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MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 1/31/2011 9:31:47 AM   
Overkenshin

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		Poor Steiner has been complaining for so long about this but even since the latest patch it appears nothing has been done to fix Obvious imbalance between mortars and at guns on the battlefield

Steiner is not alone in his concerns I assure you. The chances are that simply most veteran players are waiting for someone to release a mod which will fix this issue just as DavidsFX has done with his GT mod for the The Longest Day mod which more people are now playing online than are playing the original version of TLD.

I don't seem to be able to create a poll personally so would someone else maybe one of moderators herePlease create a poll so we can get a realistic view of the general opinion on this issue from people who visit this forum.

I will just repeat what Steiner is trying to say which is currently the game balance IS BROKEN BECAUSE MORTARS ARE TOO POWERFUL/TOO ACCURATE AND AT GUNS ARE TOO EASILY SPOTTED/ TOO WEAKLY PROTECTED AGAINST MORTAR AND SMALL ARMS FIRE.

Mortars should have a chance of damaging the gun and injuring the crew but much less chance of outright destroying the gun especially within only a few rounds and at great range.

EVEN JUST A MINOR ADJUSTMENT IN THE NEXT PATCH OF THE UNIT DATA FOR THESE TWO UNIT TYPES WOULD WORK WONDERS FOR THE GAMES PLAYABILITY and make a lot of gamers very happy.

Please can any of you matrix guys play a little of UTAH, GJS, TRSM, SAS, Stalingrad or any of the other most celebrated mods for CC5 so you can get a proper idea of HOW THE BALANCE BETWEEN THESE TWO ELEMENTS WORKS BEST.

Sorry for the rant but this really needs fixing.

< Message edited by Overkenshin -- 2/1/2011 12:34:49 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 1/31/2011 11:19:42 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID=41&mode=thread&order=0&thold=-1


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RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 1/31/2011 12:17:00 PM   
Overkenshin

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline
Firstly and most importantly that link is a poll for The Longest Day which as i mentioned (and as anyone who logs into gameranger frequently will know) is now more often that not being played online in a modified version (Ground Tactics mod by Davidsfx) which removes the issue as a main feature of the mod by using Dima's tried and tested weapons data. This should give Matrix at least some idea of H2H communities attitude towards the issue.

Secondly, That poll does not cover the issue of AT guns venerability which is at least half the problem.

Thirdly, Many of the initial maps in TLD are beach maps with bunkers which provide excellent (and currently the only effective) form of protection for AT guns

Thirdly as this poll clearly shows, most players are playing vs 'AI only' in which the issue would be less apparent for several reasons:-
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID=43&mode=thread&order=0&thold=-1

Vs AI Play is less competitive
The enemy will have less ability than a real player to use mortar fire effectively
The enemy is less active both at assaulting enemy positions (where mortar fire is used most effectively both in attack and defence) and of strategic redeployment of units behind the front line (running between buildings and such)
Vs AI play is ususally with the Human player as the attacker (allies) who rely much less upon thier AT guns than the axis.

Finally anyone can vote on those polls you dont even have to be a registered member of the forum. Many people who dont even have TLD or didnt even read carefully the title of the poll will have voted on it. In which case we can expect they would to vote "no" or "its not an issue".




(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 3
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 1/31/2011 7:31:21 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Ok, so in your opinion, obviously, Polls are useless.

and yet

quote:

Please create a poll



i guess just on the off chance that it will caome down in your favour.


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Post #: 4
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 1/31/2011 9:27:11 PM   
Dundradal


Posts: 753
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		So make a poll, but then ignore the data because anyone can vote in them? I'm confused....

I agree that mortars vs AT is an issue I'm not sure how a poll will solve anything. It's just a waste of time and another way for people to vent their frustrations, which I believe the forums already serve as the primary means for.

It's also been stated the issue is being looked at for possible solutions. So while I feel your pain (and sympathize completely) I don't see how a poll will change anything.

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Go."
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Post #: 5
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/1/2011 5:23:18 AM   
Overkenshin

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		What i'm saying Andrew, is i believe that that old poll which you have so kindly provided the link for (a poll for TLD not LSA, a completely different game), because of the reasons i stated a above, does not represent accurately enough the majority view on the issue or at least the majority view of the multi-player community who play (or are trying to play) Last Stand Arnhem.

If the issue is being seriously looked at then that's fine. But what I have seen on these forums so far leads me to suspect that Matrix do not believe enough people would like it to be addressed or that this is a serious enough issue. Hence my suggestion of starting a new, more specific poll which also includes the issue of AT guns not just mortars.

Even a very minor tweak to the stats would be very much appreciated by a lot of people.



(in reply to Dundradal)
Post #: 6
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/1/2011 6:45:56 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		A tweak is on it's way

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Post #: 7
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/1/2011 7:38:00 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		LOL....thanks for the help...i think a poll is a great idea. how about it andrew? no one liked the mortor a/t gun balance in TLD either it seems. go figure.
oh and thanks for the tweak!!!

dundradal.......indulge my fragile ego and point me to the post that actually says matrix was going to look at the issue for possible solutions please.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 8
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/1/2011 10:30:51 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Two posts above.

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RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/1/2011 3:10:34 PM   
stolidog


Posts: 76
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		agree, AT/FlaK guns too easily destroyed by mortars making them almost useless

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Post #: 10
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/2/2011 3:49:39 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

dundradal.......indulge my fragile ego and point me to the post that actually says matrix was going to look at the issue for possible solutions please.


Please re-read my posts in response to yours to find your answer(s). It was with Dundradals, RD_Gen_Jack's and testing teams hard work that we actually gathered enough specific information to be able to pin point what was causing folks to see this to be able to make the adjustments.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 11
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 3:59:03 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		LOL.....well i gotta say THANKS to all you other people including Dundradal, RD_Gen_Jack and the testing team for there hard work. without them matrix wouldnt have been able to actually gather enough specific information to be able to pin point what was causing folks to see these problems so adjustments could be made. thanks again......love you guys

im a little hurt that you didnt mention my poor name as well Oddball, as the play tester who kept hope alive.... that perhaps one day the above mentioned players would dig deep into the hard facts from the little specific info i and other players gave you all on why A/T guns and mortors dont really work well in LSA ,since practically the 1st week it came out. but the main thing is..matrix is gonna tweak it

THANK YOU

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 12
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 5:59:24 AM   
mat7861

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline 		He might mention your name if you had constructive criticism, instead of just complaining all the time... No offense, but that's all i have seen you do so far.

This is one of the only companies, especially small ones, that i have seen respond to just about every complaint with an honest and informative answer. O well, haters will be just that.. And like i said, no offense...

On topic, I have found the mortars to be just fine, every once in a while they will blow up and at gun very quickly, but not every single time like some claim.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 13
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 6:12:18 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		mat just went on my "Good Guys" list..... no offense to anybody.

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Post #: 14
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 6:40:13 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		you call it "complaining" i call it trying to improve the game. i guess im a complainer ive also given lots of what you call constructive criticism. i havent seen you participate? No Offense.

< Message edited by STIENER -- 2/3/2011 6:43:03 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 7:03:01 AM   
mat7861

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline 		I will gladly participate once i play more, and find more bugs. Of course i have already found some, but they have been there since i played close combat 2 back in the day, so i figure they cant be helped. But honestly, i haven't had a chance to play these new ones as much as i would like. So once i play more, i will contribute more.

Besides, i just lost my LSA GC after playing 4 turns in. I Uploaded the save game so they can take a look. Do you consider that a contribution?

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 16
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 7:33:20 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		thanks for contributing "I will gladly participate once i play more, and find more bugs "...sounds like complaining or are you just trying to improve the game? No Offense.

i would be interested in your opinion of how the mortors and A/T work again after you play test the game alot more and play H2H. H2H is where you may find the mortor and A/T guns become more of an apparent issue. then again you may not.

(in reply to mat7861)
Post #: 17
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 12:15:14 PM   
ianlast

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 12/28/2010
Status: offline 		Lol. It is complaining when people keep going on about the issue. You have said several times about it and the Dev's have said they are looked/looking into it etc. Keep going over the same thing never speeds it up.

Say it once, constructive.
Say it twice, reminder.
Say it over and over, complaining.

All offence. Or not. It really doesn't matter.

My own playthroughs throughout the series of the mortar/AT gun issues are rather varied. For me it was at its worst in CC4 and the US AT guns getting mortar sniped. At the other end CC3/Cross of iron mortars didn't usually screw my AT guns up that much. Lucky? Whoknows. For LSA it's more varied for me.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 18
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 4:04:12 PM   
mat7861

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline 		How is saying that i will participate once i find more bugs complaining?  Your making no sense.  Ianlast has a point.  I have seen you post "constructive criticism",   and once they give you a straight answer,  you keep on going like they said nothing.   Anyways, I'm done talking about that.

I would love to find someone to start a H2H campaign against.  Maybe once i do that i will see some of the issues you are seeing.

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Post #: 19
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 10:05:36 PM   
Dundradal


Posts: 753
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		The most important thing to remember is Matrix isn't EA or Microsoft or any other huge gaming company. They have a finite number of resources so things can take longer.

I can say that Oddball and Steve have been hard at work looking into every single one of the problems mentioned here, but there are only so many hours in the day for them to work and Close Combat is a game that is pretty broad in its testing conditions so its hard to pump out patches of high quality. We aim to test things as well as possible, but things slip through. That's why there is this great community to support the publishers.

So stop arguing over who's complaining and who's contributing and go blow the crap out of each other on GR!

_____________________________

"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message Marathon Infinity

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Post #: 20
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/3/2011 11:54:53 PM   
mat7861

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline 		^THIS

So then who wants to start a H2H GC with me so we can blow the crap out of each other?

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Post #: 21
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/4/2011 3:45:25 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		all good points
for the record here......i didnt start this particular post. i thanked matrix in my own wierd way for tweaking this issue and ill say thank you again. Thank you.

this is the most feed back this issue has got from you guys since the debate started. where were you guys when you say you were reading the posts that i constantly complain in and was asking for your feed back on the issue?? thanks for putting your 2 cents in now tho.
the last time i looked or heard from any of my posts on this particular issue, as i remember it, Oddball or someone said to me....were not changing any mortor or A/T data because theres not enough feed back from OTHER players. we dont think theres a problem. perhaps im wrong and in one of the posts they said they were going to tweak it.
so get off my case about so called complaining......im trying to improve the game. if any of you have played GJS then you would know how well this game can play. its the standard that all CC games should be held to, and im sure that the lads at matrix will continue to improve LSA until it is the best it can be. im real impressed with the options LSA has come out with. im just waiting like the rest of you till it all works like it should.

if you want to start a H2H game Mat7861 then PM me here and we'll see what we can come up with. id be happy to blow the crap out of each other. any one else too.......

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Post #: 22
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 2/4/2011 4:15:01 AM   
Dundradal


Posts: 753
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline 		The best advice I can give is when you think you are see something that isn't functioning correctly is to document it. Screenshots, descriptions, etc are of great help. Just posting "mortars are too strong!" doesn't tell the programmers anything. Try replicating the problem in the same conditions and see how many cases you can get data for. All of that helps testing in that it provides additional things to look for.



_____________________________

"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message Marathon Infinity

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Post #: 23
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/9/2011 10:16:31 AM   
Iron Stringbean

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

A tweak is on it's way


Has this made it into the most recent beta patches for tLD and LSA? I just played a battle in tLD and one shotted all three german guns with my mortars. IMO the ground tactics mod goes a bit too far w/ mortars vs guns/open tops, but vanilla is too easy to take them out within seconds. A slight tweak would be a nice addition

by the way, I'm just coming back to playing Close Combat again after a long break, and I'm LOVING the improvements in AI and pathfinding. So thank you for your continued support of these games!

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Post #: 24
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/9/2011 2:25:20 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Glad you're enjoying the improvements Iron Stringbean.

As indicated in the changes list for v.51b it was tweaked. Here's what was changed:


  • Reduced the distance for an HE round to be considered a ‘direct hit’ on a vehicle from 3m to 2m.
  • Reduced the effect of a blast hit against an unarmored part of a vehicle.
  • Greatly reduced the chance of a gun itself being knocked out by a blast hit. It can still be damaged or have crew killed at the same rate, however.


In order to consider making more tweaks we'll need very specific instances/descriptions so we can replicate it on our end and understand what you're seeing.

(in reply to Iron Stringbean)
Post #: 25
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/9/2011 3:32:26 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Iron Stringbean, note that patch v.51b is for LSA.... TLD did not have any recent changes for Mortars vs AT guns....

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Post #: 26
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/9/2011 3:48:32 PM   
kojusoki1

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		I didnt spot any changes in AT Guns vs mortar in the newsest patch. They blow as usual :) But i played just a few maps

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Post #: 27
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/9/2011 6:19:54 PM   
Iron Stringbean

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

Iron Stringbean, note that patch v.51b is for LSA.... TLD did not have any recent changes for Mortars vs AT guns....


Ah that may explain my experience while playing tLD then. Are there plans to bring this tweak to tLD and WaR as well?

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Post #: 28
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/14/2011 4:26:19 PM   
mooxe


Posts: 314
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		The polls on CCS should be for entertainment value only. They may hold some truth but since you can vote an unlimited amount of times or lie, it makes them mostly useless. When "AI only" people vote on polls for "H2H" people, the results are heavily skewed.

I don't know if this has been patched since the original post but anyways... GJS TRSM 0.982 has an excellent balance. Guns are not spotted very easily. Mortars can kill guns but it takes sustained fire and you will use alot of ammo to do it. While bombarding the gun, your crew has a chance of getting killed and injured. The odds are usually on your side though to bring the gun, you can break cover and expect incoming mortars to follow. They are not so deadly that it negates the purpose of bringing guns. I can't read the data or find out how Dima made the balance, but you'd be hard pressed to find many or any complaints at all about thier power.

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Post #: 29
RE: MOTARS VS AT GUNS - 3/15/2011 2:44:37 AM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback on this Iron Stringbean.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Stringbean
Are there plans to bring this tweak to tLD and WaR as well?


To my recollection this is the first time we're hearing that kind of feedback about TLD and WaR.

< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 3/15/2011 2:45:38 AM >

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Post #: 30
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