Slitherine

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sunning themselves while drinking alcoholic spirits and not taking baths

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

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ORIGINAL: dlazov66

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sunning themselves while drinking alcoholic spirits and not taking baths

1. Sunning your self naked toughens your skin so that anything smaller then a 15mm will not penetrate your body
2. Drinking Vodka (or my favorite Scotch) increases your morale and endurance if drunk properly
3. Not taking baths ensures that you will then become waterproofed, as the natural oils in your body will help repel rain and snow

I try follow these concepts to ensure long health and happiness, my wife objects to item number 3 every few days and she won't let me do item number 1 in public anymore.

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I agree with the fact that Soviet air and support artillery units alone could be accounted for the majority of the losses the German force suffered. Therefore the "crack Panzerdivision vs. puny Rifle Division" argument is a moot point.

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ORIGINAL: bwheatley

+1 for dumping detailed combat results to a log file to review later. Then you wouldn't have to run the battle super slow and high detail but if you get a weird result. You could immediately look into the combat log and see whats happened.

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ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
If I need to be concerned about doing a hasty attacks with a well rested, elite Pz Div in WitE in 42 against a sov inf div in the open w/o entrenchment then I guess knowledge is power.

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ORIGINAL: XAAL.

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ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
If I need to be concerned about doing a hasty attacks with a well rested, elite Pz Div in WitE in 42 against a sov inf div in the open w/o entrenchment then I guess knowledge is power.

All this does not make them bullet-proof against 203mm shells....Those heavy guns found their target, nothing extraordinary.
And afaik those Me109 were not equipped with radars able to track every plane flying every hour of the day. Those IL-2 could very well reach their target before being detected or intercepted.

Finally, the soviet inf division retreated and that Pz division sustained few losses, so I still dont get where the problem lies.

+1 for a more detailed combat report that could differentiate kills/diabled/disrupted.
+1 for dumping detailed combat results to a log file to review later.

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Finally, the soviet inf division retreated and that Pz division sustained few losses, so I still dont get where the problem lies.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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ORIGINAL: MechFO
The problem for me is mainly that the relative losses and the combat result don't add up. RETREAT is defined in the manual as a forced displacement, I checked to be sure, and that definition is repeated ad nauseam. So this wasn't a delaying action (which is it's own discussion).

This was by any measure a highly successful defensive action, so it should be a HOLD.

If it really was a RETREAT, then German losses can still be rationalised, but Russian losses are way too low.

It seems to me like you are wrapped up in semantics, I don't think that the distinctions that you are making between a "HOLD", a "delaying action" and a "retreat" are necessarily valid.

The Sovs retreated, so I don't see why it should be a HOLD? And why couldn't a successful delaying action be shown in the game as a retreat? Delaying actions generally do involve moving backwards under enemy pressure, not staying in place.

Finally, I don't understand why everyone considers these Sov losses so unbelievably low. As stated in a previous post, these turns are a week long...how do we know that the Russians did not retreat at night, or in the fog? As far as I know, clear weather for a weekly turn does not mean sunshine 24/7...

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.

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ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.

Maybe for a short period of time. But the game scale is a week. No leg infantry without AT can successfully delay for a week against a combined arms team, with substantial tanks, as the 101st Airlanding learned when they developed their then new AT doctrine in 1975. We went through them like crap through a goose when it was tested in the piney woods of the Florida panhandle. My tank company alone overran two full airborne battalions, and the controlers had to pause the war when I got to less than a mile from the 101st TOC. We started at daylight and it was not yet noon. They then had four hours to redeploy to make another go of it. Nevermind, we overran another BN by dark. Three days later, and two days before it was suppsed to end

Sure it wasn't real, but it was a close as can be done without real bullets. The commander of the 101st even admitted that "they had more work to do" with their doctrine. No s***.

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.

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ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

No problem. Won't work every time. I am just trying to point out that it CAN happen in real life.

For all we know the hasty attack did not start until day 6-7 of the week. Sunday the Russian unit is spotted, the recon sits in a REMF inbox until Tuesday when it is finally sent to Army and down the chain of command. Movement starts on Wednesday night, hasty on Thursday, which for some reason has issues. Not enough fuel made it front, the combat trains took that left instead of right and is now in the div next to you rear area. On Friday, you are ready to go again only to find the enemy has pulled back 10 miles. Plausible and could happen. Maybe it did. I know danged well it could and does happen all the time even today. I remember moving road signs around in Germany and mixing units up like no tomorrow.

I would love to have 1 day turns. But as a WITP guy, it would not be horrible, but prefer the longer turn time.

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ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Well if 20 German Me 109 vs 10 Hurricans and 20 Il-2 can give the Sov some sort of incredible air superiority and air attack strength in 1942.. what happens in later when sov are flying 50 or more of Il-2s?

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I have to laugh how many of you have twisted and morph'd this post into some other than what it was questioning. That's fine you want to goof on other people's legitimate concerns that's on you.

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I've still yet to see any proof in the context of the east front that this battle outcome could have occurred. So I guess since nobody can produce it, they just dance around and make fun of the thread starter like a bunch of immature children.

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.

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ORIGINAL: amatteucci

Well, it's he who makes a claim has the onus of the proof.
So it's up to the OP to bring evidence of a game engine problem. As long as we have no evidence of German Panzer units routinely failing to dislodge unentrenched Rifle Divisions, I think it's premature to claim that the game is broken.

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Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

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Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.

...hasty attacks where we're currently likely to get, at best, a 2:1 or 3:1 casualty ratio no matter how many mobile forces are involved, with the Soviet losses usually being a few hundred. Considering that, in theory, CV should only be halved for hasty attacks, mobile units are significantly underperforming in general.

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.

Having glanced over your AAR with NN, James took far bigger swathes of the map vs me, and far sooner, than you did against NN. I can't comment on the casualties though. I do think you played too conservatively on some occasions (I merely glanced over the AAR). On turn 9 NN formed good lines vs you, I was simply never able to form anything resebling a line or even a checkerboard vs James.

Perhaps I am just that much worse player than NN? However I don't think so. I think you, and everybody who thinks Axis are handicapped in this game should play vs Jamiam then come back with a reassesment.

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.