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Small Question / Recon Units - 9/11/2002 4:26:14 AM

Matthias72

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/9/2002
From: Germany, NRW
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Hello!
At first sorry if my english is not so good, because
i come from germany.
I am new at WaW and i think its a really great game,
especially the campaign-editor is great :-)

Since now i played just a few easy scenarios,
but i always have problems to discover enemy units
when i am advancing, AT�s and so on.

Do Recon-Vehicles discover them earlyer then
the other units?
Thanks for your answers.

Greetings from germany

Matthias72:cool:

Post #: 1

recon units discover better - 9/11/2002 5:29:31 AM

ivantheterrible

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From: Dallas
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Welcome Matthias72! Yes, units with "Recon ability" listed in their stat screen such as recon team, recon patrol, sniper, and some armored car recon units will spot better than regular non-recon troops. However, remember recon-vehicle is also VERY easy to be spotted, and therefore knocked-out by enemy AT units etc. Therefore, in my opinion it's better to use foot recon units such as recon team or sniper who stands a better chance of remaining unspotted by enemy while doing their recon duty.

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- 9/11/2002 5:39:12 AM

Redleg

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Slow-moving recon units have a better chance of spotting and surviving that fast-moving.

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- 9/11/2002 1:47:13 PM

Resisti

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I'd change slightly ivantheterrible's statement: recon vehicles spot LESS WORSE than regular vehicles, but not as good as foot recon units.
Regular (non-recon) vehicles infact, suffer from a negative modifier, when the spotting routine is calculated; so the recon vehicles simply don't suffer from this modifier.
In another words, we could roughly assume that recon vehicles spot like a regular infantry unit, but worse than a recon infantry unit.

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Recon Units - 9/13/2002 11:38:39 AM

Ironfist

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Armor recon is good used Propperly. I load mine with Recon inf. , mg's and at-rifles. I send them to the farthest point, unload and let my inf scout for the enemy. If recon can dig in without being spoted they can plot the enemys movement and become an ambush if cover fire is placed over their position. But Infantry recon is by far the best for advanceing. A well placed Light armor unit and Mg's units can play havoc with APC's and Infantry. Thus slowing them down for an Artillery Strike..:eek:

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Re: Recon - 9/13/2002 11:43:28 AM

Ironfist

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Back to your orginal question. A cheap and effective units are Motorcycle units. Schwimwagons, and stummel units. I like the light armor units that carry 4 or more men.

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Recon - 9/13/2002 9:04:20 PM

maniacalmonkey

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I like to use motorcycle units to get a general idea of what the enemy is all about. Their speed is amazing and they're cheap - just send them straight into areas you think the enemy may be in and watch what happens. Don't worry if they get shot up a bit, they're also fast enough to make a good escape. This is a good way to find out what the enemy is throwing at you in a defensive scenario, so you can move your handy mobile reserves to where they'll be most needed :)

If you really want to ferret out enemy positions like AT guns, MG nests etc. you want the foot recon units. US Recon is pretty good when combined with jeeps; They're fast to move around, can quickly dismount and move into danger areas on foot, and the added .30 or .50 cal firepower can make a light recon platoon a pretty effective little harrassment force.

Hmm, it's been far too long since I played US... I'll go at it again now :)

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- 9/14/2002 10:37:30 AM

Vetkin

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I have always wondered what the USMC "Listening Post" unit is...

Is this unit some kind of advanced recon unit? What special characteristics does it have (Hard to spot?) and why is it called Listening POst instead of recon?

Are they good artillery spotters?

Do they affect Command & Control? etc.

Thanks for any info

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- 9/14/2002 4:40:06 PM

maniacalmonkey

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From: The Netherlands
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I now remember why I haven't played US for so long :rolleyes:

My 57mm AT's couldnt' hit a barn door at 50 yards and my Shermans... Well, let's just forget about Shermans shall we. In an act of utter despair I'm now driving my Wolverines right up to the enemy StuG's and am popping them at point-blank range - which works OK as long as SP:WAW doesn't crash back to windows :mad:

How the hell did the Americans ever win the war anyway?

Must have been their British and Canadian buddies :D

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- 9/15/2002 12:14:31 AM

Vetkin

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Maniacal monkey, ALL of the allies used Shermans in the end because it was the only one good enough. Compared to British tanks it was a fine piece of work. :D

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- 9/15/2002 12:18:00 AM

maniacalmonkey

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I miss my tigers though :(

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- 9/15/2002 3:57:28 AM

Ograbme

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by maniacalmonkey
[B]I now remember why I haven't played US for so long :rolleyes:

My 57mm AT's couldnt' hit a barn door at 50 yards and my Shermans... Well, let's just forget about Shermans shall we. In an act of utter despair I'm now driving my Wolverines right up to the enemy StuG's and am popping them at point-blank range - which works OK as long as SP:WAW doesn't crash back to windows :mad:

How the hell did the Americans ever win the war anyway?

Must have been their British and Canadian buddies :D [/B][/QUOTE]
You're forgetting that everything and it's dog has a 50cal MG though :D

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- 9/15/2002 6:53:24 AM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by maniacalmonkey
[B]I now remember why I haven't played US for so long :rolleyes:

My 57mm AT's couldnt' hit a barn door at 50 yards and my Shermans... Well, let's just forget about Shermans shall we. In an act of utter despair I'm now driving my Wolverines right up to the enemy StuG's and am popping them at point-blank range - which works OK as long as SP:WAW doesn't crash back to windows :mad:

How the hell did the Americans ever win the war anyway?

Must have been their British and Canadian buddies :D [/B]

Air Power. Rocket armed P-47's slaughtered the german Armor. Some of the 9th Air Force pilots even developed a technique of flying real low and bouncing .50 cal rounds off the roads up into the belly of German tanks. Bank shots. Besides, the most reliable tank the germans had was the Pz-III series, and they were easy pickin's for Shermans. The US Army avoided Tank vs Tank engagements. When the germans attacked with tanks the US called in Air support or M-10's. When the US was attacking and they ran into tanks they would call down the arty and bypass the Panzers, which would soon be out of ammo or fuel anyway.
T.

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- 9/15/2002 7:31:00 PM

maniacalmonkey

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[QUOTE]You're forgetting that everything and it's dog has a 50cal MG though[/QUOTE]

Ah, true... I'm currently fighting the Italians and they've been sending wave upon wave of infantry for about 24 turns now. My jeeps and Dodges have just evacuated evac the recon, sniper, bazooka, and MG squads I had set up in forward positions so I can let the artillery roar. A few counter attacks by mechanized Rangers have shattered their lines. Their HQ is dead and half their troops are retreating every turn (but their force morale refuses to break).

The key? MG's. Watch those squads die as the .50 and .30 cals tear through them. Muahahahaha....

As for air power - unfortunately, I have so far only been able to pick "Two Heavy Bombers" with less than encouraging results. I eagerly await better air support later on :D

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- 9/15/2002 8:09:34 PM

Voriax

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Btw, the German armour definitely *was not* slaughtered by ground attack aircraft...their gas and spares perhaps, but not tanks.
for example, after the Battle of the Bulge an area was examined where fighter-bombers had claimed 66 tanks and 24 other armoured vehicles destroyed. In this area were 101 abandoned armoured vehicles...and only 7 of them showed any considerable damage from air attack. During the whole battle fighter bombers claimed 750 tanks and armoured vehicles destroyed, while the actual number was probably less than 60, extrapolating from above figures.

Voriax

(hmm..perhaps this should belong to the military misconceptions thread :) )

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- 9/16/2002 2:21:35 AM

Hades

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Well I dont know whats wrong with your 57mms but whenever I see them in a battle they end up killing more tanks and hts than anything else.

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- 9/16/2002 7:13:01 AM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Btw, the German armour definitely *was not* slaughtered by ground attack aircraft...their gas and spares perhaps, but not tanks.
for example, after the Battle of the Bulge an area was examined where fighter-bombers had claimed 66 tanks and 24 other armoured vehicles destroyed. In this area were 101 abandoned armoured vehicles...and only 7 of them showed any considerable damage from air attack. During the whole battle fighter bombers claimed 750 tanks and armoured vehicles destroyed, while the actual number was probably less than 60, extrapolating from above figures.

Voriax

(hmm..perhaps this should belong to the military misconceptions thread :) ) [/B]

Along with the propaganda about Wittmann being killed by a firefly. His Tiger was destroyed by a Typhoon firing a 5"HVAR. The Canadian got the credit because there was a big flap at the time about how inferior Allied Armor was. And while it is true that more german tanks were abandoned because of breakdown and fuel shortages then were destroyed, von Kluge mounted his counterattack at avranches with 4 divisions that could only muster 185 tanks. After the allied air planes were finished, there was less then a dozen left. To quote General Westphal; "This was the first time in history that an attacking force had been stopped solely by bombing". Also in the Falaise pocket it wasn't neccessary to destroy the Armor. The 9th airforce was under orders to conserve HVAR's. Unlike bombs, they can be brought back if unused. So when the Jabo Pilots saw the germans leaving their armor, they would just straff them and not Rocket the tanks. The German crews figured out pretty quick that when the Lead vehicle blew up, their best chance of living was to abandon their AFV and hide in the dithches, hedgs, trees etc. To get back in the AFV was suicide. So when the graves regisration people came thru to clean up, they found AFV's that had been abandoned. Naturally they were out of fuel, nobody leaving a soon to be destroyed vehicle takes time to turn it off. The Israeli's noticed the same thing in the Sani in '67 and The Coilation forces in '91. You leave the tank running so If you can get back into it , you can get underway faster. Only at Falaise (and for most of the run thru France) The Allies had such a preponderence of Airpower that they would orbit an Area waiting for Targets. So the germans never had a chance to get back into their AFV's.
T.

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- 9/16/2002 11:33:29 PM

maniacalmonkey

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[QUOTE]Well I dont know whats wrong with your 57mms but whenever I see them in a battle they end up killing more tanks and hts than anything else.[/QUOTE]

It might have been a visibility issue then... Don't really know - I exchanged them for 3" AT's and they're pounding German armour like no tomorrow - they do attract a lot of mortar fire though. Another use for jeep-mounted recon: Find out where the enemy arty is (look for the smoke clouds), bomb the hell out of them, then send your SMG recons in .50 cal jeeps to take them out. The AI doesn't seem to place any real protection around their artillery, and the recon units are good spotters, so they'll even locate those tiny two-man mortar teams in a shell-holed smoke covered area.

What's the deal on buying units from other nations by the way? I was just about to purchase a few Tigers to replace my lead Shermans, but decided against it as something seemed very, very wrong with that...

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- 9/17/2002 10:55:57 AM

Irinami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by maniacalmonkey
[B]What's the deal on buying units from other nations by the way? I was just about to purchase a few Tigers to replace my lead Shermans, but decided against it as something seemed very, very wrong with that... [/B][/QUOTE]

These units do [I]NOT[/I] have the characteristics of their original nation, even if your allies. Thus, you could consider them to be captured examples. EG, Soviet forces fielding a German (of course) Panzer IV, which apparently happened often enough in WWII. Or perhaps US Army fielding a captured Japanese Type 92 MG. Or those German special forces guys who spoke English, dressed as US troops, and played havoc in the US rear areas (though obviously this can't be modelled exactly).

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- 9/22/2002 6:10:12 AM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by Vetkin
[B]I have always wondered what the USMC "Listening Post" unit is...

Is this unit some kind of advanced recon unit? What special characteristics does it have (Hard to spot?) and why is it called Listening POst instead of recon?

Are they good artillery spotters?

Do they affect Command & Control? etc.

Thanks for any info [/B]

AFAIK they serve the same purpose as special ops teams. You place them pre game anywhere on the map like a pre positioned srty request and they tun up there eventually, with a little luck. Commandos or guerrillas, if you prefer. All countries have some form of special ops team, I think. I havn't played every country, but ever country I've played had a special ops unit in the OOB. They are the best thing Matrix ever did.
T.

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Thoughts on scouts for rookies; - 9/22/2002 6:42:01 AM

Tomanbeg

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The most common mistake I see FNG's making is fighting their scouts like they were normal infantry. Scouts should scout. They should only fight enemy scouts. Without your scouts you are fighting blind. It is very rare that blind men win a fight. Once you find your opponent, pull your scouts back, and let your regular units take over. There are other jobs that need doing that you scouts can do a lot better then regular legs. Such as rear area protection. If you are playing me I promise you that I will have as many guerrillas or special ops teams in your rear as I can afford. Scouts are great for tracking them down. They also protect your on board arty and can be used as trip wires on the flanks. Unless, of course, you get them killed off assaulting dug in MG positions. While the little 2 and 4 man teams spot better, they are dog meat for an armored car with a heavy MG. And those AC's are dog meat for the midrange AT guns and AA guns. You need a mix. I nearly always build my own Recon teams using the Assign command. Put an AC with a gun that has some AT capability in the same platoon with a vehicle carring a MG(the bigger the MG the better) and at least 1 scout team. The US recon platoons from the Late '44 period on are great. As are the brits from the same period. A 37mmAT Gun on a fast AC, 2 scout teams and some fast vehicles to carry them in. If your country doesn't have the armed AC's like the grayhound or the puma, then buy a truck and put a scout platoon in it and just go like 4ell. At the end of each turn unload the truck and on your next turn move one scout team off into the weeds and hide him. Load up the rest of the scouts and repeat untill the truck explodes. You will now have a line of hidden scouts across the map. Set their range to zero and they are real hard to find. Done right, you should never be suprised by your enemy again. Plus you will know where he is going almost when he does(before he does, if you don't mind playing mind games). If you can keep him from doing it to you, then you can spring some real nasty traps.
T.

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- 9/22/2002 10:35:59 AM

Belisarius

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Or, it's pretty much like this:

You can accept taking a punch in the face although it hurts, but you scarcely let someone stab you in the eyes :p

Reckon is everything. I have to fight Jedi right now w/out it and GOD do I need it! :cool:

And oh yeah, Tomanbeg; I pretty much decided to dislike your sig.

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- 9/22/2002 12:34:49 PM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Or, it's pretty much like this:

You can accept taking a punch in the face although it hurts, but you scarcely let someone stab you in the eyes :p

Reckon is everything. I have to fight Jedi right now w/out it and GOD do I need it! :cool:

And oh yeah, Tomanbeg; I pretty much decided to dislike your sig. [/B]

I'll be more then happy to discuse my sig, but only on the AOW forum. I don't do politics anywhere else. It gets me in trouble.
T.:eek:

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- 9/22/2002 2:00:58 PM

bigtroutz

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]
And oh yeah, Tomanbeg; I pretty much decided to dislike your sig. [/B][/QUOTE]

Alot of people seem to dislike inconvenient facts. Deal with it.

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- 9/22/2002 4:01:53 PM

Voriax

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An interesting read: http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/airpower.html

Voriax

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- 9/23/2002 10:30:15 AM

Tomanbeg

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That article proves that someone with an axe to grind and tons of data that is willing to spend the time to comb the data can extract nuggets to prove their point. I, for one, have never doubted that.

"I. Gooderson, Allied Fighter-Bombers Versus German Armour in North&endash;West Europe 1944&endash;1945: Myths and Realities (Journal of Strategic Studies, vol 14, No 2 June 1991) p. 221. The basic sources for the data on destruction of German tanks and other equipment used by Gooderson are th e reports of the operations research teams that investigated the battlefields after the end of the battles and examined the wrecks found. These are probably the most reliable sources for such information avialable today."

Notice how the writer hedges his bets. And His contention that "These are probably the most reliable sources for such information avialable today" has been challenged on this forum already. These are the same group of people that worked for Col. Marshall and there is a group of historians that challege the intigerity of these reports. I think the reports are right, that the people making them had no motive for expending the extra effort to lie, since the 'lies' weren't discovered until the 1990's when it was possible to make money off challenging the reports. What is possible was an officer who had never been in a tank or aircraft to look at the blacked hulk of a german tank torn mostly apart by the normal internal explosion and come to what ever conclusion his commander ordered him to. The Politics of the day dictated that AIR power be downplayed because the Army Air Corps was trying to cut the string to the Army and become just the Air Force. The Army was not happy about this and quite capable of spinning Data to 'prove' it's point. So if there was any doubt about why a german tank exploded and spread bits all over the place, the Army got the credit in the offical reports.
BTW, 5" HVAR's being inaccurate is bull. You had to practice. The same rockets were used in Korea, where there is anecdotal material about the accuracy of the rockets when used by experienced pilots. I think that when they were tested in England, the pilots were rookies. There is plenty of gun camera film showing a pair of rokets hitting a tank and blowing it apart. Was there ever any attempt to cross reference the film to the after action reports?
T.

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- 9/23/2002 6:23:02 PM

Irinami

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I think I dig Recon ("reckon," BTW, is what they used to say in Missouri. I reckon I might get to liking recon. ;)), but here's a question: What's with turning the range down to 0? Does it provide any software advantage (eg, players know when you're getting opfire chances?), or is it just to keep you from accidentally hitting 'Y' when cycling through your opfires?

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- 9/24/2002 7:20:33 AM

Katana

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It's for when you swith off op-fire. You set the range to 0, so you don't give away you position until the enemy is right on top of you.
you can also switch off weapons, but it leaves your unit rather defenseless. Doesn't stop anyone from assaulting a tank, though:rolleyes:

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- 9/25/2002 6:32:13 AM

chief

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Tomaberg:
A little story about the accuracy of 5" Rockets: Period 1951, Atlantic area, Firing from Neptune (P2V) at a towed sled using solid head rocket. We fired one rocket from the Port wing (left for any AF types here) It (rocket) crossed our bow and scared the **** out of the pilot, it missed the sled so far ahead of it that the Tug that was towing gave us ****. On the next pass the starboard rocket also crossed out bow from right to left, I was nose gunner at the time and I swear I could have touch that sob. This was not a rare situation and these were WW2 rockets. When you (we) fired a salvo (4) each wing you usually got one or two in the target which was the way quite a few were fired in Korea by close air support.

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- 9/25/2002 10:51:00 AM

Tomanbeg

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Originally posted by chief
[B]Tomaberg:
A little story about the accuracy of 5" Rockets: Period 1951, Atlantic area, Firing from Neptune (P2V) at a towed sled using solid head rocket. We fired one rocket from the Port wing (left for any AF types here) It (rocket) crossed our bow and scared the **** out of the pilot, it missed the sled so far ahead of it that the Tug that was towing gave us ****. On the next pass the starboard rocket also crossed out bow from right to left, I was nose gunner at the time and I swear I could have touch that sob. This was not a rare situation and these were WW2 rockets. When you (we) fired a salvo (4) each wing you usually got one or two in the target which was the way quite a few were fired in Korea by close air support. [/B]

Exactly. My dad was in P2V's a few years later. Practice was the answer. When dad was flying out of Corpus Christy he said there was one pilot who could routinly hit barrels(55 gallon drums, I assume) floating on the ocean with 2 rocket salvos. Now he was a WW2 pilot flying an avenger, with thousands of hours in type and a lot of combat time. So for some chair bound army col to say that a P-47 pilot with lots of practice couldn't fire an 8 rocket salvo and pot a tank is BS. Or 4-2 rocket salvos. plus the 9th airforce didn't assign 2 plane sorties. If you got 1 P-47 you got between 16 and 48 depending on when it was. And Smart Flak gunners would hide and shoot up the last plane, because as soon as they started firing they went to the top of the target list. While SPAA shot down a lot of Jabo's, more SPAA's died then Jabo's. Look at the production numbers and figure how many were left to surrender. No this was about Politics. The Army didn't want to admit that the Tank Destroyer Idea was stupid and cost the lives of a lot of brave men. And they didn't want to lose control of the Army Air Corps. So they fudged the numbers, which is still an Army tradition. Gundecking is not just a naval diesese. It's done in all the armed forces, I just don't know the slang is for the boys in blue or the Army. It could be worse, the RAF still won't admit that the night bombing campaign was a colossal waste of men and money.
T.

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