kirkgregerson
Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
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Well I've just had about of enough of the WitEAK people. Yes, it's my new term for these people that just jump on the a thread to say absolutely nothing and just want to (A)SS (K)ISS. Joel and Gary don't need your empty comments and I'm very tired of them too.
After looking at this post I'm very amazed like abulbulian at that battle outcome too. I'm even more amazed at the idiototic responses I've seen from people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Madness?? 
Where's the Sparta Kick? I want the Sparta kick! A Sparta kick was supposed to be on this thread! 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shellshock
quote:
ORIGINAL: abulbulian
Has nobody read any books about this type of combat on the east front?
Sorry, I musta skipped the Marvel Comic version where Panzer Divisions are rolling Death Stars that vaporize everything in their path.
And there's many more. Calling these people retards would only be offensive to actual retards, so I won't bother.
I guess I should not be surprise at the low-IQ type responses on this thread, people like Oleg Mastruko have never had anything useful to say from day 1.
I'll give you 'little trouble makers' a chance to actually defend yourselves. You want to jump down abulbulian throat for posting a situation that WOULD have never occurred. So here's where I'm going to make you look the fools you are.
Let me just get this down again so maybe those that had trouble reading the initial post can make another attempt. Oleg, you can skip this part as you've already establish that your mental challenges prevent you from any sort of reasonable thought process.
It's spring 1942 and a sov rifle div has ventured out into the open terrain on a clear sunny afternoon to participant in an offensive against some Romanian units. It has a minor victory, but suffers a little fatigue and some slight loses. After hearing about this Soviet push a German general from a nearby PZ Corps HQ dispatches the well rested, elite, fully supplied/fuel and TOE stocked 11th Panzer Div to counter attack. The 11th Pz with it's brillant commander is within 20 miles and thus is able to go into action with little fatigue. It finds the 465th Rile Div and battle commences. The 90 battle hardened tanks drive forward and dust flies up all over the plains.
<inject fiction here now>
The Sov forces although with half the moral and exp of the Pz units are able to put a fantasy defense even though they have not entrench to any degree. They finally do make a retreat but are able to incur more loses on the PZ unit even though their leadership was sub-par.
LOL, yes some good fiction.
For those that posed silly, worthless, and non-objective comments like "I see nothing wrong", "that's how the games works.. live with it", "stop whining" here's your chance to post something meaningful.. if you can find it. ONE THING I'VE YET TO SEE IS ANY DOCUMENTATION THAT IS WOULD EVER HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. Our we suppose the model the game on improbabilities or the probabilities and realism of the time?
So yeah, I'm calling out all you bandwagon peeps to put your money where your mouth is and give some evidence that the following ever occurred in 1942. If not, do us all a favor and keep your WitEKA mouths shut until you do.
So from the game we have basically:
German PZ Div
- high 90's for exp on all components (ELITE)
- moral of 89
- TOE almost 80%
- fatigue <= 10%
- top notch leadership values (from what was posted)
- 12k men
- 20 exp fighters BF 109
v.s.
Sov 42 Rifle Div
- moral med-low(s.b. in 50s?)
- exp med-low (30s 40s? - if these sov rifle div have high exp in 42.. that's a another issue)
- fatigue low-med?
- leadership low-avg?
- 8.6k men
- 10 fighter Hurican II, 20 IL-2 bombers (exp low? in 1942?)
battlefield: open terrain, clear spring skies, defending sov unit has 0 fort lvl
So this outcome of axis loses 646 men, 18arty, 8 afvs to the sov loses of 521 men and 7 arty seems ok? Oh and BTW the sov had a very skilled rereat too as they didn't suffer more than 500 lose?
At least the air ware seemed to be model correct... 0 axis loses and 5 fighter and 5 sov bomber loses.
Ok, I've been reading a few of the following books lately that have been describing how the German Pz Div were almost 'super-human' in dealing with some of the most incredible tasks of defending an attacking.
To the Gates of Stalingrad: Soviet-German Combat Operations, April-August 1942: David Glantz
The 6th Panzer Division 1937-1945: Helmut Ritgen
These mobile units were called upon by the Germany army over and over again to be the 'fireman' and/or spearheads when needed.
In all the readings I've yet to see an example of a sov Rifle div accomplishing what happen in this fictional WitE battle given the circumstances. Here's a little blurb which I found about the Kharkov 2nd battle:
"Destruction of the Barvenkovo Salient
Both sides spent the 20th of May reorganizing their forces in and around the Barvenkovo salient. During the 20th, the 14th Panzer Division captured Protopopovka, which narrowed the neck of the pocket to only twelve miles.
On the 22nd, German forces began their attempt to seal the neck of the pocket. In the south the 14th and 16th Panzer Divisions attacked northwards from Protopopovka and Zagorodnoe toward Chepel and the 14th Panzer Division reached Bayrak, to the south of Balakleia. In the north, the redeployed elements of the 3rd and 23rd Panzer Divisions attacked southwards from Balakleia and Andreevka smashing through the 337th and 47th Rifle Divisions, forcing crossings of the Northern Donets River at Chervonyi Donets and Krasnaia Gusarovka."
In in almost all cases of the 42 battles, a sov rifle div caught in the open was cannon-fodder for a German Pz Div.
Oh, and most of these Pz Div later in the war that were still performing incredible feats were doing so very under strength in men and tanks.
We also have to keep in mind the tactics that these PZ leaders possessed that allowed them to win battles with minimal loses even against forces much larger than theirs. In this WitE battle example the 11th PZ has the larger force which makes the results even more disturbing.
Most of what I've seen is that Sov Rifle div out in the open/un-entrenched could never have pulled this feat off as described by abulbulian.
So let's see some meaningful comments about what is and is NOT possible.
Also, if one lone sov rilfe div out in the open is able to do this to an elite Pz unit.. wow. The sov player has these rifle div to burn. I think the results of this battle reflect some serious issues that only an expert player vs a moron sov player could ever hope to overcome.
That's my opinion. I don't plan to play the axis anytime soon. But I'll be happy to play the soviets in a PBEM with any of you haters.
< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 1/26/2011 5:17:53 PM >
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RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something wa... - 
Sparta kick. haha funny. 
Some dude on the Internet called me a fool for thinking this thread is hilarious. 
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