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Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wr... - 1/26/2011 9:45:21 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Ok. It's late and I've just seen something that almost has me without words to comprehend. Probably the last straw with my play WitE as axis until the ridiculous combat mechanics (not isolate case) is fix. Let me give you the facts.


My opponent made a little push on some of my minor allies in the south on 5/42. I had a few rested armor units nearby and decide to counter attack a sov Rifle div that just took part in combat on the sov previous turn. So I'm thinking all the advantage are in my favor:

1) leadership
2) moral (90)
3) experience - all the 11th Pz Div units are almost 99 ... umm does that mean like elite or what
4) superior equipment pz div vs inf
5) *** OPEN TERRAIN and CLEAR
6) oh did I mention Pz Div vs Sov 1942 Inf unit with low moral and low exp?
7) I'm sure I had some more advantages, but late and I'm still dizzy from what I've seen

So let me just show you what happened with images. First one is of my wonderful Pz Div which my mobile forces is about all I had left after the harsh winter in any decent moral and exp shape. As I kept them back in cities and urban.





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< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/26/2011 9:56:48 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 9:47:42 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Now here's the part that just made me rub my eyes.. the combat...oh my







Ok notice the following:

1) the modified combat value of 90:5 (88 afvs to 0, axis had more arty and lost 2x more arty)
2) my loses are greater than this meak 42 sov inf div in CLEAR weather, CLEAR terrain, and no FORT lvl.

Ok, somebody that has any knowledge of what would have really happened as I'm too tired ... have at it.



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< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/26/2011 9:51:55 AM >

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 9:53:03 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Have you watched the actual combat (i.e. with slow Combat Resolution setting) or you just skipped it?

I am asking this because that way you would be able to see what Soviet system actually made German casualties...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 9:54:55 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		What does it matter? It's insane that this would have ever happened? What am I going to see that they were equipment with ray guns or something?

How can I continue to play a game that is going to allow this to even happen 1 time.. which I'm sure this is not isolated.

Now just image if this lone sov inf div was fort lvl 1, 2, or 3+ and maybe in non-open terrain? Lol, how bad would it have been then. If my elite pz units can't excel in circumstances like this, not sure how I can even go forward as my inf is not in great shape at all after the winter blizzard.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/26/2011 9:59:31 AM >

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 9:58:16 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, might be his arty or something has more range?  Watching the detail may shed some light on why the result was like that.  As they say, CV is just an indicator and combat results actually depends on the actual units that engage.  Early Soviet Tank Divisions have 100s of tanks and high CV but when they engage in combat they all disintegrate since the Germans can kill them before they fire.


< Message edited by jomni -- 1/26/2011 10:00:07 AM >

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:01:01 AM   
abulbulian


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Status: offline 		Wow so that one Hw rgt was that nasty? Guess I know what su I building when I play Sov.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:03:39 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		This was a hasty attack, and there is a lot of variance with hasty attacks. I used to get very upset about "freak" results (didn't I Pavel), but I realised that they even out in the long term.

Attackers will often lose more than defenders, and the soviets have extra defensive fire to face when they attack.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:04:55 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		For casualties that small, it's INSANE to whine that much. INSANE, I tell you!

Take an INSANE pill.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:05:45 AM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		What is wrong?

Let us go through the combat by the numbers:

1. he got 19 IL2 attacking your tanks.  That probably cost you around 50-100 men, and some artillery and maybe 1 tank.  Mostly damaged which don't show up properly due to a bug.
2.  He has a GUARDS BM Hwz Rgt, this is 203 mm Hwz plus his internal artillery.  During the advance of your troops your losses were from that unit alone, were between 100-150 men.
3.  His mortars (of which he has a fair amount) would have fired on your advancing troops 3 times for the heavies so another 100-150 men lost.
4.  His anti-tank guns and flame throwers killed 8 tanks which is reasonable, that is 40 men lost.
5.  His HMGs and Rifle/SMG fire would account for a further 100-150 men.

I would assume 400-600 men as a reasonable minimum estimate of your expected attacking losses and you took 646 which isn't out of the ordinary if he had been dug in your losses would have been higher.  You were advancing across open ground against an enemy with lots of heavy artillery what exactly do you think you should see?  The losses in 41 are the way they are because the russian artillery only fires in long range mode, it is pathetic in terms of skill and so you take 40 men lost there, then nothing happens and you shoot up his troops on the way in with your artillery and probably the unit breaks even before its infantry fires.  In this case your troops were under artillery fire probably at least 3 barrages, continuous heavy mortar fire started as your motorized infantry closed, intense light mortar, machine gun, and infantry gun fire got added to that and it hit your troops just before your tanks broke in and started shooting them up with their machine guns.

You inflicted sufficient losses to force a morale check retreat...the magic number seems to be 10%, I very very rarely see a unit stay in combat past that.  But looking at the numbers for that division I'd guess it is very weak in infantry strength so likely you disrupted and damaged a lot of units.

Watch the fight under message level 4 then complain.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:08:25 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I don't know what your complaining about.

Ive seen Axis Security Divisions inflict 1000 destroyed men when they are attacked at 50,000 men to 5,000.

Hasty attacks are particularly bloody, but sometimes are the quickest way to make progress.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:21:49 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
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Status: offline 		hasty attack or not. This sov unit was out in the open, not fortified against a pz div that was elite (high 90's exp). It' should have rolled over that inf div. Has nobody read any book about this type of combat on the east front?

Did you look at the modified combat values? 90:5

If people want to continue to just agree to favor WitE is fine and nothing is wrong... that's your choice. I know what I know about the warfare on the east front and the capabilities of each side through the years. This just feels so wrong in many ways..

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:27:22 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		The modified combat values are calculated after the firing between the 2 units has taken place. Maybe Pavel will stop by and explain things to you as patiently as he did with me.

When I was in the army we used to say "FIDO" - F' it and Drive On! And in the end that's what I had to say when trying to understand some of these numbers.





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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:41:14 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Wow, I'm kind of surprised by your reaction, did you expect the Soviet division to simply surrender?  Maybe I'm missing something, I would be very disappointed if the combat mechanics guaranteed your panzers a smashing victory every time.  Clear weather and no fortif level doesn't mean they're playing on a tabletop, and the defenders got some licks in on you.

Yeah, the result is a good one for the Sovs, and a bit suprising, but come on...I could see your point--maybe--if you had lost dozens of panzers, but you only lost 8.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 10:46:00 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		@ Abulbulian: I have looked at my previous post, and I don't want it to come across as dismissive. I absolutely, 100% sympathise and empathise with what you are saying. The other testers will tell you that I wrote enough posts about casualties and CV's what would make War and Peace look like a pamphlet.

I kept nagging away at it and eventually a major bug was found and fixed just days before release. I am confident that the combat engine is pretty accurate.

What you are seeing may, and I emphasise may, be a symptom of soviet combat effectiveness being slightly above what it should be for this stage in the war, and which is why we are focussing in on experience and morale data, as these are direct modifiers on units' ability to use their ray guns effectively.


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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 11:03:24 AM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

hasty attack or not. This sov unit was out in the open, not fortified against a pz div that was elite (high 90's exp). It' should have rolled over that inf div. Has nobody read any book about this type of combat on the east front?

Did you look at the modified combat values? 90:5

If people want to continue to just agree to favor WitE is fine and nothing is wrong... that's your choice. I know what I know about the warfare on the east front and the capabilities of each side through the years. This just feels so wrong in many ways..


Combat value is NEVER used in calculation of combat results. It is ONLY used to determine if the unit retreats. Combat occurs between devices. An Art Rgt has a CV of 0 but it has 36 guns in it, those guns depending on crew skill will fire multiple times in a turn, at different ranges, with skill related chances to hit. A guards Rgt will fire more often then a normal unit from my observation.

Hasty attacks don't change how the combat occurs they only have a greater chance to not work since the final CV has a higher chance of being insufficient to force a retreat. The losses you suffer from the combat hasty or deliberate seem to be the same (I can't recall seeing an obvious difference) but if you fail to get the retreat then you don't inflict the retreat attrition and so you see only the combat losses. Retreat attrition can be significant depending on morale, checks and failures etc.

So your armoured division did an overrun, which worked brilliantly and you got some minor losses. Most of those are probably "damaged" but given it was a 19 CV Russian infantry division it was (for a russian rifle division) fairly experienced, plus it had heavy artillery and air support. You forced it to pull out when you over ran the lead element of the unit.

Your attacking troops suffer the full losses from defender fire the defender only suffers till it reaches (typically) 10% losses then it pikes off and if no leader checks fail the retreat attrition is relatively small. At a guess half the losses the Rifle division took were from combat, and probably from your Panzers machine guns the rest were retreat.

If this was a russian attack your losses would have been significantly higher, attacking a german division with those numbers and 19 stuka's...3000-4000 men, 20-40 tanks easily. You got off with minor scrapes to your units paint.

Watch the combat at lvl 4 and you will see how this all works together.

I assaulted a depleted Pz division in the blizzard that had been cut off from supply for 2 weeks (3 week total isolated) that had ...6000 men, 120 guns and 50-70 tanks. I used 100,000 men, 1200 guns, and 250 tanks (or something not far from those numbers on both sides). My losses were on the order of 5000 men, 50 guns, and 60 tanks (virtually every light tank)...so when it was all settled out the net losses including surrender were about the same. For 20:1 odds...and you are complaining because why again?

< Message edited by Paul McNeely -- 1/26/2011 11:14:21 AM >

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 11:14:07 AM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		This combat indeed doesn't seem particularly out of whack. I do think that mobile units are quite a bit too weak when (hasty) attacking. As deliberate attacks cost an uneconomical amount of MP's, you want to make as many hasty attacks as possible.

Mobile unit CV seems to be modified fairly drastically relative to defender CV when hasty attacking and that's why I rarely use single divisions for hasty attacks. If I hasty attack a 2=6 Rifle division with a Panzer division with a CV of around 18, I'm normally going to lose. With two Panzer divisions, I might win. A successful attack will cause around 1000 losses to the defender, which is minimal considering the forces you're using and my own losses will be around 500 (which is fine).

The main problem is the lack of punch of mobile divisions, which makes the checkerboard/carpet so effective for the Soviets currently: you just can't attack through a carpet, as your hasty attacks are not good enough, they'll just bump the defender back a hex, making the next hex impossible to attack.

Of course, the Axis can pull some of the same tricks the Soviets are pulling in many AAR's now, so when Soviet players get to 1943 I expect to see similar posts by them, noting how difficult it is to get through a line.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 11:24:40 AM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		course by 43 the IL2 horde will smoke you more than some howitzers

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 12:17:43 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		In 1943 you won't see exactly the same thing, especially from the Soviet side. While attacking the German lines the Soviets will incur large losses, but they can be replaced in 43 and 44 and the German lines will be thrown back at least a hex at a time each week. What you wont see in 43 is any giant encirclements by the Soviets, the Soviets have to bash the German lines back and then when small holes open up insert a Mech and a Tank Corps (at the min.) into the hole. The Germans will be able to chop off lone Tank/Mech bandits so in 1943 the look and feel is very nice and historic.

Regarding your losses at first I thought I was going to see something like this which would be really wonky:

Forces Engaged

ATK: men 12028, art 144, afv 88   DEF: 8644, art 98, afv 0
LOST: men 2028, art 44, afv 38    DEF: men 21, art 1, afv 0

ATK: ftr 18, bmr 0, utl 0   DEF: ftr 10, bmr 19
LOST: ftr 8, bmr 0, utl 0   DEF: ftr 0, bmr 1

456th Rifle Division HELD

That type of result would be insane for sure, instead you barely lost anything and you did cause a retreat result so your complaint is not warranted.

I find your remark:

quote:

Has nobody read any book about this type of combat on the east front?


Insulting at best.






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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 12:26:34 PM   
XAAL.


Posts: 25
Joined: 4/15/2002
From: Earth.
Status: offline 		+1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

For casualties that small, it's INSANE to whine that much. INSANE, I tell you!

Take an INSANE pill.


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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 12:31:31 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 355
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Status: offline 		I feel for you. You still have the Blizzard turns in your bones and an OOB which probably suffered more from mere Blizzard attrition than we all will see in a few patches (Blizzard effects are still work in progress I bet). So it's natural that you try to avoid unnecessary losses and react strongly to this combat resolution.

But: I agree with Pauls analysis. Recognizing the overwhelming odds against him the enemy very early accepts he won't be able to hold his position and retreats. He suffers retreat casualties (rearguard gets mauled by your tanks) and you take cacualties because of your improvised and uncoordinated hasty attack over open terrain (Guard Arty and tac air support have a field day on your exposed troops, the result could have been worse).



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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 12:53:45 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Status: offline 		Pretty accurate result I would say. The axis werent bullet proof. Maybe next time you are lucky and wont loose that many tanks...

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 12:58:52 PM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		so if his odds had been a lot worse, and a probe conducted, he would have suffered hardly any casualties but not taken the hex?

< Message edited by raizer -- 1/26/2011 12:59:36 PM >

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 1:18:28 PM   
Korzun


Posts: 126
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline 		Sorry, this thread is utter madness. Making a fuss about such a non-issue is questionable at best.

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Post #: 23
RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 1:19:30 PM   
MengJiao

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 12/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

hasty attack or not. This sov unit was out in the open, not fortified against a pz div that was elite (high 90's exp). It' should have rolled over that inf div. Has nobody read any book about this type of combat on the east front?

Did you look at the modified combat values? 90:5

If people want to continue to just agree to favor WitE is fine and nothing is wrong... that's your choice. I know what I know about the warfare on the east front and the capabilities of each side through the years. This just feels so wrong in many ways..


It probably doesn't matter how elite you are when your hasty recon allows you to drive into an 8-inch howitzer shell while you are busy congradulating yourself on how elite you are and how little resistance you expect from a bunch of people with 8-inch howiters pre-registered on the most obvious lines of (hasty) approach.

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Post #: 24
RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 1:42:06 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry, this thread is utter madness. Making a fuss about such a non-issue is questionable at best.


There is always the straw that breaks the camel's back, and this might be his. I stopped testing for a month because I got so frustrated over some combat results.

But I've learned to live with the "freak" results - I have seen much, much worse than this but for Abu, this is too much, so I can understand.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 1:55:39 PM   
jhdeerslayer


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Status: offline 		For me, this issue adds to the game and not take away. Nothing is a guaranteed or expected.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 1:57:26 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Bob, you should start a CV support group or something.

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 2:00:05 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Support group? Are you saying that CVs are better when there are 12 steps to a unit? That sounds like tabletop to me...

(thank you, I will be here all week. Try the veal.)

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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 2:00:05 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
But I've learned to live with the "freak" results - I have seen much, much worse than this but for Abu, this is too much, so I can understand.


Too much for him?? Every couple days there is something that is "too much" for him, it's not the first thread ba Ara that has "madness!!!!" or "insanity!!!!!" in thread title, because - boo hoo - bunch of people died in a WAR.

I guess every forum needs a Drama queen, and we have Ara

I propose devs release a special version of WITE for Ara and his mates, you start a game, click a button and get the following message:

GERMAN VICTORY, MOSCOW FALLS, SOVIETS SURRENDER.

German casualties: 0
Soviet casualties: everyone

Easy to develop and would suit some players. I propose this version be called WITE - Axis Fanboy Edition (WITE - AFE)

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 29
RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 1/26/2011 2:06:55 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		We're all entitled to throw our toys out of our prams every now and then - I prefer to do it in private.

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