What level to set AI for newbs?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> What level to set AI for newbs?

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What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 11:24:21 AM

obvert

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Just in my first game. The AI is set to historical, and I'm already dominating as Allies in May 42. (I have played a few WITP games, but new to AE). It hasn't been able to invade Java, hasn't even gone for Palembang, left the Solomons alone completely, and the KB just disappears for a month at a time before attacking anything. Doesn't seem exactly 'historical' so far. I am even trying to entice it out, trying to see how much those CVs could change certain plans and ops, but it has only steamed around Java a few times, wreaking havoc with the already decimated Dutch airforce.

I want play to best resemble the conditions I will meet in a PBEM, at least in individual combat results if not in strategic abilities.

Should the AI be set to most difficult setting? Will it cheat more, and produce unlikely situations? Will any of its individual units be stronger in combat if on the most difficult settings?

Anything else I'm not thinking to even ask?

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 11:31:26 AM

pmath

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The AI will not resemble human play. Hardest level comes closest and yes it will cheat.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 11:49:02 AM

LoBaron

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The problem is not that historical difficulty is worse for PBEM training than harder settings, the problem is that with
a bit of experience you can outsmart the AI on a tactical level day by day (for example in air battles
where you get surprised only on very rare occasions) which soon leads to disproportional losses for the AI.

The best advice I can give you is from Sardaukars newb AAR:

Play against the AI as you would against a human.

That said, if you know the game already, start a PBEM on a small scenario like Guadalcanal.
You will see the difference at once.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 11:54:07 AM

castor troy

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The AI won�t get smarter with a higher setting, it will only get more advantages in combat, production and with logistics

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 12:23:32 PM

Tullius

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I would start a GC because here you can learn how to organize logistics and manage you forces (e.g. using your Air assets) and discover various aspects of gameplay (replacements). Use the GC as exercise for a PBEM.

There some serious problems with the AI. There some very quesitional design decisions regarding the setup of the initial forces and the AI is at first to aggressive. That pays dividend for the AI when a human follows a "Sir Robin" approach (imo a serious mistake) and hides his carrier in safe places for 6 months but when you fight for delay the AI will suffer badly. Because of a tendency to use the KB as front runner you now always know where the opponent carriers are and because the AI likes forming mini-TF (like 1 CV and 3 DD although BB and CA are overall and were not used properly) the KB is always in real danger. The hyper aggressive style means that the AI starts a lot of operations at the same time but he has not the really the ressources hoping simply that there is nobody who can make any resistance. The historical feeling is soon gone. In my GC i have already (1/31/1942) sunk a CV, CLV, 2 CVE and 2 CS, 2 more CV are serious damaged and that the other 2 CV were lucky to escape. I have also destroyed more planes and ships (!) than the AI. I do not know if i will resume or wait for a patch.

< Message edited by Tullius -- 2/1/2011 12:35:19 PM >

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 12:54:43 PM

obvert

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Are the advantages in combat for the AI things that make individual fighters stronger than actual ability, improve experience of pilots and ships crews, etc?

Or is it mostly just greater numbers of units and things like teleportation of convoys that I've read about in the forums?

Although I think it' s a good plan to start a small scenario to get the feel of surprise and tactics from a PBEM opponent, for the GC I want to know what my units will accomplish based on my training levels, want to learn the logistics, the attention required in certain areas, how to allocate resources and units, and as I said above, how the strong early Japanese advantage manifests in various theaters. I would like to play Japan, but I'm starting with Allies to get the feel and so as not to have to deal with production as well.

For example, I know that with quick movement of forces I could beef up areas like Java and Burma, but the AI hasn't been aggressive enough to highlight the dangers of those strategies and how my units could be stranded behind lines. Just to throw this out there, are the 1500 of ground units in Batavia and the 800 in Soerbaja, both at almost fort level 5, a waste? If I keep the airfields open and keep shuffling fighters in, could I hold this even against a human player?

Thanks for your thoughts. I can't imagine starting this game without these forums!

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 1:06:11 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Just in my first game. The AI is set to historical, and I'm already dominating as Allies in May 42. (I have played a few WITP games, but new to AE). It hasn't been able to invade Java, hasn't even gone for Palembang, left the Solomons alone completely, and the KB just disappears for a month at a time before attacking anything. Doesn't seem exactly 'historical' so far. I am even trying to entice it out, trying to see how much those CVs could change certain plans and ops, but it has only steamed around Java a few times, wreaking havoc with the already decimated Dutch airforce.

I want play to best resemble the conditions I will meet in a PBEM, at least in individual combat results if not in strategic abilities.

Should the AI be set to most difficult setting? Will it cheat more, and produce unlikely situations? Will any of its individual units be stronger in combat if on the most difficult settings?

Anything else I'm not thinking to even ask?

Others will do the traditional bashing of the AI. I play the AI and enjoy it. I'm half through a second GC as the Allies.

Something sounds fishy about your experience. I've never not had the AI try for Java, Palembang, and at least Rabaul. It is hyper-aggressive about those targets. (I play on Historical too as I don't like the supply advantages the AI gets on harder settings.) I'm wondering if you have a glitch somewhere that prevented the proper AI scripts from firing.

The AI does not always set up aggressive carrier TFs after the early moves because it lacks escorts. Scenario 2 helps a bit with this, but you probably won't see the types of varied carrier moves a human player would try. But the AI doesn't often use carriers to go after the targets you say it has ignored, except, sometimes, Java. Nor, despite their sexiness, do you need to fight the carriers to win the war and the game.

If you don't think you're having fun you should re-start. Try a Scenario 2 game. See if you get the same sorts of non-aggressive AI by the end of January 1942. If you do, you might try a re-install and re-patch. (You have patched, right?)

Let us know what happens.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 1:17:40 PM

obvert

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Thanks Bullwinkle. I did the latest patch, (not the Beta), and it's not that it hasn't tried a bit, but just not as I would expect. I had well trained Banshees there fairly early, and took out some TFs with those, and AI only sent a mini-CV TF to help. I took out a good many troops on ships in Jan-Feb with air and PT Boats, a few sacrificial DD squads. Then in March it brought the KB to run circles at Soerbaja and Batavia, while taking Medan, and it kept hitting PTs when it would try to bombard ports, which may have messed up the plans a bit?

I did peek early, just to get the feel of how quick the movements were through December, but haven't looked to the Dark Side since, and it's all seeming a big mystery. Maybe I messed up the scripts there?

I thought it would send everything when I took Tulagi in January, (which I know I shouldn't be able to do), but again, just a small CVE TF which went down under 1000 pounders.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 2:03:12 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Thanks Bullwinkle. I did the latest patch, (not the Beta), and it's not that it hasn't tried a bit, but just not as I would expect. I had well trained Banshees there fairly early, and took out some TFs with those, and AI only sent a mini-CV TF to help. I took out a good many troops on ships in Jan-Feb with air and PT Boats, a few sacrificial DD squads. Then in March it brought the KB to run circles at Soerbaja and Batavia, while taking Medan, and it kept hitting PTs when it would try to bombard ports, which may have messed up the plans a bit?

I did peek early, just to get the feel of how quick the movements were through December, but haven't looked to the Dark Side since, and it's all seeming a big mystery. Maybe I messed up the scripts there?

I thought it would send everything when I took Tulagi in January, (which I know I shouldn't be able to do), but again, just a small CVE TF which went down under 1000 pounders.

In my two games in one the AI sent the mini-KB to help at Java, and in the other it sent a 3-CV TF to help. In the first game, with early AI scripts, the mini-KB did circles around Java, but in the second game the 3-CV TF did not. It was very effective at tying down Soerbaja air to allow the invasion to happen (it stayed to the east on the DEI side.) Andy Mac, the "AI Scipt King" on the dev team, did adjust some scripts since launch. You could search for his posts in the forum archives.

I'm not sure where you're getting lots of PT boats. You have the small RN squadron that starts at Hong Kong, but USN PTs are thin that early in the war. And sinking TFs with Banshees shouldn't make the AI stop trying for an objective that's scripted as vital. If anything, complaints have been that it tries too long at too great a loss for those. And Palembang should be one of those.

Taking Tulagi, or any objecitve YOU think is vital, isn't going to matter unless the scripts are written to make it matter. There are trigger bases in the scripts that will get you a BIG response. I won't ruin your fun by listing any, but I think it's safe to say Tulagi isn't one of them. It's one of the limits of a scripted AI--it can't respond on the fly to anything too ahistoric. As you say, going aggressive in the Solomons in January 1942 is ahistoric.

There is a menu of scripts though, and if you restart you'll get a different random draw from the list. In my two games I've seen significantly different AI behavior in multiple sub-theaters. But I haven't seen what you describe, so I can't say why you're seeing those AI moves. I'd try a restart, and pay close attention to the set-up switches. For example, don't randomize the reinforcement arrival dates and see if that matters.

As for difficulty level, to my knowledge the devs have never released a comprehensive list of what changes between Historical, Hard, and Very Hard. Players have tried to infer over the years since WITP, but take those estimates with a grain of salt. I don't believe device effectiveness is adjusted in the combat routines for example. The AI doesn't have prep point restrictions (I believe this has been confirmed by the team), and it can teleport ships wherever it needs to in order to form TFs. Mostly, on the harder difficulties, the way supply works is changed. On Very Hard it has been reported that the AI forces don't use supply, so sieges are impossible. You have to take everrything by frontal assault. I personally think that makes the whole theater distorted. The main Allied thrust of the war was to ruin the Japanese economy and prevent them from resisting, not to kill every last Japanese soldier and sailor.

So far as I know the difficulty setting does not influence which scripts get chosen out of the list. The scenario selection does. Read what each scenario changes in the scenario notes, and try a different one on a re-start. If you REALLY want a harder AI experience, try the Ironman scenario. Many players have reported that it is a tough, tough challenge. I have not tried this one myself, but will after I try a game as the Japanese.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 2:41:46 PM

PaxMondo

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My experience is that both Scenario 2 and Ironman are MUCH better for the AI. From what I have gleaned from Andy's comments, it is due to the fact that more units are available for the AI to make better naval force compositions. So, I would agree with Bullwinkle's suggestion to play either of those to get a better AI experience.

It still won't compare to a PBEM. Really. The AI cannot "see" a fubar that you make and take advantage of it the way a human player will. However, playing against the AI will get you used to what forces come when and what force at a minimum you will need to take objectives. When you play PBEM just be aware that those will be minimums.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 4:30:59 PM

USSAmerica

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It seems to me that the harder difficulty levels effectively give the AI strategic advantages, but nothing really to help it tactically. It doesn't make the AI a harder challenge, just lets it be a little bit challenging for a longer time in the game.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 6:03:53 PM

inqistor

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You should actually change the sides. Allies can not do much at war beginning, so AI play will be overall more humanlike.
With time AI will get enough equipment, so your offensives will stall.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 7:01:00 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

It seems to me that the harder difficulty levels effectively give the AI strategic advantages, but nothing really to help it tactically.� It doesn't make the AI a harder challenge, just lets it be a little bit challenging for a longer time in the game.

If it is true that the highest level removes supply as a factor in combat that is a huge tactical advantage. It is also a strategic advantage if that means fewer/no supply convoys must run to the defense perimeter, and/or few/no resource/fuel convoys must run to the HI. It changes the whole war, but it also changes each battle.

If it is true.

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 7:38:46 PM

Tullius

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quote:

It changes the whole war, but it also changes each battle.

But it will not prevent such events like here

quote:

Day Time Surface Combat, near Oosthaven at 49,96, Range 23,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2
CV Soryu, Shell hits 8, heavy fires
CV Zuikaku, Shell hits 1
DD Isokaze, Shell hits 2
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Inazuma, Shell hits 2
DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Kuretake, Shell hits 1
DD Karukaya

Allied Ships
CL Danae, Shell hits 2
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 1
DD Vampire, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Vendetta

What inquistor noted is called by some programers as "Illusion of Intelligence" and Matt Buckland (Programming Game AI by Example) gives a similar example:

quote:

Because the illusion of intelligence is subjective, sometimes this takes very little effort at all. The designers of the AI for Halo ... discoverd their playtesters could be fooled into thinking t he AI agents were more intelligent by increasing the hit points required to kill them

The same seems to be true for the Iroman scenario. The AI is the same but you have to deal with more units.

< Message edited by Tullius -- 2/1/2011 10:02:59 PM >

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RE: What level to set AI for newbs? - 2/1/2011 8:56:27 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tullius

The same seems to be true for the Iroman scenario. The AI is the same but you have to deal with more units.

There are a lot of facotrs that go into your combat results I snipped. But yes, I think Andy has said that the Ironman has more units available to the Japanese. But I think he's also written more scripts, and more aggressive scripts to use them. In particular, without a lot of escorts, the AI doesn't use the carriers nearly as much as a human might. Ironman, as I understand it, really bulks up the escort bank.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/1/2011 9:06:02 PM >

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