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Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 10:30:00 PM

PzB74

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Take a look at this list (kewl site btw

)

I guess some of the aces on the list claimed lots of kills in China before WWII started in the Pacific, but still.
In all my WitP / AE games I've never managed to compile anything near such an impressive ace list.
Anyone that can show to something similar?

It's possible that A2A combat in WitP AE is still bloodier than in real life, thus making it harder to survive long enough to claim 30+ kills.
What do you think?

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Post #: 1

RE: Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 10:43:32 PM

Yakface

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It's recognised that Japanese fighter pilots' kills are over claimed.

From a purely statistical sense, changing the bloodiness of aircombat would not have an effect on the peak level of kills. Less bloody, pilots last longer, but don't make as many kills in any given time period. More bloody, pilots get more kills in a shorter period, but don't survive as long.

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Post #: 2

RE: Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 10:45:30 PM

PaxMondo

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Wow ... 200?!!!?!!!

OK, nothing even close ... ever...yet.

New goal: but boy is that a HIGH bar to attain. 200??!?

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 11:17:09 PM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Take a look at this list (kewl site btw )

I guess some of the aces on the list claimed lots of kills in China before WWII started in the Pacific, but still.
In all my WitP / AE games I've never managed to compile anything near such an impressive ace list.
Anyone that can show to something similar?

It's possible that A2A combat in WitP AE is still bloodier than in real life, thus making it harder to survive long enough to claim 30+ kills.
What do you think?

Unfortunately, Japan had no effective system for verifying the validity of pilot claims. The High command did not officially track individual successes though units maintained records of the claims. I believe Anabuki was the only Japanese pilot to be given an award while still alive for his kills.

Chez

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VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

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Post #: 4

RE: Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 11:21:21 PM

FatR

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In AE aces for any side rarely rack much above 20 kills. Even against AI, it seems.

In RL experience apparently played a greater part in pilot survival).

As about high scores, Axis pilots on both sides in Eurasia scored more during WW II, because they started the war with technical superiority and ended it in target-rich environments). Allied pilots, by the time Allies gained upper hand in air warfare, tended to outnumber their enemies too much for an individual pilot to meet enough enemy planes during his war career.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/30/2011 11:28:25 PM

PzB74

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Much sense in all comments!

I concur that elite experience status should lend more weight towards pilot survival FatR...
Aces like Sakai had a knack for getting their shot up rides back home again and return to the air.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 12:10:04 AM

wildweasel0585

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one rule of the air is: You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

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Post #: 7

RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 5:19:22 PM

Panther Bait

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Germany and Japan also seemed to let their aces stay in combat until they got killed or the war ended, although in Germany you could get promoted to the point where you didn't fly as much.

I'm not sure about the UK, but the US tended to rotate their aces back to non-combat areas more often and sometimes into a training role.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 6:58:25 PM

m10bob

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As in WW1., we armchair generals really need to look at the kinds of planes shot down..

For instance, a lot of von Richtofens' planes were FB2's and BE2's, RE8's, planes vastly under-powered, under-armed and not even fighters in many cases.

Sakai shot down old planes like Curtiss Hawk biplanes in China flying a Claude (very good plane for its' day), before going against Brewsters, P 39's, and the like, until being shot down by a rear firing gunner in a plane he thought was a single seater from what he thought was a position of advantage..

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 7:05:57 PM

Puhis

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I think Sakai got only one kill in China.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 10:10:01 PM

crsutton

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I would rather have an average pilot in a corsair than an ace pilot in a zero.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 11:03:52 PM

Brady

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The source material for the list contains some good reading:

Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1998
Aircraft of the Aces Legends of World War 2, Tony Holmes, 2000
Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1997
Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II, Ikuhiko Hata, Yasuho Izawa, 1989

The later two I own and their is a lot of info on the units and even more on the traing and other stats on the men.

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 11:05:35 PM

PzB74

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Yeah, the list and web site in general looked very credible!
May look for some of those titles at Amazon....

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RE: Jap Aces - 1/31/2011 11:18:12 PM

LeeChard

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I've always understood Nishizawa to be Japan's high scoring ace at 80+ and even that is subject to poor verification.
By the way Sakai's book 'Samurai' is an excellent read.

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Post #: 14

RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 7:59:39 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

The source material for the list contains some good reading:

Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1998

Aircraft of the Aces Legends of World War 2, Tony Holmes, 2000

Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1997

Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II, Ikuhiko Hata, Yasuho Izawa, 1989

�The later two I own and their is a lot of info on the units and even more on the traing and other stats on the men.

I have the latter two also along with the first one. I also have "Ki-43 Oscar Aces of World War II" by Hiroshi Ichimura and "Imperial Japanese Naval Aviator 1937-1945" Osamu Tagaya. Sakaida's and Ishimura's books give fairly good detail about Japanese aces including detailing most of their victories and how and where they died. Tagaya's book is a general but decent study of the recruiting, training, equipping and basing of naval aviators along with the tactics used.

Chez

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 8:21:57 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Much sense in all comments!

I concur that elite experience status should lend more weight towards pilot survival FatR...
Aces like Sakai had a knack for getting their shot up rides back home again and return to the air.

experience in AE clearly leads to more pilot survival in that experienced pilots get their damaged planes home more easily. The losses of my 70 skilled (high experience - means exp above 60) squadrons A2A are far lower than my losses of 70 skilled (low experienced - means base experience of around 40 after training) as both suffer the same number of damaged fighters during A2A and both seem to suffer the same number of ac shot down during A2A (that�s when the skills seem to count and these are the same) but then the low exp squadrons suffer more ac lost on the way home or during landing while the high experienced pilots seem to get home and perhaps only have their fighter been written off. It seems to work quite well in this respect.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 8:53:06 AM

frank1970

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How "underpowered" was a Zero compared to a Corsair?
Do you claim, that US Aces were only shooting down secondclass fighters and therefore should not be some kind of elite, too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

As in WW1., we armchair generals really need to look at the kinds of planes shot down..

For instance, a lot of von Richtofens' planes were FB2's and BE2's, RE8's, planes vastly under-powered, under-armed and not even fighters in many cases.

Sakai shot down old planes like Curtiss Hawk biplanes in China flying a Claude (very good plane for its' day), before going against Brewsters, P 39's, and the like, until being shot down by a rear firing gunner in a plane he thought was a single seater from what he thought was a position of advantage..

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 9:01:50 AM

Erkki

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Real problems for Zero was the lack of manoeuvrability at high speeds. It's ailerons were narrow, subject to compressibility at speeds above 400kmph-ish IAS, and the situation was not much better with the elevators and rudder. This was not so much of an issue against equally fast or slower planes (Wildcat, P-40, P-400, Hurricane, Buffaloes) as the A6M still had superior climb, acceleration and low speed rate of turn as well as lowest stall speed of them all. Man on man the Zeke is one of the best fighters of WW2.

But against much faster aircraft that also had better roll and initial high-speed turn(like corsair and hellcat) there was not much to do. The Zeke cant catch them and force them to fight on its terms. If attacked itself, it cant roll out of the attack or really even turn into a bounce without giving at least a bad firing position. Should a Zeke itself catch a Hellcat in a dive, the F6F will do "Focke-Wulves", escape using roll and easy turn combined.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 11:59:18 AM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

How "underpowered" was a Zero compared to a Corsair?
Do you claim, that US Aces were only shooting down secondclass fighters and therefore should not be some kind of elite, too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

As in WW1., we armchair generals really need to look at the kinds of planes shot down..

For instance, a lot of von Richtofens' planes were FB2's and BE2's, RE8's, planes vastly under-powered, under-armed and not even fighters in many cases.

Sakai shot down old planes like Curtiss Hawk biplanes in China flying a Claude (very good plane for its' day), before going against Brewsters, P 39's, and the like, until being shot down by a rear firing gunner in a plane he thought was a single seater from what he thought was a position of advantage..

You missed my point 100%.

Read Saburo Sakai's book. Even he remarks on the poor quality of the planes they encountered for the first months of the war in the DEI and northern Australia..
He did not however detract from the allied pilots in any way.
The OP and some of the following posters were remarking on the inflated claims of some of the Japanese pilots.

My comment was that before looking at victory claims, (like Erick Hartmann,s 352, for instance), one might guage the type of plane that was shot down, the odds of the individual battle.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/1/2011 12:15:54 PM >

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 12:14:52 PM

Erkki

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Hartmann might be a bad example, because he scored all his victories in a Bf 109 G-6 against mainly low-flying assault aircraft and equal or nearly equal fighters, in the end of the war superior. The pilots flying those fighters werent the all-greentags the V-VS was in 1941, either. And in just the 18 last months of the war. Extremely lucky, extremely talented, maybe.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 1:06:06 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

It's recognised that Japanese fighter pilots' kills are over-claimed.

From a purely statistical sense, changing the bloodiness of aircombat would not have an effect on the peak level of kills. Less bloody, pilots last longer, but don't make as many kills in any given time period. More bloody, pilots get more kills in a shorter period, but don't survive as long.

One big reason for this was that Japanese pilots assumed their foes A/C were as lightly constructed as their own. When they inflicted damage that would have destroyed their Claude, Nate, Zero, or Oscar..., they believed that the Tomahawk or Hurricane or Buffalo or Wildcat would go down (they were probably amazed it hadn't blown up).

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 2:00:53 PM

frank1970

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Howfar is it important, which quality the shotdown aircraft was? US pilots used hit and run tactics. In how far ist it a hint of the skill of a pilot to do this?
Isn�t it harder to do your kill in a turning fight? and would those "lowquality" planes run or circle?

As I see it, the quality of the enemy plane is of no importance, if you can surprise the pilot, which is, what most pilots did in both WWs.

And overclaiming of shot down planes isn�t a Axis only problem. US B17s claimed much too much German fighter shot down. Not to speak of the overclaims of Allied (British) fighter bombers.
So I really don�t get, what you are speaking about.

- All pilots overclaimed their victories
- most kills resulted from surprise attacks (therefore quality of enemy plane not interessting)

Maybe I didn�t get what you wanted to say, English is not my native tongue, but I think I got you quite well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

How "underpowered" was a Zero compared to a Corsair?
Do you claim, that US Aces were only shooting down secondclass fighters and therefore should not be some kind of elite, too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

As in WW1., we armchair generals really need to look at the kinds of planes shot down..

For instance, a lot of von Richtofens' planes were FB2's and BE2's, RE8's, planes vastly under-powered, under-armed and not even fighters in many cases.

Sakai shot down old planes like Curtiss Hawk biplanes in China flying a Claude (very good plane for its' day), before going against Brewsters, P 39's, and the like, until being shot down by a rear firing gunner in a plane he thought was a single seater from what he thought was a position of advantage..

You missed my point 100%.

Read Saburo Sakai's book. Even he remarks on the poor quality of the planes they encountered for the first months of the war in the DEI and northern Australia..
He did not however detract from the allied pilots in any way.
The OP and some of the following posters were remarking on the inflated claims of some of the Japanese pilots.

My comment was that before looking at victory claims, (like Erick Hartmann,s 352, for instance), one might guage the type of plane that was shot down, the odds of the individual battle.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 2:17:51 PM

LoBaron

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All nations suffered from overclaiming.

The major difference is that US and Germany used systems to credit kills only if confirmed
by either witnesses and/or later gun camera footage.

The Japanese did not use such a system per default, so kills often were credited on the report
of the pilot only.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 3:49:48 PM

Brady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

The source material for the list contains some good reading:

Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1998

Aircraft of the Aces Legends of World War 2, Tony Holmes, 2000

Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45, Henry Sakaida, 1997

Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II, Ikuhiko Hata, Yasuho Izawa, 1989

�The later two I own and their is a lot of info on the units and even more on the traing and other stats on the men.

I have the latter two also along with the first one. I also have "Ki-43 Oscar Aces of World War II" by Hiroshi Ichimura and "Imperial Japanese Naval Aviator 1937-1945" Osamu Tagaya. Sakaida's and Ishimura's books give fairly good detail about Japanese aces including detailing most of their victories and how and where they died. Tagaya's book is a general but decent study of the recruiting, training, equipping and basing of naval aviators along with the tactics used.

Chez

I have his book as well, he is suposed to have a Vall book coming out soon (or they have been saying so for some time, similar to his Betty book.)

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 4:21:50 PM

barkman44

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He also shot down a couple of mustangs near the end of the war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Hartmann might be a bad example, because he scored all his victories in a Bf 109 G-6 against mainly low-flying assault aircraft and equal or nearly equal fighters, in the end of the war superior.�The pilots flying those fighters werent the all-greentags the V-VS�was in 1941, either. And�in just the 18 last months of the war. Extremely lucky, extremely talented, maybe.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 4:34:26 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Take a look at this list (kewl site btw )

I guess some of the aces on the list claimed lots of kills in China before WWII started in the Pacific, but still.
In all my WitP / AE games I've never managed to compile anything near such an impressive ace list.
Anyone that can show to something similar?

It's possible that A2A combat in WitP AE is still bloodier than in real life, thus making it harder to survive long enough to claim 30+ kills.
What do you think?

The game engine still produces losses on average far bloodier than real life. Better than stock, but still bloodier, particularily in situations with lower DUR planes vs. high firepower fighters in adequate numbers. As for claims.....all sides overclaimed....and all pilots were vulnerable to the same mistakes in the air......having studied day to day air operations for years i lost count of the # of times pilots said they saw planes explode, fall away on fire or even impact the ground or sea and explode yet later postwar research shows no such loss occured. Chris Shores stipulated a "general" read: "general" rule of thumb that overclaims tended to be 2x on average.

Ultimately the only way to get any realistic estimate is to drill down and do the tic-tac.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 5:57:59 PM

inqistor

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Interesting fact is that in Red Army, soldiers got Money Reward for destroying enemy vehicles, so it could mean, that their claims are closest to truth. After all, there was enough "political officers" to check every claim, and "reeducate" anyone, who tried to steal money of "Party".

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 7:18:33 PM

TSCofield

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Overclaiming was common, even in countries that had checks and balances.

If you read Black Cross/Red Star you will find a lot of examples of pilots claiming aircraft shot down that don't correspond to their enemies official loss records. Often claims, even among those countries with good record keeping, was 1.5 to 2x higher than the actual loss rate. Many times an aircraft looked like it was done for only to have it manage to recover. Two pilots routinely claimed the same aircraft. The US had a half kill award but many countries it was all or nothing. THis also led to some double claims.

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 7:26:33 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Interesting fact is that in Red Army, soldiers got Money Reward for destroying enemy vehicles, so it could mean, that their claims are closest to truth. After all, there was enough "political officers" to check every claim, and "reeducate" anyone, who tried to steal money of "Party".

Money rewards tend to increase post-war suspicion on the authenticity of claims. The best example was the AVG in Burma. Being paid cash bounties made them mercenaries and there were rumors of "bought claims" though author Daniel Ford disputes this heavily in his revised edition. Shores is neutral on the topic. Even discounting this completely, being compensated for each confirmed kills can't but influence a pilot's thought processes after the heat of battle. Overclaiming became such an issue there that at the conclusion of the campaign the RAF had to revamp the entire process.

Russian claims, as mentioned (via BC/RS series) were subject to same issues and the 2x (or 3x) rule tended to apply in many situations but not all. Russian and German claims are so disparant that even today there is still healthy debate on the accuracy of summaries such as those in Bergstrom's 3 volumes due to disputes over sources used. Even authors like Glantz sometimes get the gun for being "Pro Soviet" just as past works are accused of being "Pro German"

The Great Patriotic War is your best bet for "Source wars"

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 2/1/2011 7:27:31 PM >

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RE: Jap Aces - 2/1/2011 7:26:52 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

How "underpowered" was a Zero compared to a Corsair?
Do you claim, that US Aces were only shooting down secondclass fighters and therefore should not be some kind of elite, too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

As in WW1., we armchair generals really need to look at the kinds of planes shot down..

For instance, a lot of von Richtofens' planes were FB2's and BE2's, RE8's, planes vastly under-powered, under-armed and not even fighters in many cases.

Sakai shot down old planes like Curtiss Hawk biplanes in China flying a Claude (very good plane for its' day), before going against Brewsters, P 39's, and the like, until being shot down by a rear firing gunner in a plane he thought was a single seater from what he thought was a position of advantage..

You missed my point 100%.

Read Saburo Sakai's book. Even he remarks on the poor quality of the planes they encountered for the first months of the war in the DEI and northern Australia..
He did not however detract from the allied pilots in any way.
The OP and some of the following posters were remarking on the inflated claims of some of the Japanese pilots.

My comment was that before looking at victory claims, (like Erick Hartmann,s 352, for instance), one might guage the type of plane that was shot down, the odds of the individual battle.

I love Sakai's book but everyone has to remember that it is not a work of history but a memior. Memiors tend to be fun reads but should not be considered as accurate as primary historical documents. Sakai was writing his book well after the events took place and was also writing his book with English speaking (read American) readers in mind. Considering that, his praise of Allied pilots should be taken with a grain of salt as he may have been just trying to be polite. I am not slamming the book but memiors should be read with the thought that the first person the memiorist (is that a word?

) is serving is the writer himself. A good example would be Genda's memiors which were used to back up a lot of history works but has come under a lot of fire in recent years.

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Post #: 30