: pocket question - 1/29/2011 11:14:02 PM

CharonJr

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I tried to be less sloppy this time around and with the weather being clear I have had lots of MPs to fool around with this time.

What do you think?

I think this pocket should be fairly secure (the NW one, the one around Tambov is just me trying to have some fun ;)

Air recon shows nothing to the east and the Oka in the north should help in addition to having a fair number of converted hexes. Any glaring weaknesses you are able to see with the "serious" pocket?

And considering that the AI failed to use simple movement to open the last pocket even the one around Tambov might hold, but actually I hope it will not hold and this will show that the AI has at least a 50:50 chance to deal with weak pockets like this.