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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc

 
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:26:50 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

ComradeP, the complaint against the +1 is invalid.

The combat result that you call cheesy in the AAR where 90,000 russians pushed out your panzer and motorized divisions was due to the doubling of final CV.  The +1 bonus was then the cherry on top but without the doubling the attack would have failed.  Your opponent got lucky there.  Without the doubling that attack had no chance to succeed.

The string of combats the forced out the 7th Panzer division was a combination of your fault and divine intervention.  Your fault because they had no ammunition after the first attack.  The remaining attacks are consistent only with the HQ sent support units firing (possibly some minor fire from your panzer division but I am dubious of even that).  Then his CV was tripled-divine intervention-...can someone official comment on how that is possible?  If there had been no odd ball modification of the final CV odds due to leadership rolls the attack may have failed since you would have had to loose a lot of squads and tanks for your CV to go from 120 to below 73 to leave the odds at slightly above 1:1 so the +1 would have kicked in.  I'd open a few cathedrals and light some candles over those results myself if I was the soviet player.

But neither result was due to the +1 both were due to the odd ball CV modification that at least so far as I can figure out is a leader check of some sort.  You may have even got the leader modification since it looks like your CV was 16x in that last battle...consistent with his 3xx or so...and the final odds being 3.3 (2.3:1 pre odds adjustment).  Remove those leader modifications and the final battle would have had CVs of (you)80, (him) 73 and an adjusted final odds of 1:1.1 HOLDES.  If you had had ammunition to shoot for the full turn the first and last attacks would have looked similar.



I'm curious is a lot of people complaining about combat units sucking could be attributed to no AMMO. It would be nice to see something in the combat report say LOW AMMO :)
Then people can say oh **** my bad.

(in reply to PMCN)
Post #: 151
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:30:26 PM   
Emx77


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

At the times when I am making a one hex breakthrough, there's a simple reason for it: German mobile unit hasty attacks suck, period. A Rifle division in a hex with 2=8 is in many cases going to stay in that hex, even if you bring a Panzer corps.

Why? Because Soviet units that are hasty attacked by mobile units rarely rout, usually retreat and usually don't suffer significant losses.



I think that you are making mistake by attacking first line defence with hasty attacks. You need to make breach using delibrate attacks with infantry divisions first. Then exploit the at least 3 hexes wide gap with mobile units and make hastly and/or delibrate attacks with Pz divisions on second line units. Also, if you find that Soviets have a solid defense line with 2=8 units try to manevour in order to find weak spot. It is very important to to keep your opponent off balance and not let him to dug in and form =8 defense. With constant move around you will force him to leave fortified positions to avoid encirclement. All in all, I do pretty similiar operations as JAMiAM described with a lot of success. I don't even want to think what would happened to Soviets if I played without swamp *2 defence rule.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 2/1/2011 10:31:27 PM >

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 152
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:35:14 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Something just doesn't feel right about the balance of forces in Jan '42. I have too many divisions and too many options for manoeuvre, IMO. I don't really mind (it's fun) but unless the Axis turns around and kicks me back to the Volga or Moscow come summer, I will be sorely disappointed.


+1

(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 153
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:36:37 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What seems fishy is that Von Manstein, one of the best German leaders and better than all Soviet leaders aside from Zhukov, managed to add, at best, 20 CV to the Panzer division. And then some mediocre Soviet leader, or possibly Rokossovsky, effectively quadrupled the Soviet CV? It just doesn't add up.



Rokossovsky was an amazing general and should have remained zhukovs superior if not for his unwarranted stint in a gulag where he had some teeth pulled out. Just cause. He actually cared for his troops more so then zhukov too which was impressive in a soviet leader of the time.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 154
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:37:01 PM   
Emx77


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From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

This game was my first CG, and so I have made a few mistakes along the way, as well. I didn't understand just how important morale is in the game for the first few turns, and didn't maximize morale gain for my units, not morale hits for my opponent. This can have a cascading effect, as the game progresses, and has made me weaker than I could be, and him stronger.



JAMiAM may I ask you to elaborate this thing about units morale in more detail? Or at least to give us link to a thread where this is discussed. Thank you in advance.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 155
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 10:38:34 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

One could test this in the editor, no? Put one Axis division in clear next to one soviet division and assign Manstein to one side and Rokossovky to the other. Then make a hotseat 'game' and have each side attack 10 times, see how CVs faired.


+1 whos gonna do it?

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 156
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 11:02:08 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Your posts shows that you really need to play against a competent Soviet opponent to see that the situation you describe is highly utopian.


That will be your job in our game...

In the meantime, and in my opponents collective defense, I will say that none of them are incompetent. They possess varying levels of competence, and have utilized a variety of defensive techniques, none of which have been able to stop very similar breakthroughs throughout the summer and early fall of 1941. Therefore, I contend that your evaluation of "highly utopian" is in error.

When we resume our game, I am willing to be proven wrong, if you can manage it..

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

At the times when I am making a one hex breakthrough, there's a simple reason for it: German mobile unit hasty attacks suck, period. A Rifle division in a hex with 2=8 is in many cases going to stay in that hex, even if you bring a Panzer corps.


Occasionally, a 2=8 will stay in place. However, properly outfitted Pz Korps stacks, with directly assigned SUs and GS-on, will pop them 9 out of ten times. Once retreated, then you are dealing with a 1=1, or 1=2, which will soon rout.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'd really like to cause more casualties to, but I can't.

Why? Because Soviet units that are hasty attacked by mobile units rarely rout, usually retreat and usually don't suffer significant losses.



I beg to differ. Even if they don't rout the first time, they will after repeated retreats. In my opinion, this is where you're not taking advantage of your mobility and following up with the successive attacks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Units that do rout usually recover and reappear in the line again next turn. You'll notice that there's usually a large pile of Soviet routed units near my breakthrough areas. At the start of my next turn, very few are still routed.



If your penetrations are deep enough, then you should be displacing the routed units further from your critical hexes. In any event, when they recover, they are usually at an unready status, and unable to both move and attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'm facing a checkerboard or wall of units, and my mobile units (despite what their CV's might indicate) don't have the power to remove many of them from their hexes.


I've been facing the same thing, with a competent set of opponents, yet my results are much different. Why? We are playing the same game, so the obvious answer seems to be that we are doing things differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

When the infantry attacks, the Soviets might suffer around 2500-3000 losses and the units might rout, but there are always more.


Indeed, which is why you absolutely need to leverage your superior mobility and firepower to multiply this effect as much as you can. There are always more...to attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

A crossing like the one you made, at just one point, can fairly easily be contained. The speed with which you've advanced with limited mobile units just shows that your opponent has a thing or two to learn about defence in depth and maintaing reserves. Crossings in one area are generally a bad idea.


The crossing of the Dnepr cannot be contained with the forces that are available to him in the immediate area. I have reserves that will be *pouring* through the gap. Not dribbling through a one-hex opening. I have interior lines within the exploitation region and he has too much frontage to try to contain it. If he does not displace his lines, he will be pocketed on the following turn.

If the breakthrough was not supported by the northern attacks, then he might be able to *attempt* to contain it, but again, since he has the exterior lines to manage, it would leave me with the initiative to once again cut through and exploit on the next turn with my reserves. Giving him two such bulges to try to contain, will stretch his reserves too thinly, allowing multiple successive encirclements. Counterattacking my bulges will not lead to any result other than keeping his forces close to mine and pocketed, rather than escaping. I've left my opponent a one turn window of opportunity, to either abandon the Kiev pocket en masse, or face a certain encirclement closing on the following turn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As for the second picture: punching two Panzer Groups through what seems to be a poorly held part of the front, without substantial Soviet reserves in the area is child's play as long as there are no protected natural defences in the way. Anyone can do that. A maximum of 10 pocketed divisions also isn't too great for an operation like that.

The objective here was not to pocket 10 divisions. The objective was to force a mass displacement of the enemy, peeling him off a set of natural defensive lines, with minimum casualties to myself. I did this through leveraging concentration of force, and mobility - two of the primary advantages that the Axis have at this stage of the game. I did this against a variety of defensive positions, against a competent player who was dug in, and defending in depth. Though it might not be child's play, it is certainly possible to repeatedly perform these types of operations as the Axis player in 1941. Even against competent Soviet play.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 157
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/1/2011 11:34:06 PM   
raizer

 

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Status: offline 		the i do this, you need to do that thread

flav says notenome is the first soviet player he has seen on the forums that "gets it" as a soviet pusher...I believe him, and therefore, note is a better player than your competent opponents, its like comparing apples and cashews.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 158
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:17:11 AM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

the i do this, you need to do that thread

flav says notenome is the first soviet player he has seen on the forums that "gets it" as a soviet pusher...I believe him, and therefore, note is a better player than your competent opponents, its like comparing apples and cashews.




Wrong and very wrong. I can tell you first hand bwheatley gets it too. Play him if you don't believe me.

(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 159
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:24:56 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

the i do this, you need to do that thread

flav says notenome is the first soviet player he has seen on the forums that "gets it" as a soviet pusher...I believe him, and therefore, note is a better player than your competent opponents, its like comparing apples and cashews.




lol, raizer you need to get out more I guess. My sov opponent was able avoid large pocket and leave counter attack pz units with easy in 41 when he decided. He's starting spr 42 with almost 8 million men. When I asked him his secret, he said it was easy .. just have to keep moving troops out of axis inf range, leave some toekn units in good defense terrain to slow axis down, and keep back cav and tank units to counter if axis push armor to far. Not liking that he was not stressed in 41 and won't be again in 42. I agree with comments about it just not feeling right going into 42.

Also, I don't like the insinuation that ComradeP is some novice axis player and doesn't know what he is doing. I think what you need to take away from this is that even a first time sov player like notename is able stay on top of a WitE experience player. I don't think your evaluation of notename being a genius sov player is the right conclusion. Not saying he isn't a smart player... just not what the trend seems to be for what sov players can accomplish in 41-45 scen.

(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 160
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:33:10 AM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

the i do this, you need to do that thread

flav says notenome is the first soviet player he has seen on the forums that "gets it" as a soviet pusher...I believe him, and therefore, note is a better player than your competent opponents, its like comparing apples and cashews.




lol, raizer you need to get out more I guess. My sov opponent was able avoid large pocket and leave counter attack pz units with easy in 41 when he decided. He's starting spr 42 with almost 8 million men. When I asked him his secret, he said it was easy .. just have to keep moving troops out of axis inf range, leave some toekn units in good defense terrain to slow axis down, and keep back cav and tank units to counter if axis push armor to far. Not liking that he was not stressed in 41 and won't be again in 42. I agree with comments about it just not feeling right going into 42.

Also, I don't like the insinuation that ComradeP is some novice axis player and doesn't know what he is doing. I think what you need to take away from this is that even a first time sov player like notename is able stay on top of a WitE experience player. I don't think your evaluation of notename being a genius sov player is the right conclusion. Not saying he isn't a smart player... just not what the trend seems to be for what sov players can accomplish in 41-45 scen.



Sorry but that sounds like the ideal tactics that the Russians should have pursued during Barbarossa. The fact we are getting a 42 that does not feel like the historical is down to people as the Russians doing the smart moves and not the historical ones.

(in reply to kirkgregerson)
Post #: 161
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:46:13 AM   
raizer

 

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Status: offline 		krik I am following comrades aar and rooting for him -how you glean that I couch comrade as novice is puzzling to me to say the least...-I didnt even mention him in the post you replied to.  I simply repeated flavs comments which i believe, note is  a good player and gets it, in spades.  How does that flame comrades skill?


and abul-wheatly played an amazing game against you-i followed the entire aar, he can bring it as the sovs also

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 162
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:59:57 AM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

krik I am following comrades aar and rooting for him -how you glean that I couch comrade as novice is puzzling to me to say the least...-I didnt even mention him in the post you replied to.  I simply repeated flavs comments which i believe, note is  a good player and gets it, in spades.  How does that flame comrades skill?


and abul-wheatly played an amazing game against you-i followed the entire aar, he can bring it as the sovs also



Ok, well I have utmost respect for ComradeP. I think Kirk just jump a little hard on you because he thought you were putting him down. Glad to hear that is not the case. Because I would have to smack you down if it was..hehe.


(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 163
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 1:22:32 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Well not being able to assimilate casaulties with zeal in not the greatest foundation to debunk people so work away. Anyway I brought up morale because I actually dont think good units are behaving like good units. I will repeat that it is an oversight that you cannot define the intesity of your defense especially given Stallin and Hitler are your relative CiC's. I think that if we are micromanaging a whole array of features surely we should be able to order troops to hold at all costs or retreat when under pressure.


I agree it would be nice to set a threshold you'd like unit to HOLD UNTIL. 100% (To the death)
then have them stand as long as morale and xp will let them.

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 164
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 1:22:58 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

This game was my first CG, and so I have made a few mistakes along the way, as well. I didn't understand just how important morale is in the game for the first few turns, and didn't maximize morale gain for my units, not morale hits for my opponent. This can have a cascading effect, as the game progresses, and has made me weaker than I could be, and him stronger.



JAMiAM may I ask you to elaborate this thing about units morale in more detail? Or at least to give us link to a thread where this is discussed. Thank you in advance.

Hi,

I probably didn't do a good job of explaining it. Also, I don't know if this has been discussed at length in any particular thread. It's more an observation of a nuance of some game mechanics, that I've gleaned from multiple sources and experience.

Anyhow, morale plays a huge part in this game, and I feel it doesn't get as much attention as it should. Probably because it is always lurking behind so many things, and not at the forefront. For example, morale directly influences effective combat strength, movement rates, attrition rates, retreat results, and 1st Winter effects.

What I didn't realize when I started playing the game was this importance and mistakenly lending greater importance to "spoiling" attacks, trying to wear down defending units. This was a big mistake and caused many of my units to lose morale, while allowing my opponent to have his units gain morale. Essentially, with each failed attack, your opponent becomes stronger - not only relatively, but in real terms. Each failed attack also makes your own forces weaker, not just from the loss of components, but from a loss of morale.

What I meant by the effect cascading is that success breeds success, and failure breeds failure. With the invariable exception to the rule, each attack you make should be with a specific purpose in mind, and you should be at least 90% sure that you will win, because if you don't you are increasing the enemy morale and reducing your own. This makes movement more difficult, and your combat strength lower, creating a spiral of fewer opportunities for you to win battles and continue raising your morale, and your opponent's units getting stronger due to their boosted morale. Once you drop below certain thresholds, your movement is affected and this can have a huge effect on keeping up with a fleeing enemy, or the ability to conduct combinations of movement/attack/etc.

Static conditions due to low mobility almost always favor the strategic defender, which in 1941 is the Soviets. My mistake in not realizing that aspect, or nuance, of the game for the first few turns of the campaign from where the screenshots were taken, has put me in a weaker state than I would like. Still, there are many opportunities to "farm" morale points left before the mud hits, snow falls, and the East freezes solid...

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 165
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 2:11:15 AM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
That is weird. With my game i am having a super easy-ish time of beating back panzer corps with rifle corp & cav corp stacks. Seems almost two easy at times. I wonder if it's just how i played the russians thats different? I cared less about making sure my C&C was right in early 42 and more about getting tank and rifle corps so i horded AP's.


Well it is easy to provide a test soviet 42 attack ability.

Demonstration 8 tank corps and 5 tank brigades (This is something like 20 Tank Divisions) attacking against 2 panzer divisions and 1 motorized division. Soviet have almost 3 times more tanks attacking than Germans have defending. Soviet attacking with 4 full stacks.

German losses 512 men, 16 art, and amazing number of 4 tanks.
Soviet Losses 10592 men, 176 art and amazing number of 448 tanks.

If this is result from 4 full Soviet stacks attacking I would like to know how many full Soviet Stacks I need to beat those German Stacks back easily?





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< Message edited by Jakerson -- 2/2/2011 2:15:16 AM >

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 166
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 3:25:49 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		You are taking the term Tank Corps and assuming it's really the size of a corps; the 42a Corps is certainly not even close to it.  It's about 6k men and about 160 tanks, maxed out.  That's not even the size of a full division.  The whole force is about the value of 6-10 tank divisions, not 20.  Also the corps may have absorbed the 25% experience drop from formation; the experience difference between the Germans and Russians may be huge.

I also notice a 70% modifier, apparently from the Russians being from mixed commands.  All this adds up to a slaughter.

(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 167
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 7:36:12 AM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

You are taking the term Tank Corps and assuming it's really the size of a corps; the 42a Corps is certainly not even close to it.  It's about 6k men and about 160 tanks, maxed out.  That's not even the size of a full division.  The whole force is about the value of 6-10 tank divisions, not 20.  Also the corps may have absorbed the 25% experience drop from formation; the experience difference between the Germans and Russians may be huge.

I also notice a 70% modifier, apparently from the Russians being from mixed commands.  All this adds up to a slaughter.



In this demo it is 15 Soviet tank corps against 3 German panzer divisions. All soviet troops in same command now. This is deliberate attack of 5 stacks soviet tank corps. Soviet got lucky and was able to destroy 24 German tanks and 1000 men.

I mean this is supposed to be a counter attack of 1600 soviet tanks. Soviet lost third of their assault forces and this is 541 tanks and 15k men. I could keep up attacking 6 full stacks of soviet tank corps but that doesn’t chance result much. In this game 6 full stacks of Soviet tanks corps this is largest force that soviet can use in counter attack even in theory but in practical even 5 full stacks of tank corps in counter attack is maybe too much.

Soviet have zero counter attack ability against these German uber panzer stacks at 1942 it doesn’t matter if Soviet deploy largest number of tank corps that stack rules allow that is 18 tank corps in the counter attack or have that +1 bonus what some people complain.









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< Message edited by Jakerson -- 2/2/2011 7:39:38 AM >

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 168
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 7:51:59 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Jakerson, sending armor against forts is a losing proposition. You really shouldn't be trying to assault a level 4 fort with tank corps in particular; German panzer units at least have more supporting elements and better combined arms as a unit. The nearest equivalent to that on the Soviet side is the mechanized corps.

The tank corps is an exploitation unit -- it gets battered to pieces in heavy assualts. It's moderately effective counterattacking German panzers in the open if those are overextended, but certainly not fresh and heavily dug in German panzers.

Try this with rifle corps. Better yet, rifle corps and artillery divisions. This is the backbone of the Red Army, and your primary tools for heavy deliberate assaults.





_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 169
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 10:17:25 AM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah Jackerson, your losses probably have a lot to do with forts, which shouldn't be attacked with tanks, and I'm also not seeing sappers.

And Jamiam your spearhead can be isolated by a single counterattack to the Slovakian division, also your supplies are going to have to cross the Dnepr so performance should drop significantly.

As for a 2=8 rifle division, let's see. If we're talking early war, óne panzer division can probably muster up 16CV, but that's a risky proposition, latter you'll need two. If the division is in rough or swamp terrain you'll need double that, which can no longer be reliably achieved with a hasty attack. By september a lot of those panzer divisions are gonna have offensive values in the single digits, which get cut down in half on hasty attacks, if they aren't constantly rested (and very few players rest their panzer divisions). As long as the soviets insist on always placing a unit in contact with the panzers, fatigue will remain high, supplies will be low and attrition will take its toll.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 170
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:48:02 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Jakerson, sending armor against forts is a losing proposition. You really shouldn't be trying to assault a level 4 fort with tank corps in particular; German panzer units at least have more supporting elements and better combined arms as a unit. The nearest equivalent to that on the Soviet side is the mechanized corps.

The tank corps is an exploitation unit -- it gets battered to pieces in heavy assualts. It's moderately effective counterattacking German panzers in the open if those are overextended, but certainly not fresh and heavily dug in German panzers.

Try this with rifle corps. Better yet, rifle corps and artillery divisions. This is the backbone of the Red Army, and your primary tools for heavy deliberate assaults.


Here is test run with level 1 fort it is impossible run test run without forts as even if you move German stack to zero lvl fort hex and press end turn when soviet turn start German already sit inside lvl 1 fort. If you attack against German stack of 3 panzer divs they are always at least lvl 1 fort.

Now I'm attacking with 18 Soviet Tank corps that is 6 full stacks largest possible force Soviet could use in counter attack even in theory only result is that Soviet casualties are even higher than when attacking with 5 stacks in the previous test against lvl 4 forts.

In this run Soviet lose 15k men 1000 tanks this is more than when attacking with 5 tank corps stacks against lvl 4 forts.

German lose 1k men and 32tanks.

I have run these test so many times that I could say that Soviet have zero counter attack ability against these stacks at 1942 summer. Even theoretical maximum force dosent do anything else than increse soviet counter attack casulties. No matter what force combination Soviet use result is always same germans lose 30 tanks if Soviet are lucky and soviet near thousands.









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< Message edited by Jakerson -- 2/2/2011 12:52:55 PM >

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 171
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:48:27 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Those tank corps have a very low CV.

Probably low morale.

Plus 15 Tank Corps under one command is 60 Command Points.

At least DOUBLE over what a FRONT can support inside C&C limits.

My tanks generally are used for pouring thru an open line and beating up defenceless units in the way.

In early 42 they may bash back overextended spearheads to get the Guards Status.

Tanks don't assault level 4 forts

Your example is not very good IMHO

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 172
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:51:22 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Its not impossible to run a test without forts.

As per the manual

A unit may construct fortifications with left over movement points

Its divided per movement points remaining to get a dig value

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Post #: 173
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 12:59:42 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'm still not seeing a problem here, Jakerson. Overloaded command, green tank corps, probably 42a tank corps with the garbage TOE, fresh panzers.

The panzers can be mauled under the right conditions, but not these. Wait for them to overextend themselves. Beyond that, these early tank corps are fragile beasts and rightly so. It takes a while for them to get up to speed. Give them some easy wins (Axis minors are great for this), train them up, wait for their TOE to improve. I can get 10+ CV tank corps by autumn of 42 with some careful management. They will not be amazing in June or July, nor should they be. Historically the early tank corps got mauled. The Germans more or less detroyed three tank armies during Fall Blau in this period. (This is setting aside the cock up at Kharkov, mind you.)






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Post #: 174
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 1:02:45 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Not referring to Jakerson but in general;

I think that currently deliberate attacks by mobile units give very little bang for their buck, so one tries to avoid them, which IMO relegates them to being only useful for exploitation. Infantry units can often retreat from a deliberate attack with limited losses considering the force/mobility disparity.

Consider, in the best case a mobile unit will have 40-50MP's per turn, so a day represents somewhere around 7-8MP's.

A deliberate attack at 16MP's represents around 2+ days worth of movement and combat. Considering the amount of combat that can take place in 2 days, the results are mostly very tame. At least when facing foot mobile units, the end result of a successful deliberate attack should in most cases be at least a ROUT. Given 2+ days of time, and the mobility mismatch, I seriously doubt any Inf unit can expect to execute a successful delaying action in the case of a RETREAT result (if delaying is covered by RETREAT, in the first place).

Another option would be to lower the MP needed for a deliberate attack down to 8-10. This would represent about a days worth of combat, which seems much more reasonable given the present results. This reduction might give rise to the fear that mobile units will become overpowered, but IMO this is overdone. Ammo usage a fatigue should prevent too many attacks by the same unit during any one turn as they will rapidly lose effectiveness.



< Message edited by MechFO -- 2/2/2011 1:04:38 PM >

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Post #: 175
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 1:09:25 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I can get good results from both the Germans and Soviets if I include some mobile units in support of an infantry heavy assault. But yeah, deliberate attacks are really infantry work.

I actually include 1 tank corps in my shock armies, and they do very nicely in this role. Mixed in with a number of rifle corps, they give a good account of themselves.

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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 2:47:17 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

include some mobile units in support of an infantry heavy assault


What do you mean by "in support"? Are you saying reserves will join an assault...on the attack?

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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 2:48:53 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		He means a combined arms attack

Mainly infantry with a tank corps too

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Post #: 178
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 3:08:15 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

And Jamiam your spearhead can be isolated by a single counterattack to the Slovakian division, also your supplies are going to have to cross the Dnepr so performance should drop significantly.


You need to look again. The Slovakian division is the most exposed unit, but if attacked, will retreat toward the HQ stack 2 hexes ESE. Also, between the other units and their zocs, there is no way that any unit in the area can penetrate enough to deny the three units along the east bank of the Sula River supplies. Again, they will be tracing from the HQ stack which had heavy airdrops of fuel and supplies on my turn.


quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome
As for a 2=8 rifle division, let's see. If we're talking early war, óne panzer division can probably muster up 16CV, but that's a risky proposition, latter you'll need two. If the division is in rough or swamp terrain you'll need double that, which can no longer be reliably achieved with a hasty attack. By september a lot of those panzer divisions are gonna have offensive values in the single digits, which get cut down in half on hasty attacks, if they aren't constantly rested (and very few players rest their panzer divisions). As long as the soviets insist on always placing a unit in contact with the panzers, fatigue will remain high, supplies will be low and attrition will take its toll.

I'm not talking one panzer division attacking. Reread my tactics description. I'm talking about entire Pz Korps making attacks, augmented by directly assigned SUs. These stacks generally start out around 40-45 CV at the start of their exploitation attacks, and end up somewhere in the mid 20's by the time they split up and take their defensive positions.

You can tarbaby the outside of my breakthroughs, but what you're missing is that I have substantial reserves inside them, unimpeded by ezoc. Those will be less fatigued, and able to further the exploitation in whatever weak direction will be left. This is where ComradeP and so many other Axis players fail. Their penetrations are too narrow, and/or shallow, to create this operational space for them to be freed up for continuation of the initial breakthrough.

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Post #: 179
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/2/2011 4:10:29 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		JAMiAM: the main difference is that your opponent has a line with little depth, and notenome has a depth of 3 hexes in many areas.

Those attacks I should be launching according to you all cost MP's. If your opponent's divisions rout after 2 or 3 hasty attacks, good for you, but notenome's divisions generally don't.

What happens when a Rifle division is attacked in a hasty attack is that it loses, if you're lucky, between 750 and 1000 men, and retreats. Even though a Rifle division (and infantry in general) has very little mobility, and would thus would be under very significant pressure to stage an organized withdrawal, there's no bonus or modifier when facing a combined arms or mobile unit attack. It just retreats. notenome's divisions tend to retreat 3 or 4 times before routing, if attacked by hasty attacks. They do mostly rout when attacked with a deliberate attack.

In both of the screenshots you posted, there are no Soviet reserves or any depth in the Soviet line. No wonder you blew through them.

In my game with notenome, that pile of routed units at the end of my turn rallies in his turn, is back in the line by my turn, and is routed again.

No Rifle division has shattered after the opening turn, not a single one. They all retreat orderly or rout, where the odd thing is that the divisions that retreat often take higher losses as they can be attacked more than once.

Mobility might be the Axis' greatest asset, it's also very easy for the Soviets to limit it, primarily because the Axis can't really destroy Soviet divisions without encircling them or keep them routed.

I also still seem to be facing a bug that was supposedly fixed, as my Panzer corps HQ's are still hoarding fuel dumps. As I drop fuel on HQ's instead of divisions in some cases, that means many of my divisions don't have more than 30 MP's even if the dumps are available.

You need to play againt an opponent who knows what a defence in depth is before you can understand why I'm saying attacks like you've been able to make against other opponents are pretty utopian against an opponent who checkerboards or places a carpet of units in your path.

If a penetration is successful, such as in the center, unpredictably successful Soviet counterattacks have cost me two turns of progress in the center. With the ease with which mobile units get pushed around now, the high casualties they're taking, and the fact that any units you rout will just be in the line again next turn, it's extremely difficult to get through a carpet currently.

notenome's casualties from routing do seem to have increased slightly, so maybe some of his divisions have finally had it, after being routed for several turns in a row.

quote:

How do you think the routing/recovery rules should be changed?


I'm currently thinking about something like: routed units that are rallied fight as if unready until the next friendly phase, no matter what shape they're really in. So the sequence would be: enemy phase 1#:unit is routed, friendly phase 1#: unit is rallied and fights as if unready, enemy phase 2# the units that were rallied still fight as unready, as opposed to the current situation where they can be combat ready, friendly phase 2#: the unit, if not routed again and if not unready/depleted, returns to full combat readiness.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 2/2/2011 4:15:31 PM >

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