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Time of fury? - 1/25/2011 9:02:45 AM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I've just had a look at Time of Fury. It does look like a sequel to Time of Wrath, so I'd like to ask some questions.

What improvements can we expect to the problematic areas of ToW? Will this time AI handle properly all the features of the game? (i.e. problems with unloading troops and generally naval aspect). And in general how improved will the AI be? Will the units still be built instantly? and of course any and all comparisons that you could provide between the two games would be great.

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Post #: 1
RE: Time of fury? - 1/26/2011 4:44:00 AM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline 		Looks very similar, and thats not a bad thing.
One thing i would like to know is it going to be different enough where as a patch couldnt get TOW to that stage, i like the game but it could be alot better with a few tweaks, and upgrade the interface which feeling clunky
This is of a thread on there forums.

Among many, many improvements and changes, let me tell you about two of them:
Changed naval system, which means that naval units has been moved on the main map, also there is a possibility to give them orders during the naval battle, which may, change the course of The Battle for Atlantic. Also the number of sea zones is somewhere around 200, so the war on see needs now much more planning.
Country specific settings, which rockets the game into completely new area of experience, now every country has been much more customized, for example, German tanks are faster and a little bit stronger than others, this allows to represents Blitzkrieg doctrine, Soviet infantry is much cheaper than others, which allows to recreate Human Wave doctrine. If we go even deeper into the details, German supply system is not so effective as average, and US is much more effective, cost of units can be different for different countries as some of them specialized in various types of weapons, also some units are trying to represent this specialization by increasing their strength, as early Polish motorized units that are representing cavalry, which has been very well developed in Poland.

(in reply to borsook79)
Post #: 2
RE: Time of fury? - 1/26/2011 1:15:37 PM   
Anraz

 

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Words quoted in green give a good preview. In short what was good was improved and what wasn’t was changed as usual happens during development of a new game. More info will come thanks to devdiary and other press materials.

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Post #: 3
RE: Time of fury? - 1/26/2011 6:20:56 PM   
von altair


Posts: 316
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline 		So they just make new games and loot the money, instead of bugfixing Time of Wrath. The game has several gamebreaking issues and they
dont bother to fix them.

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Post #: 4
RE: Time of fury? - 1/26/2011 7:37:43 PM   
Anraz

 

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Didn’t we make several patches for ToW during teen months after release of the game? I know that some people will always want more. Please notice that in some patches we even changed part of gamplay what is far beyond typical patching policy. Not mentioning that all people who bought Road to Victory were given with ToW for free. Indeed we are very greedy people...

< Message edited by Anraz -- 1/26/2011 10:31:01 PM >

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RE: Time of fury? - 1/26/2011 11:31:34 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		von Altair, I have already wrote couple of times that we are going to bugfix Time of Wrath, and the next patch should be released in mid March.
If you could lead me to the thread that describes gamebraking issues in your opinion, this will be very handy.


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RE: Time of fury? - 1/27/2011 9:09:58 AM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

von Altair, I have already wrote couple of times that we are going to bugfix Time of Wrath, and the next patch should be released in mid March.
If you could lead me to the thread that describes gamebraking issues in your opinion, this will be very handy.


Just a quick answer - raiders not firing back - it basically destroys the battle for the Mediterranean as AI creates a lot of raider fleets that are basically just sitting ducks.

There are other things worth improving (AI and naval transporting of units) but I'd say this is the only gamebreaking problem.

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Post #: 7
RE: Time of fury? - 1/27/2011 9:12:30 AM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair

So they just make new games and loot the money, instead of bugfixing Time of Wrath. The game has several gamebreaking issues and they
dont bother to fix them.

Come on, they do have to earn money... other companies tend to do it via expansions, here its a new version, but the idea is similar. But contrary to other companies here the devs actually do listen. I bought 1.0 of ToW and the changes done in the patches are tremendous, and most of them were actually suggestions done by us, players.

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Post #: 8
RE: Time of fury? - 1/27/2011 3:55:54 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Raiders were hunters against convoys, but a prey when they meet real fleet, so that they can not fire back is a design decision, please imagine this battle against raiders as a hunt of couple of destroyers after lonely submarine. If you really really would like that riders will fire back, then we can probably make this as an option, but why raiders should get a spotting bonus against convoys then?


If you think that AI is using raiders too much in Mediterranean, we can tune it down.
Thats not a problem.

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Post #: 9
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 12:13:58 AM   
Wolfe1759


Posts: 798
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Shropshire, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

Among many, many improvements and changes, let me tell you about two of them:
Changed naval system, which means that naval units has been moved on the main map, also there is a possibility to give them orders during the naval battle, which may, change the course of The Battle for Atlantic. Also the number of sea zones is somewhere around 200, so the war on see needs now much more planning.
Country specific settings, which rockets the game into completely new area of experience, now every country has been much more customized, for example, German tanks are faster and a little bit stronger than others, this allows to represents Blitzkrieg doctrine, Soviet infantry is much cheaper than others, which allows to recreate Human Wave doctrine. If we go even deeper into the details, German supply system is not so effective as average, and US is much more effective, cost of units can be different for different countries as some of them specialized in various types of weapons, also some units are trying to represent this specialization by increasing their strength, as early Polish motorized units that are representing cavalry, which has been very well developed in Poland.


I own both ToW and SotP and am very much on the fence as to whether I'm at all likely to be interested in ToF so far probably erring to not interested side of the fence.

The above features are if accurate probably pushing me more solidly to the not interested side.

200 sea zones - the Sea War / War of the Atlantic / Wolfpacks were a key part of the ETO but 200 sea zones seems overkill

Fast German tanks, Soviet human wave attacks, specialising in different weapons - in a grand strategy level game ??

Polish motorized units representing cavalry - why not just have a cavalry unit ?


Lets just stick to improving ToW, the modders have done a great job on the graphical side (the screen shots of ToF, particularly the North Africa one are downright ugly in comparison)- unfortunately the probable focus on the new game and then I suspect Bitter Glory may mean that ToW will now be the beta for ToF.

I hope I'm wrong.


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Post #: 10
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 9:06:03 AM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Raiders were hunters against convoys, but a prey when they meet real fleet, so that they can not fire back is a design decision, please imagine this battle against raiders as a hunt of couple of destroyers after lonely submarine. If you really really would like that riders will fire back, then we can probably make this as an option, but why raiders should get a spotting bonus against convoys then?


If you think that AI is using raiders too much in Mediterranean, we can tune it down.
Thats not a problem.

It makes sense with submarines, but AI uses all kinds of ships as raiders. Currently you can meet 4 battleships with one of your and they will not fire back... this is illogical, seems that in RL they would. :) Maybe we should have a division between surface raiders (which fire back) and submarines (which do not). As for spotting bonus - to offset that raiders could get a penalty to their combat abilities. That said even with this change introduced I believe AI does use too much raiders.

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Post #: 11
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 9:12:48 AM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

Among many, many improvements and changes, let me tell you about two of them:
Changed naval system, which means that naval units has been moved on the main map, also there is a possibility to give them orders during the naval battle, which may, change the course of The Battle for Atlantic. Also the number of sea zones is somewhere around 200, so the war on see needs now much more planning.
Country specific settings, which rockets the game into completely new area of experience, now every country has been much more customized, for example, German tanks are faster and a little bit stronger than others, this allows to represents Blitzkrieg doctrine, Soviet infantry is much cheaper than others, which allows to recreate Human Wave doctrine. If we go even deeper into the details, German supply system is not so effective as average, and US is much more effective, cost of units can be different for different countries as some of them specialized in various types of weapons, also some units are trying to represent this specialization by increasing their strength, as early Polish motorized units that are representing cavalry, which has been very well developed in Poland.


I own both ToW and SotP and am very much on the fence as to whether I'm at all likely to be interested in ToF so far probably erring to not interested side of the fence.

The above features are if accurate probably pushing me more solidly to the not interested side.

200 sea zones - the Sea War / War of the Atlantic / Wolfpacks were a key part of the ETO but 200 sea zones seems overkill

Fast German tanks, Soviet human wave attacks, specialising in different weapons - in a grand strategy level game ??

Polish motorized units representing cavalry - why not just have a cavalry unit ?


Lets just stick to improving ToW, the modders have done a great job on the graphical side (the screen shots of ToF, particularly the North Africa one are downright ugly in comparison)- unfortunately the probable focus on the new game and then I suspect Bitter Glory may mean that ToW will now be the beta for ToF.

I hope I'm wrong.


Cavalry units were being changed into motorised units, while some armies (e.g. Russians and Italians) did retain them as separate path, mostly they can be considered as lvl1 of motorised.

I'm all for differences between national armies. While it is grand strategy, the armies did use different equipment, chains of command and tactics, so their divisions should perform differently... not sure though if a speed boost is what Germany should get...

Is there some sort of beta for ToF? And what about publishers? Are there any chances of the new game coming to Steam?

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Post #: 12
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 9:43:31 AM   
Anraz

 

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Beta testers for Time of Fury are currently being recruited at Slitherine’s main site at the following link: http://slitherine.com/beta_test/time_of_fury

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RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 12:38:47 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

not sure though if a speed boost is what Germany should get...

This bonus has not been implemented to represent the horse power of the tanks, it is added into the game, to show that German Blitzkrieg tactic was supreme against other, which has been proved in Polish, French and early Russian campaigns.

quote:

Cavalry units were being changed into motorised units, while some armies (e.g. Russians and Italians) did retain them as separate path, mostly they can be considered as lvl1 of motorised.

This is exactly or point of view

quote:

Fast German tanks, Soviet human wave attacks, specializing in different weapons - in a grand strategy level game ??

I think that you are looking from a different perspective. Those specializations are implemented to represent tactics used by different countries. In case of German tanks, we just add them one more Action Point. Not too much for the first look, but it really can help to make the final push.
Soviet human waves, was not a tactic, it was general strategy of the Red Army, they were sending more and more soldiers to the front lines keeping NKVD units in the back. Take a look at the Soviet losses during the siege of Berlin and compare them with the losses of western Allies during the whole European campaign, so you will clearly see that the Russians didn't bother about human lives.

quote:

may mean that ToW will now be the beta for ToF.

I think this is not a fair description. ToW was improved a lot after the initial release of the game. Please take a look into the readme file and you will see that except fixes there are many new entries about game improvements.



We are also going to implement a couple of skins for both units and map, so you can probably choose something that will fit your taste :-)

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Post #: 14
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 4:11:59 PM   
borsook79


Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		To sum up serious issues in ToW:

"Tobruk trap." It does not occur all the time, but does happen quite often. If AI has a port with all the surrounding hexes controlled by the enemy (even though they are empty), AI will not be able to unload transports at this port (while just moving the garrison would allow the to control the hexes around and unload). Instead AI will send transport after transport to this port, with those troops just sitting there on ships (I have seen Italian AI waste 30+ divisions in this way)

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Post #: 15
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 4:22:13 PM   
rjh1971


Posts: 4919
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

Beta testers for Time of Fury are currently being recruited at Slitherine’s main site at the following link: http://slitherine.com/beta_test/time_of_fury

Just signed in for beta testing. Will I be getting a mail from Slitherine if they choose me?

Thanks

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GG's AWD, GG's WBTS, GG's WitE Beta Tester
Beta Tester: Panzer Corps, Time of Fury, CtGW, DC CB, DC3 Barbarossa, SC WWII WiE, SC WWII WaW, SC WWI

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Post #: 16
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 7:18:48 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		rjh1971, You will receive an e-mail from Slitherine if they will choose you. Please be aware that the invitations are going to be split to couple of turns.


Borsook, thanks for the info.

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Post #: 17
RE: Time of fury? - 1/28/2011 9:55:49 PM   
rjh1971


Posts: 4919
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

rjh1971, You will receive an e-mail from Slitherine if they will choose you. Please be aware that the invitations are going to be split to couple of turns.

...

Thanks Leszek

_____________________________


GG's AWD, GG's WBTS, GG's WitE Beta Tester
Beta Tester: Panzer Corps, Time of Fury, CtGW, DC CB, DC3 Barbarossa, SC WWII WiE, SC WWII WaW, SC WWI

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Post #: 18
RE: Time of fury? - 2/4/2011 12:59:33 AM   
sheridangreen

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Raiders were hunters against convoys, but a prey when they meet real fleet, so that they can not fire back is a design decision, please imagine this battle against raiders as a hunt of couple of destroyers after lonely submarine. If you really really would like that riders will fire back, then we can probably make this as an option, but why raiders should get a spotting bonus against convoys then?


Raiders should fight back, but by themselves. So a large british task force made up of BBs and CVs would get more shots per turn than a single german battleship. The german battleship might get a few hits in, but the british task group will eventually overwhelm the german with firepower and sink them. Think of the british engaging the Bismark. The Bismark fired back o nits pursuers several times (and even sank one of them), the Bismark was eventually overwhelmed with carrier aircraft and other british ships.

Same with subs. The sub set on 'raider' would get 1 shot per turn, but a group of 6 patrol ships set on 'regular' would get one shot each per turn, and would probably sink the sub.

So the choice to go with 'raider' would be "I get more chances to sink convoys, but if I am caught, I fight alone and probably lose." At least give them a chance to shoot back and cause some damage before they go.

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Post #: 19
RE: Time of fury? - 2/5/2011 8:53:21 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Of course I understand your point sheridangreen, however we think that for the gameplay it would be better to not allow raiders to shoot back.
Of course I think me might give a possibility to made this possible as an option.

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RE: Time of fury? - 2/12/2011 6:21:35 PM   
Peter123

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 2/13/2010
Status: offline 		When playing TOW and SOP (two human) I use some house rules, for example:

Not allowed to enter a enemy hex betwen two enemy corps sized units. A more restrictive version of this rule applies across rivers.

Leaders representing supply and support units. They have increased range and strenght and can only stay in elegible HQ units. They are in different flavours: Offensive, defense, minimal, etc. Some of them (Offensives) must be purchased (manualy, F11)

A maximum number of units of each type and level to be fielded for each country.

Air units not allowed to strike (and destroy) very weak land units.

With these rules, you can play low counter density, fun, fast and acurate WWII scenarios; just the ones I like.


I´m not asking for these rules to be implemented but to maintain the flexibility to be able to play this way or just another way.


Here you can see a Stalingrad scenario for SOP played using these rules:

Slideshow Case Blau


I would like to be able to eliminate or tune down overruns for some scenarios (I know some people wants the opossite). Maybe to make overruns moddable could be possible?

Anyway, with the big map, the editor, railways. etc, cant wait for the release.

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Post #: 21
RE: Time of fury? - 2/15/2011 8:35:52 PM   
von altair


Posts: 316
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline 		How about fixing Time of Wrath as promised before collecting more money with new product?
This game is badly broken and is unplayable. Shame on you dev team.

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Post #: 22
RE: Time of fury? - 2/16/2011 8:00:08 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		@von Altair, What about reading the whole thread, and my previous answer to your post?


You didn't provided any example of CTD, not to mention you didn't sent any save game that will allow to reproduce the crash. Non-cnstructive complains are just rude.


I see that you just don't like the naval part of the game which has been completely redesigned for Time of Fury. It's hard to agree that the WAD is broken. Please keep this thread on the subject and if you like to report something else except those things you have already posted (I would really appreciate save game that will allow me to CTD), please start a new thread in the Tech Support forum.



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Post #: 23
RE: Time of fury? - 2/16/2011 2:05:54 PM   
JagdFlanker


Posts: 689
Joined: 7/26/2003
From: Halifax, Canada
Status: offline 		except for reports not working for anyone beyond the 1st player during a PBEM turn/week i think the game is working great for us. can't wait for the new game!

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Post #: 24
RE: Time of fury? - 2/17/2011 12:10:47 AM   
Frido1207

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Lower Saxony, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
You didn't provided any example of CTD, not to mention you didn't sent any save game that will allow to reproduce the crash.


Sorry for stepping in, but to this sentence I have to reply.
I don´t have anything to do with the game issues von Altair mentioned here. But I posted a technical question here & over at the Wasteland Forums in Dec 2010:
http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3210
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2652847

In the end, I didn´t get any reply to this at all.

I would have been pleased if you (or someone of your team), would has been answered my question with a single sentence.

You could have told me, that you don´t have the time for this, because you´re working on other projects.
You could have told me, that you´re looking at my question & try to solve it in a later patch or whatever.
You could have told me, that my problem isn´t repeatable for you.

But all you did was nothing.

On the other hand you try to convince me to buy a new (?) product from you?

Tbh. at the moment i don´t feel like a "valued customer" (SotP Order confirmation).

< Message edited by th1207 -- 2/17/2011 12:12:04 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Time of fury? - 2/17/2011 12:28:13 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Hi th1207,

I'm sorry that you didn't received any answer. This is usually me who has been answering to the people, and unfortunately I was out for holidays for my little son's Christening.



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Post #: 26
RE: Time of fury? - 2/19/2011 10:05:16 AM   
Anraz

 

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Have you seen a new ToF`s subform ? I think it is worth checking it to see a couple of new screens and other game related information. Just click http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=927 !




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Post #: 27
RE: Time of fury? - 2/23/2011 8:59:48 PM   
von altair


Posts: 316
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

@von Altair, What about reading the whole thread, and my previous answer to your post?


You didn't provided any example of CTD, not to mention you didn't sent any save game that will allow to reproduce the crash. Non-cnstructive complains are just rude.


I see that you just don't like the naval part of the game which has been completely redesigned for Time of Fury. It's hard to agree that the WAD is broken. Please keep this thread on the subject and if you like to report something else except those things you have already posted (I would really appreciate save game that will allow me to CTD), please start a new thread in the Tech Support forum.


There is no answer in this forum/tech at all for my bug report. At wasteland forums you told (Posted: 2010-11-30, 16:07 http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3137) that there will be fixes for broken German AI and Naval issue. 3 months later and no patch/fixes in sight.
Just a new game with new payment cost. Are customers supposed to pay again for a new game, so they can play with working land AI/Naval system?
This not how things should be. By no means I dont want to be rude. However its about time to tell, that I am unhappy customer with a broken game
in my hand. Those problems may sound small, but if Land AI and Naval AI is broken, what is left? I have rights to be unhappy. I've waited 3
months, but all I can see is a new game release upcoming. Customers have rights to know how gamesupport works, so they can decide if its worth
the money.

I would like to repeat, that I like Time of Wrath a lot, if it just would work.

And no, I dont have savefile to reproduce CTD. Sometimes it crash, sometimes it dont. I can live with few crashes as long as even AI would work.

If you, for example want to reproduce broken naval AI. Start a new game with Italy. Get all your naval to dock. Run few turns and you wont get ANY
damage to your resources. As soon as you move even one ship to the sea, it starts working (though AI naval stacking with just 1 ship/fleet doesnt work).
Whats the point of having naval modeled at all if you can avoid enemy just by keeping your navy at dock or kill 1 ship AI task forces easily with your eyes
closed!??

< Message edited by von altair -- 2/23/2011 9:20:26 PM >

_____________________________

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"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

-Axel Oxenstierna

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 28
RE: Time of fury? - 2/23/2011 9:22:23 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I didn't declared when those fixes will be released. But they should be expected in next patch. If you will take a look at my post from 27th of January you will find out when.
Also I don't think that those issues overrules that the AI is broken. Does the Soviet AI allows you to beat it every time you are playing Germany? Are you able to hold German AI every time when playing as France?

I can understand that you are not happy with the design of the naval part of the game, but this brought improvements in the next titles. If you will buy a Ford KA, and put two adult persons into the back seat, The Ford Motor Company won't give you a new car just because they are hitting their heads with the roof.

We are constantly supporting our products and if you will compare gold version of Time of Wrath with the latest patch, you will see how many new features and improvements have been added. Saying that we are trying to put the bite is just unfair.

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Post #: 29
RE: Time of fury? - 2/23/2011 9:35:09 PM   
von altair


Posts: 316
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
Also I don't think that those issues overrules that the AI is broken. Does the Soviet AI allows you to beat it every time you are playing Germany? Are you able to hold German AI every time when playing as France?

I can understand that you are not happy with the design of the naval part of the game, but this brought improvements in the next titles. If you will buy a Ford KA, and put two adult persons into the back seat, The Ford Motor Company won't give you a new car just because they are hitting their heads with the roof.


Land AI is broken for sure, if German AI still hangs around Warsow at 1944 and dont know how to capture it. There is a screenshot (1940) about it:
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=0585dasajc1bqfu

Situation stays like this for the rest of the game.

You were right, I mistyped year in wasteland forums. Thats not important, since screenshot will be the same at 1944. AI is broken, it cant
capture capital or, does it find out important resource hex/capture it.

Like I sayd, there is no point at all modeling naval if it doesnt work AT ALL, if you just move your ships to a dock. AI should still work man :)

If I would buy a ford (which I wont never do) and its engine doesnt work and doors are jammed, for sure Ford would give
me a working car or my army of jurists would get me 5 million dollars and 10 fords :)


< Message edited by von altair -- 2/23/2011 9:50:58 PM >

_____________________________

"An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

-Axel Oxenstierna

(in reply to doomtrader)
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