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RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 12:37:03 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

city bombing only at night sounds like a reasonable hr. With manpower only targetted, the industry would get damaged by fires (if fires actually work in AE which I haven�t seen evidence for yet).

And the last ime this topic reared its head there was documented evidence introduced of night bombing of islands at 1000+ mile ranges by the Japanese (Wake maybe?) Dead reckoning is pretty good over water, an island's borders can be seen from altitude against sea even with minor moonlight, and a lot of islands were small enough that the airfield could be IDed.

So what about night bombing of islands? Do we over-complicate a working system that much again?

Why do players who think night-bombing is overpowered or ahistorical DO IT, then come here to complain about it?

Just Say No. Be happy.

I don�t do it because I think it�s overpowered. To be more precise, I didn�t do it until the Japanese decided to fly night attacks which I retaliated with my 4E which lead the Japanese to stop and me too. I also didn�t do night bombing in WITP.

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Post #: 61

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 12:48:36 PM

beppi

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Night Bombing from my point of view is clearly overpowered. My opponent and i have more or less the agreement to only do very very limited strikes.

As an example approximative a month ago my opponent sent more than 200 fighters to bases in northern Australia. As i have Tennant Creek and Daly Waters at lvl 9 with around 500 2E and 4E based there it is a quite futile attempt.

When i do airfield attacks during the day the problem with the current radar is that you have almost no chance to hit planes on the ground so i tried a multi night attack on 4 bases with around 50 - 60 4E each. The result for the Japanese was devastating and i killed around 60 planes in that turn.

And if there a no night fighters on defense you get not a lot of damaged 4E and few operational losses. So in theory the perfect way to attack the Japanese.

I have to admit i was a little ashamed after that at is just too ridiculous to do night attacks with no way to stop them and unbelievable low op losses. So for me i stopped them completely and even if my Japanese opponent would use them i would by no way use them on airfield attack any more. Completely kills any challenge out of the game.

< Message edited by beppi -- 1/26/2011 12:49:11 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 62

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 2:15:15 PM

Puhis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.

I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.

That result does not make my statement true. I said nothing about and losses expected. I wonder if it had to do with using LRCAP? I don't remember seeing that problem using CAP( I have not played any turns as Japan for weeks. )

Maybe one my opponets, Puhis, can shed some light on his losses against my bombers? With FOW I don't want to make any claims of his losses.

Yes, I did fly night LRCAP with Nicks and Tojos. I had to stop it, because A2A losses were heavy. I think one night I lost 4 or 5 Nicks. Can't remember Tojo losses. I does seem that LRCAP at night is bad idea...

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 63

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 3:00:32 PM

Icedawg

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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I seem to disagree with the posters here..I feel night bombing is just about right, if not dummied down a tad for certain time frames.

The Brits were the masters of night bombing after probably 1941, had been at it a while and used "pathfinder" units to mark the target which effectively let the main formation find it.

Since they were not going for pinpoint targetting, an airfield would of course be much easier to hit, than say a single building, or even factory complex.

The night bombing was probably cut down from the original WITP by maybe 50% in effectiveness, and if we further castrate it, will no longer be an option for either player, (even the units which historically mastered the concept?).

Well, artillery has been "castrated", so why not night bombing too?

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 64

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 4:07:44 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Well, artillery has been "castrated", so why not night bombing too?

Because after they castrated low-level bombing (para-frags and skip-bombing), they had to leave the Allies some means of waging an offensive?

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 65

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 4:56:58 PM

m10bob

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Post #: 66

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 8:13:55 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.

Yes, I have noticed this. Initially my one night fighter squadron (beaufighters) shot down about 4 bettys on the first raid that they faced. But I am not sure if they have ever scored another kill. I don't think my night fighters have been anymore effective than regular fighters but I have not tested this enough.

But at night bombers vs fighter fire seems to be very effective vs non-night fighters. Perhaps this is WAD as any non radar equipped fighter would have to get pretty dang close to a bomber to have a decent shot and at close range the bomber gunners would also be able to get in some licks. Also, I doubt very seriously if there was much deflection fire by either side at night. Just direct approaches with easy lines for defensive fire.

However, the losses to either the bombers or fighters are so far negligable so I don't care much and any fighter does seem to disrupt night attacks with some bombers just turning away.

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Post #: 67

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 8:40:43 PM

PresterJohn001

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.

Yes, I have noticed this. Initially my one night fighter squadron (beaufighters) shot down about 4 bettys on the first raid that they faced. But I am not sure if they have ever scored another kill. I don't think my night fighters have been anymore effective than regular fighters but I have not tested this enough.

But at night bombers vs fighter fire seems to be very effective vs non-night fighters. Perhaps this is WAD as any non radar equipped fighter would have to get pretty dang close to a bomber to have a decent shot and at close range the bomber gunners would also be able to get in some licks. Also, I doubt very seriously if there was much deflection fire by either side at night. Just direct approaches with easy lines for defensive fire.

However, the losses to either the bombers or fighters are so far negligable so I don't care much and any fighter does seem to disrupt night attacks with some bombers just turning away.

reducing bomber gun accuracy might help

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 68

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 9:57:29 PM

brian800000

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I'm playing the AI, and their night bombing hasn't been very effective so long as a get some fighters up. I've actually been using some of my more depleted groups with about 6 planes as night fighters because they seem to do a good job of disrupting the attacks.

I'm thinking about personal house rules to keep things in hand:
1) Night bombing of cities: go all out.
2) Night bombing of industry and ports: only when moonlight is greater than 50%.
3) Night bombing of airfields: only when moonlight is greater than 50% and using airgroups on 50% rest.

(in reply to PresterJohn001)

Post #: 69

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 10:17:19 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

...FWIW, the AI Japanese fly "night fighters" pretty much all the time, especialy Nates. If someone can tell me how these crates can find incoming bombers, let alone attack them, I'll listen to arguments that the attack code is too powerful.

Maybe you could speak to the brains trust of the Regia Aeronautica who used CR.42 (biplane) and IIRC Re.2001 (monoplane) as quick fix nightfighters. Both those planes were better than the Nate but their real world results were on a par with your AI Nate results.

A couple of days late, but what the heck, the temptation was too great considering your latest signoff.

Alfred (I'll see your 2009 and raise it to 2006)

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 70

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 10:22:39 PM

oldman45

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If it is decided to change how night bombing works, I really want my para frags back. I think too much damage is done to the runway. Just a quick glance through some books, I couldn't find anyplace where we blasted an airfield like we do in the game. But I did find countless reports where the aircraft were pretty much wiped out. We had it down to a science that when IJAF moved in planes we destroyed most on the ground shortly after they arrived. So as a Japanese player which would you prefer, night time attacks that destroy the planes or day time raids which wipe out the planes?

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Post #: 71

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/26/2011 11:17:38 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Maybe you could speak to the brains trust of the Regia Aeronautica who used CR.42 (biplane) and IIRC Re.2001 (monoplane) as quick fix nightfighters. Both those planes were better than the Nate but their real world results were on a par with your AI Nate results.

Yeahbut, yeahbut, everybody knows that in Italy, "When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie . . ."

"When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool . . ."

"The CR.42 jumps you and shoots your butt down."

OK, I'll work on the rhyming scheme.

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Post #: 72

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 2:11:20 AM

oldman45

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I would keep your day job Bull

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Post #: 73

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 6:41:07 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I would keep your day job Bull

Don't blame me! It's Dino's fault.

(Younger forumites--ask an old person.)

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Post #: 74

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 9:42:18 AM

FatR

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I should repeat, that I don't see much problems with night bombing. It is only truly effective for Allied heavies, and then only when they meet no night CAP. Heavy fighter losses on night CAP are somewhat of a problem, but using armored and tougher fighters, like Toryus, mostly solves it. For example, here's the night bombing results from the last turn in my current PBEM (high level of moonlight):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Ledo , at 65,38
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 20

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
C-47 Skytrain: 1 destroyed on ground

Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Imphal , at 60,40
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 11

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-49-Ia Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Trinkat , at 44,64
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 5

Allied aircraft
A-24 Banshee x 7
SBD-3 Dauntless x 11

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
A-24 Banshee: 1 destroyed (by flak)
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
7 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/A with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Trinkat , at 44,64
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 4

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 19
Wellington Ic x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Airbase supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
6 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/A with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 7

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged (2 bombers destroyed actually, both by fighters)

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
13th Sentai/C with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (2 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

The only situation when night bombing might possibly be overpoweringly strong, from my experience (save for exploitation of mistakes, like an overstacked airfield) is night raids on manpower by massed Allied heavies late in the war. Manpower gets hit even despite fighter interference, and Japanese nightfighters are more or less ineffective against B-29s. But then, that's how it was...

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 75

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 9:57:54 AM

beppi

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From: Austria
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Night Air attack on Derby , at 64,127

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 98 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 25
B-24D Liberator x 18
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-II Dinah: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 3 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 33

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 145 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 42

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 4 destroyed on ground
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 10
Runway hits 18

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 159 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 54 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 19

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 93 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 21

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 3 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 32

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Especially the last attack with, 6 bombers 32 hits = > 50% hitrate and night and 15k feet. Attack was done 6/43 and even if the launch was from a lvl 9 base, two lvl 8 bases would be enough to launch such a raid. Just much to strong currently.

< Message edited by beppi -- 1/27/2011 10:07:49 AM >

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 76

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 10:13:24 AM

FatR

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Well, sorry, but that's what you get for poor play. If you take no countermeasures against a certain sort of attack, and the enemy invests in it heavily, it is reasonable to expect this attack to be effective.

(in reply to beppi)

Post #: 77

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 11:22:10 AM

beppi

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Well, sorry, but that's what you get for poor play. If you take no countermeasures against a certain sort of attack, and the enemy invests in it heavily, it is reasonable to expect this attack to be effective.

I really do not think that "quality" of play has any effect in this case. As i am the allied player here i can ensure you that there was no heavy investment in anything regarding to 4E in this game as they just kill any balance.

Currently i would say 4E are some sort of void zone generators 43+. Get a lvl 9 base somewhere and after 4 weeks crush any Japanese air resistance in a 16 hex radius.

Kill his night fighters during the day with 4E and AF attack, sweep his day fighters during the day at 40k feet or just nuke them during the night.

An as an allied player i state again, >50% hit rate of 4E @ 15k feet during the night is not even overpowered, it is just laughable ....

< Message edited by beppi -- 1/27/2011 11:23:18 AM >

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 78

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 11:30:04 AM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I would keep your day job Bull

Don't blame me! It's Dino's fault.

(Younger forumites--ask an old person.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS6-b7CONDI

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Post #: 79

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 12:02:26 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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Just a note on how fighters found targets in the sky at night.

Remember how in basic training we all learned how far a single lit cigarette can be seen at night? Well, the engines on the planes of those days were belching fire from their exhausts, to the extent some even had in field "deflectors" welded on to prevent night blinding their own pilots.
Of course it stands to reason enemy pilots would be able to see the same light when it presented itself, at a distance.
Some of those planes also used "formation marker lights" on their wings at night of different colors than the navigational lights we are familiar with now..
I believe one of my books said the Japanese used green and white wingtip lights, which Mitschers' planes used to guide them in..

IMHO while a bright moon might aid bomber pilots in this regard, it might hinder the ability of intercepting fighters to see the manifold flames, but the moon glinting off plexiglass might make up for it.

The concept of night interception goes back to WWI, certainly before RADAR.

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Post #: 80

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 12:13:33 PM

Yakface

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FatR.....I think your results, or lack of, are down to weather (4 of the 5 are severe storms or thunderstorms), and the planes involved have pretty small bomb loads.

Heany bombers at low level close bases and massacre aircraft.

(in reply to beppi)

Post #: 81

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 12:35:45 PM

PzB74

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Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
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Me and Andy agreed upon a night bombing rule: City attacks only - airfield attacks are overpowered.
- This will last until an improvement is released in a future patch.

What's your experience with night bombing of ports, is that still overpowered as well?
I've not tried this since early stock...

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Post #: 82

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 12:46:37 PM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB
What's your experience with night bombing of ports, is that still overpowered as well?

I was on the recieving end of a night port strike where 3 Jap bombers put one bomb each in 4 different CVEs. This after the jap bombers had been intercepted by P-61 nightfighters.

It pretty much sums up my view on night bombing of ports.

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In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 83

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 12:54:13 PM

Kaletsch2007

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Joined: 4/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beppi

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Well, sorry, but that's what you get for poor play. If you take no countermeasures against a certain sort of attack, and the enemy invests in it heavily, it is reasonable to expect this attack to be effective.

I really do not think that "quality" of play has any effect in this case. As i am the allied player here i can ensure you that there was no heavy investment in anything regarding to 4E in this game as they just kill any balance.

Currently i would say 4E are some sort of void zone generators 43+. Get a lvl 9 base somewhere and after 4 weeks crush any Japanese air resistance in a 16 hex radius.

Kill his night fighters during the day with 4E and AF attack, sweep his day fighters during the day at 40k feet or just nuke them during the night.

An as an allied player i state again, >50% hit rate of 4E @ 15k feet during the night is not even overpowered, it is just laughable ....

Could not agree more !!!
And we are talking about an airfield attack, which is in theory not 1 big airbase, but several smaller ones.

(in reply to beppi)

Post #: 84

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 1:07:29 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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I'm not sure that the night bombing is overpowered ... I think that the operational losses need to be higher, particularly with low experience units. I beleive it is too easy to get experienced units, so players take this route ahistorically. If the training losses were higher, this would discourage the use and get it more in line with what actually ocurred. Particularly for Allied players where their replacement rates are so low in the early war.

Allied night attacks were effective. BUT, the investment to get there was quite large. It does not appear to me that the requisite investment is being made in game. Right now, a player can get highly effective night bombing developed in '42. If the training losses (operational) were kicked up significantly, this would discourage this tactic until late war.

Let's use some current requirement here to get handle on this. Minimum requirements for most companies is 100 hours of night to even qualify for a job. That's going to take you 60 days if you fly every night to log that exp. Realistically, with weather and everything else, figure 120 days. You are now a green stick that allows you to sit in the right seat. 400 hours later they're going think you are ready to move into the left seat.

OK, there is a war on and so time compression is going to happen, but so are the operational losses. The above numbers would get you approximate daytime operational losses. In game, that is suggesting pilot exp of greater than 80% in night flying (is that even tracked?). Since the war is on, and you rush the training, your operational losses really have to get big for low hour pilots. Like 2% - 5% per mission or more.

You cannot overstate how difficult night VFR flying is. Any pilot will tell you: it is dangerous. What makes it so easy today is all the instruments and radar. However, there is still a lot of night VFR being done, and pilots are lost everyday to it. I work with +10,000 hour pilots who have to routinely fly night VFR. None of them would ever say it was easy. And every year, at least once a year, I have to go to a funeral.

My final thought on this topic is simple: if it were easy everyone would have gone to it in '42. The fact is that it didn't really catch on until '44. Sure the Brits were doing it from '40 onwards. But look at their numbers, the training involved, the pilot experience, their targets, their effectiveness ... GER, SOV, USA, JAP, ITA ... none of the other really picked it up until much later. It wasn't a fashion trend, it needed both time and technology to bring it up. Once units had effective radio guidance (amoung other items) to get them back home safely, night bombing came into being.

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(in reply to Yakface)

Post #: 85

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 1:30:56 PM

YankeeAirRat

Posts: 633
Joined: 6/22/2005
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<edited numerous times to not seem snarky or annoyed> Jeeze Folks. This is either WAD or it will be NERF'd cause a few of you all are unhappy about how either the IJAAF/IJNAF or USAAF/RAF bombers are able to accurately find thier targets at night or able to achieve a CEP of like half an inch with a stick of bombs. So we NERF the bombers and then neither the fanbois are happy cause the B-17/24/29's can't get through to roll back the Japanese industrial base, meanwhile on the otherside the Japanese aircraft can't seem to drop a stick of bombs on allied targets or even put a torpedo in the water the against a bright red barn.

Why can't we just accept that this is a dang game that is doing its best to simulate combat based on someone's rating system for platforms/people/supplies suck/weather/other things. If you want a game that will replay the 2nd World War where all the player has to do is just make the same selections as the real life people, then go and find one (if not then build your own). I won't buy anything like that because it is boring. I would rather have this game with all its blemishes, mainly because I love the challenge of trying to do things differently.

Is it wrong that I decided to try and build up a bunch of level 9 airfields in places and then stack as many 4e bombers (if I am the allies), NO! It is wrong that I train all of them so thier experience levels are 100 to the 10th power for night bombing? I then turn around and just terrorized all the Japanese air bases around me for a while so I can do combat ops? NO! It is how I think would be the best strategy to win in that sector. So if I get my butt handed to me in another sector cause of this, then so be it. That is how I am playing my game.

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Post #: 86

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 1:40:31 PM

Kaletsch2007

Posts: 142
Joined: 4/2/2008
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@PaxMondo

Using your arguments, the solution would be:

- start night attacks not before Jan43 (to reflect the technical aspect)
- allow only units with 80+ Exp to conduct such missions

???

Of course the coding of a complete night training und exp routine would do the job even better

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 87

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 1:54:23 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaletsch2007

@PaxMondo

Using your arguments, the solution would be:

- start night attacks not before Jan43 (to reflect the technical aspect)
- allow only units with 80+ Exp to conduct such missions

???

Of course the coding of a complete night training und exp routine would do the job even better

HR testing would confim this. And yes, this is basically the result of what I propose...

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(in reply to Kaletsch2007)

Post #: 88

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 2:23:58 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaletsch2007

@PaxMondo

Using your arguments, the solution would be:

- start night attacks not before Jan43 (to reflect the technical aspect)
- allow only units with 80+ Exp to conduct such missions

???

Of course the coding of a complete night training und exp routine would do the job even better

It would be more realistic to just say no night bombing, how many 80+ experience bomber units will anyone have? And is that 80+ for all pilots? Or just the average? How are you going to moniter/verify it?

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(in reply to Kaletsch2007)

Post #: 89

RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? - 1/27/2011 2:33:26 PM

Nikademus