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Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 1:50:25 AM   
Horst Wessell

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/4/2011
From: Montana
Status: offline 		I see that Moscow has the hammer and sickle, but Berlin has the black cross instead of the swastika. I'm sure the hammer and sickle would have been offensive to someone from a gulag. Maybe even from a german POW. Maybe someone from east germany. Was the swatika kept out for financial reasons? I know with the political correctness today, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. But with so much effort to make the game historical, was it left out for financial reason's or political correctness, or political pressure? When in the 60's I was involved in a game for Avalon Hill called Origins, we left the swastica in because that is what represented Germany. I would especially like to hear from Joel, I think we started board gaming about the same time.

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RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:00:00 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Swastikas are ROUTINELY kept out of games with international distribution.
They are illegal in Germany. Period.
Any other stupid complaints?

(in reply to Horst Wessell)
Post #: 2
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:05:47 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Easy, the tone is not needed to explain why it is not there.

But yes, the swastica was left out due to legal issues in some countries. It was asked and answered a long time ago.

I also think it was said that if you wanted to make a mod, you could, Matrix and 2by3 cannot be held liable for a mod.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 3
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:06:24 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 4
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:20:45 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2642120

Here is a mod and an answer from Erik from Matrix Games.

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 5
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:04:19 AM   
Horst Wessell

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/4/2011
From: Montana
Status: offline 		So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.

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No man is more hopelessly enslaved, than he who falsely believes he is free. Goethe

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Post #: 6
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:12:14 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Sorry you feel this way. I apologize for the harsh tone above. 

(in reply to Horst Wessell)
Post #: 7
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:21:33 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?

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Post #: 8
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:28:48 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?


Really.

Way back when, I didn't know. Or had a reason to know either. That was back in the day when the Avalon Hill was the only game in town.

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Post #: 9
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 3:31:51 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.
You're talking about the most comprehensive Eastern Front wargame ever released on computer (and arguably ever) and you're going to debase that work with a complaint that the Swastika is not included.
Moreover, you impugn the courage of the designers and publishers of the game with allusions that they did not have the fortitude to 'hurt someone's feelings'.
And on top of that, you then impugn the designers and publishers' integrity in stating that because they use the Hammer & Sickle, they thus are hypocrites.

Offensive.
Stupid.
Thus, my 'tone.'

I make no apology.

Helio, out!


< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/5/2011 3:41:14 AM >

(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 10
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 7:55:43 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting choice of user name.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 11
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 8:49:57 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game.

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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Post #: 12
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 9:34:05 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.


Never confuse lack of knowledge with lack of intelligence.

Bad manners should also not be confused with either, but they never reflect well on the person with them.

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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 13
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 10:03:17 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game.


Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.

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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 14
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 10:18:59 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.


I'm not necessarily saying that heliodorus' response was completely OK, but at the same time you're going to have to develop a much thicker skin than that if you're going to spend any amount of time on the internet.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 15
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 10:47:13 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game.


Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.


?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

I am usually not really biased about stuff like this. Fascists were not the only murderers of innocent people (especially during the 30s and 40s). I see a lot of people with "waffen SS" oriented avatars. I wouldnt do it myself but I can understand the fascination with a "sort of elite" German militairy organisation.... But having the login name of Horst Wessel (fascist marter) and starting a thread about "political correctness" of the hammer and sickle / swastika is asking for responses like this.....

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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Post #: 16
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 11:07:33 AM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.


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Skanvak

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Post #: 17
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 11:17:54 AM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.



Perhaps it is short sighted but you have to think about three things:

- When was the law implemented?
- How scarred are european countries to this day?
- Who would dare starting a discussion on withdrawing the law (what would your motivation be?)


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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 18
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 11:55:40 AM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		Though I agree with the implied answer to the 2 first questions.

I think that the third question is obvious : to tell the true story to our children. Japanese are regularly pointed out because they don't tell the truth, the law prevent the truth to be told in historical game or historical reckonning) so it seems obvious to me that this is a sound basis to change it.

And in country where the law is not, I think we could attack the game designer for negationism.


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Best regards

Skanvak

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Post #: 19
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 12:44:06 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Skanvak, if I read your answer you seem to connect the swastika to the truth. You can still tell the truth without showing possible offensive symbols in videogames... Or can't you?

Problem with swastika and in fact a lot of other Nazi symbols is that they are, till this day, being used by groups of people who do not appreciate the differences between human beings. In fact, they think the problems they are facing are being caused by certain groups of people. Does that ring a bell?

Symbols from Stalins Soviet Union, or Imperial Japan are perhaps used for the same purpose but seamingly to a far lesser extent...

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 20
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 12:57:59 PM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		Symbol of imperial Japan navy does not relate to an ideology so it is not offensive. Any way the swastika is not forbidden for being offensive but for being a political symbol of a forbidden political faction in Germany.

The only reason one is used and the other not is purely relate to who won the war and political strength. And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.



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Best regards

Skanvak

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Post #: 21
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 1:09:16 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Interesting point of view. I am not german so I am not sure how it is handled there. I wonder how history is presented in German classrooms?

It was a mandatory subject during my school carreer. For example, I remember when I was about 14 years old and we watched Schindler's list.

Fact is that history somehow is destined to repeat itself.. Mostly because people just dont know...or care. And that worries me as well.

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 22
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 1:19:16 PM   
Muzrub


Posts: 1780
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
Status: offline 		Why is the Swastika not in the game in 2011- in the 1970's that particular question may have had some legs- but now, things have simply changed (for the better or not).

On the other hand the question is irrelevant considering the Mod communities that surround every game that is or ever has been released-

 Hort Wessel may well have asked is concentration camp labour modelled in the game?

Because that question is as pointless and personally not relevant to any game no matter how historical it claims to be!

Games at their core are supposed to be fun, not political footballs.
And after looking at this thread I think Horst Wessel has had his laugh stirring the pot...


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Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
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Post #: 23
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 1:32:45 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)



Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.


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RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 1:44:35 PM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)



Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.


quote:

ly non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.


Yes, and all the conspirator were in favor of the previous move made by Hitler or were outright nazi (Rommel). So I guess both points stand fast. As for Guderain he could have been Hitler's man while not sharing the nazi ideal because precisely, there was non-nazi related legitimate reasons to go to war for Germany.

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Skanvak

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Post #: 25
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:02:57 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Many of the conspirators were in fact not in favor of Hitler's previous moves. Some of them had fallen out with the regime long before the war, such as Beck.

The most generous interpretation of Guderian I can come up with is that he was a technical enthusiast who allowed himself to be seduced by Hitler. But it was a seduction, not a rape. It is no accident this is the man Hitler turned to after the 1944 assassination attempt to become chief of staff; and Guderian agreed to institute the Nazi salute, sit on the kangaroo courts that prosecuted conspirators, allowed nazi leadership officers into the army, etc.

Only at the very end when the war was well and truly lost did he fall out with Hitler. We can admire Guderian's skill but it shouldn't blind us to the way he prostituted himself and his talent to the Nazis and became one of the regime's most favored generals.

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RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:25:25 PM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
... I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)...


I'm a German, and the laws against nazi symbols are most certainly not meant to try to hide facism. On the contrary, it's part of a fight against the possibility of any nazi-resurgence. There is a lot of awareness of Germany's guilt, actually probably even too much. It's often tedious for us born decades after the war to be told time and again how Germany and Germans are supposed to behave and what responsibilities we have because of the past. For example Germans are free to lie about every historical fact - with one exception: if you deny that Hitler-Germany killed Jews this counts as a crime.

As to Guderian - it was nothing special for Guderian to agree with Germany annexing Austria, the Sudetes and part of Poland. Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871. And the other provinces had been German or Austrian until 1918 when they were "stolen" after WWI.
And it's also nothing special for a soldier to make a decision to help his country in a war even if he does not agree with the current government.

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 27
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:30:05 PM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Why are the symbols needed at all? The political aspects play no part in the game so why do we need them on the map?

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Post #: 28
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:50:33 PM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.

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Post #: 29
RE: Hammer and sickle - 2/5/2011 2:57:50 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi.


This one of the most absurd things I've read so far on this forum.

Svastika ban is law in Germany because Allied Control Council for Germany in 1945 banned NSDAP and its symbols. In the Nuremberg trials NSDAP was declared a criminal organization. Federal German Republic took over Allied laws to the Liberation of the German People from Nationalsocialism and militarism" in article 139 of the Constitition. Based on this there are laws for punishing peace treason, high treason and harming democratic constitutional state ("Rechtsstaat"), (§§ 80–92b). § 86a deals with "the use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations", punishing this with a three year imprisonment or a fine. Explicitly excluded are cases of civic education, of defending against unconstitutional acts, of art, science, research, teaching, news coverage about current affairs or history or the like.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakenkreuz#Umgang_mit_Hakenkreuzdarstellungen_seit_1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

In Germany after a long phase of denying, 1960s leftist student revolt unveiling the "fathers vices", since some thirty years now "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" plays no minor part in public discourse. Disputes happen all the time, most recently frex about the role of German Foreign Ministry in the "Third Reich".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.


Guderian was a Technocrat who served the regime in an important position. Like other high commanders he was bribed with an estate in Western Poland. He was no member of the NSDAP. But given his position he sympathized with the aims of the Nazis.

Frankly I don't see any danger that Germany's responsibility for the WW2 and for the Shoa will be forgotten.


< Message edited by wosung -- 2/5/2011 4:08:06 PM >

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Post #: 30
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